BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: Hoselrockets on March 04, 2015, 11:02:07 AM
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I saw this term on a FB page and was wondering what exactly it is? Anyone drill their balls this way or have experience with it? Wanted insight before I decided to spend the $12.95 that he is asking. Thanks!!
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Where'd you see it and who is 'he'?
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Where'd you see it and who is 'he'?
Joe Slowinski's new drilling technique
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Interesting 'new'...
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Yes it's Joe's page but I can't really tell what it does. There is a picture that looks like the ball is more in the palm? Just not sure.....
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It is the proper to fit a bowler...we talk abt it in our fitting manual (r)eVolve
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I'm sorry, but I'm no where near the skill level and knowledge like most of you on BR when it comes to drilling. ALso, I haven't read the article of Joe S.
But, how can there be a new way of drilling someones grip'n holes to match the person's hand comfortably and with correcting timing?
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I bought it just to check it out......going to try it but waiting on a response from him with some questions I had. He is quick to take the money, not so quick with replies to questions.
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More in palm? I'm guessing drilling fingers off the t and off centering the thumb holehole
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I took the plunge, figured it was only $12.95. If it worked it worked and if it didn't it, well was only $12.95. Unlike the tri-grip i was happy to take the risk.
Anyway, even though I'm really happy with my current fit i found that the ball fitted a lot more comfortably in the hand and made my release feel a lot more effortless. Immediately i noticed that my speed and rev rate increased and even my track was slightly higher then before.
Straight off the bat I hit games of 225, 238 and 247, usually i average 210 in our house but shot execution seems to have improved. From what i can see, I'm impressed with his method.
I'm implementing it on a few more bowlers as I'm curious to see how it effects them.
If you're skeptical I'd say just go for it, you've got nothing to lose really.
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Can you provide a picture of the layout I'm curious.
I took the plunge, figured it was only $12.95. If it worked it worked and if it didn't it, well was only $12.95. Unlike the tri-grip i was happy to take the risk.
Anyway, even though I'm really happy with my current fit i found that the ball fitted a lot more comfortably in the hand and made my release feel a lot more effortless. Immediately i noticed that my speed and rev rate increased and even my track was slightly higher then before.
Straight off the bat I hit games of 225, 238 and 247, usually i average 210 in our house but shot execution seems to have improved. From what i can see, I'm impressed with his method.
I'm implementing it on a few more bowlers as I'm curious to see how it effects them.
If you're skeptical I'd say just go for it, you've got nothing to lose really.
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These aren't the best pics but was a bit awkward trying to take the pics
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.812671918804805.1073741842.508831489188851&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.812671918804805.1073741842.508831489188851&type=1)
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I'm curious on this as my grip hasn't changed in years and I am beginning to get old mans hand...
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If you're thinking about changing your grip then I'd just go for it, but just start by doing it on a ball you don't really care about or never got on with, you might be in for a surprise. I never got on with my Hy-Road, could never get it to match up. Now i've changed the grip on it everything just seems to have come together.
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I can't see the difference is it the offset thumb??
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Hard to tell by the pics. Are you able to post side-by-side pics so we can see a difference and maybe explain what the difference is?
I'm interested in this. Does it help with hand pain? I'm getting older and getting joint pain in the fingers.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
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Nope, no offset thumb. It's based on the anatomy of the hand and how the hand sits when it's open.
It's my normal span but with different orientations on the pitches, it's a similar method to the CLT method for drilling the fingers.
Joe has documented the procedure well and it's really simple to follow, not to mention if you have any issues then just give him a quick message on Facebook and you should be away in no time (got back to me quite quickly when i asked him)/
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Hard to tell by the pics. Are you able to post side-by-side pics so we can see a difference and maybe explain what the difference is?
I'm interested in this. Does it help with hand pain? I'm getting older and getting joint pain in the fingers.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!
If you're experiencing joint pains then i would seriously consider this, i used to have a bit of pain in the ring finger due to an ill fitting ball years ago which flares up every now but it seems to be fine after last night's set.
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Would it be plugging the current thumb and redrilling or would it have to be fully plugged and everything layed out again?
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you'd have to fully plug the ball.
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In all sports, our goal is to continue to learn more about anatomy, physiology and biomechanics. Accordingly, we still have a long way to go. I have spent considerable time over the last year working around biomechanical concepts to help improve the physical game and now fitting and drilling. To be honest, the sport of bowling is so far behind other sports in the areas of sport science. We need to work hard to understand more.
The ADT is based on how the hand naturally moves anatomically. So, the technique requires both an adjustment in fitting as well as specific drilling process to align the hand better to it's natural movement axes. The results have been very positive.
I am giving the technique to all IBPSIA members for free. Many bowlers and coaches are buying the newsletter as it articulates why this technique works so well and simultaneously reduces wrist tension and enhances performance (freer swing and improved ability to manipulate at release).
I apologize if I missed your e-mail. I receive many questions daily on FB and by e-mail. I do my best to respond quickly to each. If you would forward it again, I can respond to your question.
"Testing of the ADT has seen the removal of pain for a bowler who had chronic pain while bowling each and every time he bowled for 2 years. With the fit change, the performance for this bowler also improved. He averaged over 240 in his national selection for games 3 - 7 in dual pattern Seoul and Mexico City. He won 2 of 6 blocks in the trials and earned a spot on his national team for the first time. Below is another bowler with a before and after showing how the hand sits on the ball better with the Anatomical Drilling Technique. Reduced tension in the wrist, a freer swing and an improved release."
""I can say that I noticed many differences:
a. more time up the back.
b. higher track, having a better ball read at the same time.
c. could transition to different releases, easier.
d. better aiming, when visualizing 3 spots on the lane, easier and repetitively.
e. swing was better on the way that I managed to get the ball higher and feel the 0 gravity spot at the highest point, more profoundly .
f. no wrist tension, of course, no fingers - thumb issue, at all.
g. The only "negative", if I could say, is that because of the difference in left lateral thumb pitch, (I had already 1/16 and now I have 9/16), I have nor room overall in thumb hole, but with 2 tapes now it's totally normal.
Other than that, everything is a pleasant surprise, for the new point of view and the different options given to our beloved sport.
I think you've done an excellent job and as a fellow coach I feel to congratulate you and deposit my admiration for the way you approach things and the help you give us to continue.""
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152827338850208&set=a.84232765207.80526.590145207&type=1)
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Thanks for the reply Joe...I already send paid for this and look forward to reading more on this concept. Much appreciated.
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A comparison of the ADT and the Tri-Grip was posted today at
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10826
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Quick question. When drilling the fingers do the grips go in line with the new 25 degree angle or the original center line with the layout?
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I put a few holes in an old plastic ball. The was just a "dry run" to go through the steps and get an idea of the feel. Drilling was pretty straight forward. No more difficult than a standard drill. I can feel the the ball lays in my palm somewhat flatter. The grip is comfortable. Can't comment on strain/release yet.
I think that I am sufficiently happy to give it a shot on one of the balls in my arsenal. I may plug one up and redrill.
S^2
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Be nice someone make a before and after video of them bowling that way proves the more Rev and more up the back etc
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i purchased it, and will be taking it to my driller tonight to see what he thinks and have him punch up a ball so i can try it. will post review once i try it out.
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i purchased it, and will be taking it to my driller tonight to see what he thinks and have him punch up a ball so i can try it. will post review once i try it out.
How can this be purchased if a person doesn't belong to Facebook?
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I'm sure if you PM JS he'll give his PayPal info or something
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I don't have Facebook either. I just emailed him and did it that way
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You can purchase the detailed PDF by clicking https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=UDFWRJTMGSFT4
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You can purchase the detailed PDF by clicking https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=UDFWRJTMGSFT4
With my always looking for things that might lead to improvement, I sent payment for this
Anatomical Drilling Technique a few minutes ago. I look forward to receiving it and trying it.
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I quickly punched up an old blue dot we had in the back room with ADT and TOPS 3.. I am going to need to do some more tweaking and testing, it didn't feel all that comfortable or sit on the hand any different.. Also, I had the same question, do the inserts go on the ADT line or go in like standard?
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The inserts need to be placed in the anatomical direction of the fingers (the new anatomical drill line) as articulated on page 13. This drill line is for the finger pitches. So, the inserts should be placed on or near this line. As always, align the fingers and then match the insert shape to the player's fingers.
If the ball did not sit on the ball better, the implementation was not 100% correct as this is an immediate reality if the steps are followed. The directions are very clear (step-by-step) with photo to show exactly what to do.
In addition, if the original fit was not consistent with current IBPSIA fitting principles, the implementation will not be correct as this is the starting point for adjustments and alignment.
Due to the complexity of the TOPS3 by itself, I recommend that the first implementation should be done without TOPS3 unless you or your driller are experienced drillers of TOPS3. TOPS3 requires several practice tests to ensure the shape and depth of the top tier match the anatomical nature of each unique thumb.
I am available for questions always and this is important for the first implementation. Coach@bowlingknowledge.info
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I honestly was hoping I would not like this fit as changing equipment is not cheap. But that did not work out. It definitely comes of the hand a lot cleaner and more explosive at the release. I threw about 20 shots with it then tried throwing my old span. My old span felt contorted trying to get it off my hand, I could really feel the drag on my thumb. Also I felt I was lot more accurate and able to close up my angles. Definetly worth giving a shot. Will bowl a full league set Tuesday and update.
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Ok......it got my curiosity. I just spent the 13$
Got to see what is about. I'm always looking for ways to improve things
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Is it a real book or PDF file
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it's a pdf.
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In addition to bowlers commenting on how the hand sits better on the ball, these are quotes of those who have tried the Anatomical Drilling Technique:
"I will be recommending that all bowlers who come to me at least Consider the anatomical grip. It is similar to the tri grip but the instructions are more scientific, thorough, and precise."
"Anyway, even though I'm really happy with my current fit i found that the ball fitted a lot more comfortably in the hand and made my release feel a lot more effortless. Immediately i noticed that my speed and rev rate increased and even my track was slightly higher then before. Straight off the bat I hit games of 225, 238 and 247, usually i average 210 in our house but shot execution seems to have improved. From what i can see, I'm impressed with his method."
"Wow! Amazing how comfortable it is! Drilled it up for league last night, got there late no time to practice throw with it. Decided to just to roll with it anyway....223, 289, 247. Have to work with the lateral pitch a little but not soreness in wrist or forearm. Thank you so much for releasing this drilling technique."
"I honestly was hoping I would not like this fit as changing equipment is not cheap. But that did not work out. It definitely comes of the hand a lot cleaner and more explosive at the release. I threw about 20 shots with it then tried throwing my old span. My old span felt contorted trying to get it off my hand, I could really feel the drag on my thumb. Also I felt I was lot more accurate and able to close up my angles. Definitely worth giving a shot. Will bowl a full league set Tuesday and update."
"got this new drilling technique.... and to be fair it was strange getting used to it during the first game which was a 164 second game carried on using the ball and got used to how it felt I ended up hitting a 256 and the last game still with the same ball I hit a 210 to make a 630 series. So all in all it felt weird at first but once I got used to it, it just felt more fluent off the hand and had a better reaction on the lane ."
" "I can say that I noticed many differences:
a. more time up the back.
b. higher track, having a better ball read at the same time.
c. could transition to different releases, easier.
d. better aiming, when visualizing 3 spots on the lane, easier and repetitively.
e. swing was better on the way that I managed to get the ball higher and feel the 0 gravity spot at the highest point, more profoundly .
f. no wrist tension, of course, no fingers - thumb issue, at all.
g. The only "negative", if I could say, is that because of the difference in left lateral thumb pitch, (I had already 1/16 and now I have 9/16), I have nor room overall in thumb hole, but with 2 tapes now it's totally normal.
Other than that, everything is a pleasant surprise, for the new point of view and the different options given to our beloved sport.
I thing you've done an excellent job and as a fellow coach I feel to congratulate you and deposit my admiration for the way you approach things and the help you give us to continue."
"I've seen both methods [Tri-Grip & ADT] and I feel both are based off of similar science/methods. I have also drilled a ball with both methods and tried both grips. I would say what Joe has is much easier and quicker to do and for me felt much better. It has been a year or two since I looked at TriGrip (it wasn't for me) but if I remember correctly both add more than standard left lateral pitch in the thumb. I would also say that Joe's method seems to better transfer how the hand works/grips to the actual layout on the ball (at least in my mind).
I've been doing something really similar to the ADT method for a couple of years now but what Joe suggested tweaks what I am doing just a bit. It also felt better than what I currently have but also have only bowled a couple games with it. I feel like I release the ball cleaner and I can manipulate my release much easier. The ball also sits down on my palm much nicer and almost feels like it does if I were to grip the ball with only my fingers (leave my thumb out). I've always felt like I have to turn my elbow/shoulder in order to clear the ball with my thumb and I didn't have this feeling when I tried the ADT method, which now has me intrigued. I've never had wrist or finger pain in the past so I can't comment on those.
So far my only issue is on spare shots my thumb rubs a bit on the inside (old grip thumb rubs a bit on outside on strike shot). I talked to Joe about this and he suggested I add an additional 1/64 to the top of my oval to combat this. I haven't tried this yet but have a ball drilled with this now and am planning on throwing it today.
I would definitely suggest trying out Joe's method."
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11024619_10152827338850208_1422547568116187464_n.jpg?oh=2ccd1e98b40e37ea7a9612a6c4b9a55f&oe=55875DCB&__gda__=1435576756_6edc9993a1691d6e6a1bf856052ce863)
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when you buy it, is it immediate download?
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when you buy it, is it immediate download?
Yes ....
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I'm trying it tomorrow.
I have to commend Coach Slowinski for his willingness to help. He has been very thorough with my many questions. Very good guy!!
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I'm trying it tomorrow.
I have to commend Coach Slowinski for his willingness to help. He has been very thorough with my many questions. Very good guy!!
+1 .... Same here. He has been both great and helpful. My only hold up a the moment is my driller. For what ever reason, I can't get a hold of him at the moment.
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I drilled up an old hyroad using the ADT. Coach Slowinski was very helpful. So far I've only thrown it on my basement stub lane (full approach with 32 feet of lane), and I noticed the ball tracks closer to my fingers than before; it went from 3" to 2". Track near thumb stayed the same at 2" from thumb. I will try it out on a regular lane today and update. So far the ball comes off the hand real nice. 8)
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when you buy it, is it immediate download?
Yes ....
Ok I bought it from the Pay Pal site. I don't see anyway to download it from there. Where do I download it?
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Joe will email you the pdf.
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I paid for it on March 5th, and I still haven't got the file :(.
drillbit
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Scamerino???
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Email him at joseph_slowinski@yahoo.com
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I got mine the next day
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I am FAR from an expert or advanced ball driller. However, I have drilled several balls and have a good understanding of layouts, pitches, etc. Is the anatomical drilling technique PDF for only an ADVANCED ball driller or do you believe someone like myself could follow it and get it right?
Thanks all!
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It's pretty simple and traight forward.If you already understand drilling and different pitches ,you'll have no problem with this application
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Very straight forward and easily reproducible. Joe hit the nail on the head with this one, and it's much more affordable than the tri-fit grip.
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You need to pay really close attention to the video he'll send you. I didn't and almost started off with the wrong degree of angle !
I emailed Joe my degree and he said it sounded wrong, so I rewatched the video and I did it wrong to start.I'm not the one to read instructions either 😆
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You need to pay really close attention to the video he'll send you. I didn't and almost started off with the wrong degree of angle !
I emailed Joe my degree and he said it sounded wrong, so I rewatched the video and I did it wrong to start.I'm not the one to read instructions either 😆
I sent Joe an Email about the angle and waiting on a reply from him. He says most people have a 23-25 degree angle. I followed the instructions and came up with 30* for me. did it over and over 3 times and still come up with 30*, so I have Emailed him about it. If I push the loose skin in the web between my thumb and index finger down tight, I get 26* and if I don't I get 30*. I finally got hold of my driller tonight. He will plug ball and will drill it this coming Monday March 16th.
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I think I'm the odd one here... Drilled one up this past weekend and threw it for the first time tonight in league. Couldn't seem to get out of the thumb hole. Hung up quite a few shots...Threw a decent shot, then would hang and yank it an arrow left. Stuck with it through the first game and a half, then had to make a switch back to my regular layout to prevent tanking the entire night.
I'm going to give it a little more time (will throw a few practice games this coming weekend), but so far it's not quite there for me. On a side note, the few shots that did manage to come off clean, did feel good.
Scott
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I came up with 28 degrees and drilled it that way and feels good. I am going to take the pitch back to 3/8 left in the thumb and I will be good. I have had trouble on heavier stuff and this seems to have helped.....raised my track back up over an inch closer to my thumb from where it was.
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I've already emailed Joe a couple of times, and still nothing.
Maybe I should have him try to send it to another email account? I've had troubles getting stuff through my main one in the past, but not for the last couple of years.
drillbit
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Mine when done right was 28° also
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I've tried the grip as well and my thoughts are the same as Strapper_Squared. I've had difficulty getting out of the ball cleanly and consistently. I've tried the grip now with 2 different thumb pitches and span adjustments. I've drilled my own equipment for many years now and have even used the Max - Y grip with success, so the ADT isn't as foreign to me as it would be to others. I've found it hard to vary release techniques. I feel I'm being locked into one release to get the ball off my hand cleanly. When it does come off cleanly the ball reaction is very good. I'm on the fence right now with the grip but will keep experimenting with it for a little while longer.
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I came up with 30 degrees for mine..
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So what about your spare ball.....can it be done with this drilling and any benefits or disadvantages with it when throwing straight
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I also came up with 30 degrees. 30 does not seem uncommon.
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I've already emailed Joe a couple of times, and still nothing.
Maybe I should have him try to send it to another email account? I've had troubles getting stuff through my main one in the past, but not for the last couple of years.
drillbit
Give it another day as he has always got back to me soon, but 2 Emails went unanswered for the first time today, so I assume he was really busy elsewhere.
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If the base fit is good, the release will be cleaner, changing the track and enabling them to alter the release.
The initial fit, before ADT adjustments must adhere to the following:
(*) pitches in the fingers should match the finger flexibility of the individual. This will lead to every human being having reverse in the fingers as the anatomical nature of the fingers would require reverse to match the natural flexibility.
(*) 4 1/4" as the span base for 0 front-to-back based on measuring the thumb to the 1/2 way point on the middle finger (between the two joints).
(*) starting away pitch that matches the hand (1/8" - 3/8" away) before adding the additional lateral. This suggests a starting away of 1/2" to 3/4" lateral away.
(*) Oval angle verified on the anatomical drill line for the thumb.
(*) Finger anatomical drill line measured exactly as shown clearly in the video
For those who are having difficulty clearing the thumb, there is something not consistent with the above principles in your attempt to implement. If your starting fit was not consistent with these principles, it doesn't match what I stated as an IBPSIA base fit.
I respond to all e-mail messages as quickly as I can. Please send me your grip specs used for the ADT grip that you tried and I will make recommendations for you. I want to help. But, I have made recommendations to some and these have been disregarded with the individual saying the release is not clean. If you follow my guidelines, you will get to a point where the release is cleaner significantly. If the tension in the wrist is not reduced and the swing more free, your implementation is not consistent with ADT principles.
I have been on an 11 hour flight and have a small layover in Paris and I am responding.
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I drilled up a Nib jazz that I had lying around with this new drilling methed.My thumb before was 1/8" forward x 0" lateral. My pap is 4 3/4" x 0" (Rt hand).First point, the layout felt really comfortable in my hand. I already drill a offset thumb w/Clt.I went to this method totally to the tee.The fingers are at more of angle than before which feels good. My thumb is now 1/8" forward by 3/8" left pitch. My big problem is now I track half way over my thumb. My pap went to 6"x1/4" up.I'm not sure why I tracked so much over the thumb with my up the back release. I don't even come close with my other layout. I'm thinking maybe it's the ball (Jazz=very weak) and drill combination ( pin down in center of the grip ).I'm going to drill up a Nib Brutal Nightmare with the pin high and 2" buffer off my Val line . I'll post in a few days with the results
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If you have not received a reply from an e-mail sent to me, please send it again as I make an effort to reply to each and every e-mail.
I just received the following message from a bowler who changed the initial ADT effort based on my feedback to him.
"Thanks Coach!
My hand feels completely relaxed while delivering the ball with this fitting.
No strain or pain in my hand during or after bowling."
I also received this feedback from another bowler who just had the ADT drilled at a shop this week.
"First test of the ADT on one of my bowling balls. My first impression is that the ball feels like an extension of my hand. My swing is more fluid and the release is much easier."
If you have questions, please send me an e-mail so I can discuss the grip with you. Most people, who have some issues, begin with a base grip which is significantly far from what I consider a base fit. So, the adjustments need to be significantly more for them.
If the base fit is good, the release will be cleaner, changing the track and enabling them to alter the release.
The initial fit, before ADT adjustments must adhere to the following:
(*) pitches in the fingers should match the finger flexibility of the individual. This will lead to every human being having reverse in the fingers as the anatomical nature of the fingers would require reverse to match the natural flexibility.
(*) 4 1/4" as the span base for 0 front-to-back based on measuring the thumb to the 1/2 way point on the middle finger (between the two joints).
(*) starting away pitch that matches the hand (1/8" - 3/8" away) before adding the additional lateral. This suggests a starting away of 1/2" to 3/4" lateral away.
(*) Oval angle verified on the anatomical drill line for the thumb.
(*) Finger anatomical drill line measured exactly as shown clearly in the video
For those who are having difficulty clearing the thumb, there is something not consistent with the above principles in your attempt to implement. If your starting fit was not consistent with these principles, it doesn't match what I stated as an IBPSIA base fit.
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Joe, I have 0 F/R in fingers and am going to add 1/8 reverse per your message to me a few days ago. My question here is ... by adding 1/8 reverse, do I need to lengthen span maybe 1/16 or reduce thumb F/R pitch 1/16, etc ?
I hope to be able to drill the ADT grip Monday night.
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Ok.........I drilled up a Nib Brutal nightmare with the pin 21/2" above my ring finger and 11/2" from my Val line.I noticed the track didn't flare over my thumb but does come really close. I'm not liking the 1/8" forward in my thumb because I hang on the ball now. My release was a lot cleaner before. I'm going to plug the thumb take out the 1/8" forward to see if that cleans up my release.I also noticed that the angle of degree changes a little with the new layout.I use a IT thumb from vise so that's a easy fix to redo the slug IT to the proper angle. I'm thinking a change of 5-8° will work just fine.I'll make those changes tomorrow and post my results
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Pictures please!! Curious
Ok.........I drilled up a Nib Brutal nightmare with the pin 21/2" above my ring finger and 11/2" from my Val line.I noticed the track didn't flare over my thumb but does come really close. I'm not liking the 1/8" forward in my thumb because I hang on the ball now. My release was a lot cleaner before. I'm going to plug the thumb take out the 1/8" forward to see if that cleans up my release.I also noticed that the angle of degree changes a little with the new layout.I use a IT thumb from vise so that's a easy fix to redo the slug IT to the proper angle. I'm thinking a change of 5-8° will work just fine.I'll make those changes tomorrow and post my results
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I'll get those tomorrow
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Today, I sent-out clarification for starting pitches as there are simply too many variations on where the fits start. I recent sent-out an IBPSIA ADT version to members. I included more specific starting point pitch guidance. So, I am doing the same with everyone. It was truly surprising to see so much variation. Start with the recommendations and then make the ADT adjustments and the result will be a good starting place. With all grips, there will need to be follow-up adjustments.
I posted the below in the Bowlingchat forum as well.
My goal is to help bowlers have a better experience. And, the feedback has been very positive from so many.
As with any new process, there are implementation challenges. And, I am dealing with these to help everyone have a good experience. Accordingly, I am sending-out clarification on a starting point for the fit before making ADT adjustments.
There are too many variations for a general starting fit. So, perhaps, the discussions everyone is having about this and other drilling/fitting procedures will lead to more anatomically-based fitting for more bowlers which is good for everyone.
Too many who are having issues are putting their own spin on the process. For example, the gripping power comes from the thumb to ring finger. The pinky is not a major part of the human gripping process. It isn't simply about the direction the thumb faces but how the hand grips. So, I encourage to try the process as intended. The starting pitch guidance will help those who are having some issues with their initial ADT test.
If you give the process a change, the outcome will be good. And, I am very proud to help many eliminate pain and stress in their wrist while improving their performance with a freer swing and cleaner release.
If you have sent me a clarification e-mail and I haven't responded please send your e-mail again. I have been travelling continents over the last few days.
My initial recommendations for lateral thumb for those who have asked come from the fact that the thumb sits to the outside of the thumb. So, when you tell me your starting point was 0 or under, it isn't an acceptable starting point for the ADT process. This is not anatomically acceptable.
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It eventually comes down to the same thing. You may have a very good starting point, but there are going to be a need for tweaks and maybe several to get things exact.I knew this going into the process,that's why I'm plugging the ball again.I think for many people that may not be a luxury. You have to add in the expense at some point or have a driller that's willing to work with you on those expenses. That being said, I have noticed a better feel of the ball on my hand. I just need to tweak it a bit to get the track back down and off my thumb on weaker balls. I love a good challenge !!
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I'm going to plug the thumb take out the 1/8" forward to see if that cleans up my release.
No real need to plug, you can make that small a change by using a slug. That's quicker and most likely less expensive. -- JohnP
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I knew that, but for me it's cheaper to just plug half of the thumb and redrill.I do all my own drilling so I have all the ways and means at my disposal
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Joe, on Step # 2 it says .... place the Pro Sect at the center of the bridge on the
layout center line that you drew in step one. I understand that part, however ....
The picture shows the base of the Pro Sect on the center of bridge, and it also shows the base of the Pro Sect above the edge of the lines where the finger holes will be drilled. What is this distance above these lines is the base of the Pro Sect supposed to be placed in marking the degree of angle for the drilling of the finger pitches?
I am hoping to to drill my ball with the ADT drilling Monday evening and need this information prior to drilling it. I sent you an Email with this same question in hope that you will see it either there or here and reply before Monday evening.
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Joe, on Step # 2 it says .... place the Pro Sect at the center of the bridge on the
layout center line that you drew in step one. I understand that part, however ....
The picture shows the base of the Pro Sect on the center of bridge, and it also shows the base of the Pro Sect above the edge of the lines where the finger holes will be drilled. What is this distance above these lines is the base of the Pro Sect supposed to be placed in marking the degree of angle for the drilling of the finger pitches?
I am hoping to to drill my ball with the ADT drilling Monday evening and need this information prior to drilling it. I sent you an Email with this same question in hope that you will see it either there or here and reply before Monday evening.
Brick,
If you get the reply by email, could you post it here? I was wondering about the same thing myself.
Thanks.
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center of the bridge is it's narrowest part, not where the bridge cut lines intersect the cut lines of the fingers.
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Joe is currently cruising around Germany so have patience
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Joe, on Step # 2 it says .... place the Pro Sect at the center of the bridge on the
layout center line that you drew in step one. I understand that part, however ....
The picture shows the base of the Pro Sect on the center of bridge, and it also shows the base of the Pro Sect above the edge of the lines where the finger holes will be drilled. What is this distance above these lines is the base of the Pro Sect supposed to be placed in marking the degree of angle for the drilling of the finger pitches?
I am hoping to to drill my ball with the ADT drilling Monday evening and need this information prior to drilling it. I sent you an Email with this same question in hope that you will see it either there or here and reply before Monday evening.
Brick,
If you get the reply by email, could you post it here? I was wondering about the same thing myself.
Thanks.
M1 2 AZ, here is what I received from Joe ... Measure that angle by placing the pro sect at the half-way point on the
bridge (on the layout center line and 1/2 way between the fingers). Does
that help?
I am still not 100% clear here, but think it may mean ... if you draw around the finger grips for finger holes like he shows in one picture, then place the Pro Sect in center of bridge and the center between the image of the holes you draw on the ball which would be the narrowest point up the bridge.
That may be what itsallaboutme is refering to where he said ... center of the bridge is it's narrowest part, not where the bridge cut lines intersect the cut lines of the fingers.
Joe is going to make a video of actually measuring a person's hand today around 2000 over in Germany.
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"cruising around" working in Germany
Draw an imaginary line from left to right through the fingers. This would be the center of the bridge on the layout center line as well as the point 1/2 the distance of the finger height.
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"cruising around" working in Germany
Draw an imaginary line from left to right through the fingers. This would be the center of the bridge on the layout center line as well as the point 1/2 the distance of the finger height.
For people that use grips, the drilled finger hole for most is 31/32. Half of that would be 1/2" on the small side, so if I measure up that amount from the finger cut line, that should give me half way up. I think that I am ready to drill now. Hope my driller has my ball plugged and ready tomorrow (Mon) evening.
My thumb to finger angle is 30*. Natural line of thumb is 1/16 if I did that part right, so I will drill 9/16 or 5/8 out pitch on thumb. Thumb reverse pitch is currently 3/16 and lateral is 1/16 out. My span is 4 1/4 x 4 3/8. I am going to leave thumb reverse pitch at 3/16 to start. I am going to change span back to my old span of 4 1/4 x 4 1/4 when I bowled much better than currently as my RF span has been too long on the 4 3/8 and finger nail hits the abck of thumb hole and not enough ball on the pad of my RF.
If anyone sees any errors here, correct me please......
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At 4 1/4, the forward/reverse pitch on the thumb should be zero
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The span is cut to cut or center to center ?
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At 4 1/4, the forward/reverse pitch on the thumb should be zero
Ok Joe, I will try that and see how it comes out. Will I have to add 1/8 reverse to fingers with this 0 F/R thumb pitch since this 0 is going to be tightening the span?
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Brickguy and itsallaboutme, thanks for the info.
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At 4 1/4, the forward/reverse pitch on the thumb should be zero
Ok Joe, I will try that and see how it comes out. Will I have to add 1/8 reverse to fingers with this 0 F/R thumb pitch since this 0 is going to be tightening the span?
I am worrying about this 0 F/R Thumb pitch but will try it. The reason for my worry is because I don't have a limber thumb as many people do. It is not real stiff, but it is not limber either. I can't lay it down against the palm of my hand nor touch my pinkie with it. I can lay it part way down to my palm but not enough to touch my palm. Thus my question about ... I was 1/8 reverse thumb pitch, but recently increased it to 3/16 as an experiment. If I drop my current reverse from 3/16 or 1/8 down to 0, then must I add reverse to fingers and if so, will 1/8 aded will be enough?
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I'm finding out that the more left I go in the thumb, the more my thumb hangs on the ball. I don't have any reverse in my thumb and I'm not sure I want any. I like being at 0" or 1/8"forward in the thumb for a real relaxed grip. I'm plugging the ball again to try less left pitch.I've tried 6/16" left and 7/16" and 5/16".I'm currently going to try 3/16" left with 1/8" away in my fingers.I'll post the results later in the week
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Have you verified your oval angle on the thumb through ring finger anatomical drill line?
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The span is cut to cut or center to center ?
Full spans are gripping surface to gripping surface. Cut to cut spans are used by the driller to tell him where the pilot holes for the grips and/or slug are placed to obtain the correct full spans. I don't use center to center spans at all, other drillers might but I don't know what for. -- JohnP
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I see
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My driller drilled my ball this evening, but I didn't get to try it as 38 lanes in this 40 lane house were full of league bowlers and the 2 vacant lanes they had, they reserve them in case a league bowler's lane breaks down.
Anyhow, he used 30* to drill the thumb to finger angle.
He drilled the thumb at 0 F/R and 9/16 out (left) lateral as on my regular grip I had 1/16 out lateral, so he added 1/2" to that. He drew a line from the thumb thru the ring finger to establish the 2nd Anatomical center line (thumb)
He added 1/8 reverse to fingers and the span fit seems good with pad of fingers properly seated on grips and not having the finger nails touching the back of the grips.
To the best of my knowledge, my driller followed the instructions perfectly
I don't know if I will get a chance to try the ball Tuesday or not as I have league Tuesday. Might be able to try it after league. I will try throwing it 1or 2 times when throwing warm-up balls for league.
The ball feels good other than the gips are not quite as comfortable turned to the right to match the fingers being turned to the right. When I back them off a wee bit to the left from that position, they feel better, but then that would be partially defeating the angle the fingers were drilled, I think, but could be wrong there.
I will report again oncne I have had a chance to throw it.
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The key to the best and appropriate feeling of the inserts is to match the curvature of the top of the finger to match the curvature of the insert. If the measured angle is done correctly, there will be a marginal adjustments based on the uniqueness of the fingers. But, you want this to feel good.
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The key to the best and appropriate feeling of the inserts is to match the curvature of the top of the finger to match the curvature of the insert. If the measured angle is done correctly, there will be a marginal adjustments based on the uniqueness of the fingers. But, you want this to feel good.
Thanks Joe ... That is what I will do. My fingers felt a bit twisted when the front side of grips was matched up to the direction the finger holes were drilled, but when I backed them back left a bit similar to what you said to do, it was way more comfortable.
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Based on everyone's knowledge of the drilling and their experience with it, how important is the oval and oval angles?
I have never had an oval due to not have the proper equipment. We just have a standard drill press. I am not sure if you can do all the fancy oval work with that or not. Anyways, I was fit by a certified ball fitter and he put in some oval angles. The 2 balls he drilled don't feel any better than the others.
I ask this question because I am extremely intrigued by the ADT and want to give it a try this week. However, my attempt will be without oval. Will this dampen the feel of the new grip or have minimal effect?
Thank you all.
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For me and the people I drill for, the feel of the thumb is extremely important. To the point of if the customer isn't 100% satisfied with the feel/fit I trash can that thumb and do it again. I do the same for all of my customers as I do for my self.As to the pitch and oval of the thumb,I come to the conclusion that the degree of oval stays the same on the ADT layout at least for me. I've tried lining up the Oval with the center of my ring finger and that locked in my thumb to much. My thumb is very tight and conforming in my thumb slug, so my angle of degree hadsno variance .For me it was better to line up my IT thumb in a straight line with the center of my grip
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Question for Joe Slowinski ...
I measured my "natural thumb to finger angle" prior to going to get my ball drilled last night and came up with 30*. My driller measured this angle and he also came up with 30*, so I feel it must be correct.
Per a post I made last night, I reported that the ball wasn't entirely comfortable with the grips at 30* matching the finger holes, but was more comfortable if I turned the grips a bit left.
I turned the finger grips back a bit to the left. I matched them up to the pointed end of my fingers and the comfort was great in that position.
I then measured what degree they were turned to and it was 20*, so my finger holes are 30* and finger grips are 20* ... Should I plug and redrill fingers to 20* even though when measuring my thumb to finger angle says 30*?
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Received Email from Joe on my question advising to reduce drlling angle to 23-25 degrees, so that should take care of that problem .... Thanks Joe.
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Sounds logical
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I am getting questions about the "extreme" use of lateral pitch in the Anatomical Drilling Technique. Here is the anatomical rationale for why we want to use a significant amount of lateral. At the base of the thumb, into the palm, is a collection of 4 muscles. This muscle mass, the thenar eminence, allows for all of thumb movements. For our purposes, it is vital to understand how lateral movement of the thumb changes tension in and the height of this muscle mass. To see and feel this, start with your palm facing up. Notice where the thumb is located and how relaxed the wrist is as well as low this muscle mass is on the hand. Now with your palm up, move the thumb toward the center of your hand. Notice the change in tension as well as height of the muscle mass relative to your hand. Due to this anatomical truth, significant lateral pitch will aid in getting the ball to sit on the ball on the hand better as well as reducing tension in the thumb and wrist.
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I totally understand that Joe,but for me any thing more than 5/16"or 6/16" left in my thumb just locked the thumb into my ball. For me 5/16" works the best. I stay at 0" forward or 1/8"if my hand is tired .I like the way the ball feels on my hand.I can keep the thumb tight with no grip pressure and get out of it clean
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Other than 3 or 4 tosses down the lane before league Tues, I haven't been able to try mine to judge it fairly yet. I didn't want to let the team down, so I didn't try it during league. It has been spring break for school kids here this week and the bowling lanes have been packed and I mean packed with kids all week, so there have been no open lanes to practice on. I don't know about evenings as I don't venture out at night.
There is a morning league this morning so the house will be open early. I have some errands to run and if finished in time, I will try to get in a couple games of practice with the ADT grip.
I will say one thing though and that is I LOVE the way it feels in my hand, so hope I will be able to bowl with it.
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Finally ... I finally got to try this new grip and I must say that it has my attention after trying it for 4 games today. My accuracy in the area of my target on the lane was a bit better. My ball was definitely stronger off the break point with a few more revs and a wee bit more speed than I normally have. I don't have a lot of revs to begin with, so this was a plus for me. I do work my balls at release and hit up on the ball more than I care to, but with this ADT grip there is no working the ball needed. Just stay behind it and throw it and the ball will do the rest. In fact if I try to release it like I do my T-Grip drilled balls, it doesn't work well, but stay behind it and it moves and carries really well.
So, to sum it up, I am going to have to adjust my mechanics and style a bit and I think this ADT grip will work well for me.
I do know that I will have to do a bit of fine tuning with the grip. but nothing major.
I would like to hear from others that are using or trying this grip as I know some of you have tried and/or using it now.
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Very interesting. I don't drill my stuff like most of you here do, so I doubt I'll be able to have my current driller do this ADT drill for me. Plus, I'm just a league bowler with maybe 4 to 8 tourney's a year. If I was a bit more into bowling, I'll prolly seek a driller who can do this for me.
But, it's interesting to see the reaction from others who tried it.....
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Proper fitting and a grip that is functional is not this difficult...I'm sorry but name it what you wish, it's understanding how to fit a person correctly and merely looking at a picture of a persons hand does NOT tells a ball driller/fitter all he needs to know abt a proper fit
The grip should be designed to create a functioning release and that requires proper wrist strength and positioning
A grip should be comfortable yes, but there is a huge difference between a static fit and a dynamic fit as well as understanding the difference in the two...a proper fit is one that releases due to gravity and momentum
Everything is great & wonderful in a perfect world and/ok on paper BUT seeing a persons hand is a small part of the equation...the persons build, age and strength have to be considered as well as their natural tendencies
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^^^^ Correct. Couldn't have explained it better.^^^^
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The ADT is based on the natural anatomy of each individual's hand. It wasn't developed by simply looking at the hand. As with all work that I do, it is grounded in scientific truths not random speculation. I spend time building systems based on sport science
My next Bowling This Month article outline the anatomical foundations and why it works.
Some foundations of the ADT grip which allow it to be effective in improving the swing and release while reducing injury.
The release line of the ADT grip aligns the fingers parallel to the forearm which is the mechanism for transferring energy from the body to bowler as kinetic, potential and elastic energy converged in the release to follow-through movement. Elite bowlers release through the center of the bowling ball.
The range of motion of the Carpometacarpal (CMC) joint of the thumb and the muscle mass of the thenar muscles play an important role in both reducing tension in the wrist and allowing the ball to sit flatter on the hand.
Research has shown that the pinky and ring finger, the ulna side of the forearm, contribute more to a human's grip strength than do the middle and index finger. This is an anatomical truth based on how human's grip. When the drill line is shifted toward the ring and pinky, a bowler can more easily swing and release the ball because there is less tension in the wrist.
Based on sport science foundations, the ADT is simultaneously a performance enhancement as well as an injury reduction grip.
The base fit also considers the natural flexibility of a person's fingers and thumb which greatly adds to the both the comfort of the grip as well as the ability to swing and throw the bowling with maximum outputs and less effort.
In the 21st century, with the amount of knowledge about sport science as we have as human beings, the grip should be more than functional. It should be a customized experience based on how a human being's anatomy works. There are defined joint range of motion range standards that are scientific truths. These truths are not based on simply looking at one's hand.
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If this fitting method is based on science and truths then shouldn't there be a more scientific method of measuring the lateral thumb pitch than "add 1/4 to 1/2" more lateral away pitch on the thumb"?
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Call or name it what you will, I've fit properly basing off the lines of the hand for over 25 yrs (as well as written a book on it) and I've NEVER generalized any angles used for gripping...or the release
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First of all, I agree that generally, the more we learn and experiment, the better we will become in discovering what works and what doesn't for each individual bowler.
This goes also for the whole science of biomechanics and how it relates to the physical game of bowling. Along the way, it is important to keep our minds open to any new concepts and see where they will take us. Credit goes to Joe for his
efforts to learn how we can take our games to the next level. I read his columns
with great interest and have applied many of his concepts to my game, with great results.
However, it's important to keep in mind that his suggestions are almost
entirely geared to the "elite bowler"---to those who aspire to master the contemporary game. I am not, nor will I ever become an elite contemporary bowler
at this stage of my life. I am just north of 60 years of age and I have been a student
of this game for longer than I can remember and I still compete at a fairly high level (including PBA 50 regionals).
The mechanics of my game are not compatible with
the requirements of today's elite bowler. It is not a matter of not trying (I have).
It is simply due to the fact that the shoulder, back,hand, and arm positions of
today's elite bowler place my body in a much weaker position from the standpoint
of leverage and accuracy. From a physics standpoint ( I am a physics major, 42 years removed) they are incompatible in maximizing leverage and transferring "power" at the release point in my game.nFor most strokers, we must use less lateral and forward spine tilts, for better leverage and accuracy. This also requires different
hand measurements that allow a bowler like myself to obtain optimum wrist strength
and which allow me to take maximum advantage of a gravity-fed swing and which will allow me to transfer power at the foul line much more efficiently.
I would further argue that the excessive spine tilts and 3rd quadrant hand releases associated with today's game
do precisely the opposite of what they purport to do, which is to maximize physical
leverage. In fact, they do just the opposite. The combination of excessive lateral tilt coupled with the fingers being under and behind the ball, will almost always cause to the wrist to collapse by itself due to the fact that the ball is now at its "heaviest"
position at release and also due to hand acceleration (the hand is now going faster than the velocity caused by gravitational momentum). It is virtually impossible to for the wrist NOT to collapse in this biomechanical position . Strokers require shoulder leverage.
Leverage that is maximized by using the larger muscle groups of the back to keep the
bowling shoulder in a fixed and for the most part (erect position). Excessive lateral tilt
transfers the load to the much smaller lower (back) muscles--- a much weaker biomechanical position. This will often cause the shoulders to more easily pivot in the vertical plane and results in an EXCESSIVE drop of the shoulder at release. The end result is often a pulled shot and a "topped" release, since strokers are on the side of the ball. This is opposite of the power player (in today's game, "power" is somewhat of a misnomer, since the power in today's game comes from the body being in a weakened position, in terms of leverage as it is often defined).
I also agree that what feels comfortable statically, may not necessarily translate into
what works dynamically. At the risk of oversimplification, I will use the analogy of
a baseball hitter. Statically, it is much more comfortable for the hitter to hold his bat
directly in front of his body in his stance, with his gripping hands held belt high. This
is the position where his body and muscle symmetry feel most natural. However,
this is not where most elite hitters hold their bat. They have to raise their arms higher, and literally cock their front shoulder. Elite batters will often use different
grip pressures, bat sizes and barrel diameters depending on how they hold their bat
(statically) so that they can maximize the transfer of energy through the swing (dynamically). They know that what might feel comfortable statically does not translate into performing optimally once the swing gets going. The biomechanics of a batter's swing are necessarily different from a bowler's (swing) but many of the
principles still apply. What works for one bowler will not always work for another, due to an individual's style, physical makeup, etc. (although I would argue that a bowler's style generally dictates what biomechanics apply).
So what does all of this mean? Once again, we should never shut the door on new and innovative ideas, including the ADT method of drilling balls. In the end, I too desire a modicum of comfort, but the proof of any new idea rests with the dynamic results achieved at the pins, and this will differ depending on the bowler's style and own physiology.
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That was very well said bergman.That's some of the best reading I've done, that has to do with bowling !
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Plus 10,000!
Good read..
First of all, I agree that generally, the more we learn and experiment, the better we will become in discovering what works and what doesn't for each individual bowler.
This goes also for the whole science of biomechanics and how it relates to the physical game of bowling. Along the way, it is important to keep our minds open to any new concepts and see where they will take us. Credit goes to Joe for his
efforts to learn how we can take our games to the next level. I read his columns
with great interest and have applied many of his concepts to my game, with great results.
However, it's important to keep in mind that his suggestions are almost
entirely geared to the "elite bowler"---to those who aspire to master the contemporary game. I am not, nor will I ever become an elite contemporary bowler
at this stage of my life. I am just north of 60 years of age and I have been a student
of this game for longer than I can remember and I still compete at a fairly high level (including PBA 50 regionals).
The mechanics of my game are not compatible with
the requirements of today's elite bowler. It is not a matter of not trying (I have).
It is simply due to the fact that the shoulder, back,hand, and arm positions of
today's elite bowler place my body in a much weaker position from the standpoint
of leverage and accuracy. From a physics standpoint ( I am a physics major, 42 years removed) they are incompatible in maximizing leverage and transferring "power" at the release point in my game.nFor most strokers, we must use less lateral and forward spine tilts, for better leverage and accuracy. This also requires different
hand measurements that allow a bowler like myself to obtain optimum wrist strength
and which allow me to take maximum advantage of a gravity-fed swing and which will allow me to transfer power at the foul line much more efficiently.
I would further argue that the excessive spine tilts and 3rd quadrant hand releases associated with today's game
do precisely the opposite of what they purport to do, which is to maximize physical
leverage. In fact, they do just the opposite. The combination of excessive lateral tilt coupled with the fingers being under and behind the ball, will almost always cause to the wrist to collapse by itself due to the fact that the ball is now at its "heaviest"
position at release and also due to hand acceleration (the hand is now going faster than the velocity caused by gravitational momentum). It is virtually impossible to for the wrist NOT to collapse in this biomechanical position . Strokers require shoulder leverage.
Leverage that is maximized by using the larger muscle groups of the back to keep the
bowling shoulder in a fixed and for the most part (erect position). Excessive lateral tilt
transfers the load to the much smaller lower (back) muscles--- a much weaker biomechanical position. This will often cause the shoulders to more easily pivot in the vertical plane and results in an EXCESSIVE drop of the shoulder at release. The end result is often a pulled shot and a "topped" release, since strokers are on the side of the ball. This is opposite of the power player (in today's game, "power" is somewhat of a misnomer, since the power in today's game comes from the body being in a weakened position, in terms of leverage as it is often defined).
I also agree that what feels comfortable statically, may not necessarily translate into
what works dynamically. At the risk of oversimplification, I will use the analogy of
a baseball hitter. Statically, it is much more comfortable for the hitter to hold his bat
directly in front of his body in his stance, with his gripping hands held belt high. This
is the position where his body and muscle symmetry feel most natural. However,
this is not where most elite hitters hold their bat. They have to raise their arms higher, and literally cock their front shoulder. Elite batters will often use different
grip pressures, bat sizes and barrel diameters depending on how they hold their bat
(statically) so that they can maximize the transfer of energy through the swing (dynamically). They know that what might feel comfortable statically does not translate into performing optimally once the swing gets going. The biomechanics of a batter's swing are necessarily different from a bowler's (swing) but many of the
principles still apply. What works for one bowler will not always work for another, due to an individual's style, physical makeup, etc. (although I would argue that a bowler's style generally dictates what biomechanics apply).
So what does all of this mean? Once again, we should never shut the door on new and innovative ideas, including the ADT method of drilling balls. In the end, I too desire a modicum of comfort, but the proof of any new idea rests with the dynamic results achieved at the pins, and this will differ depending on the bowler's style and own physiology.
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xray,
You're probably closer than anyone else here to have some contacts. Find someone studying sports biomechanics and convince them to do their thesis on bowling. Then we could have some scientific studies instead of everyone's theories.
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I'll try to find out what I can from the sports dept. and ortho specialist for the hands. I left these dept. four years ago and the guys in the bio mech dept may have left too. But I'll make some calls...
xray,
You're probably closer than anyone else here to have some contacts. Find someone studying sports biomechanics and convince them to do their thesis on bowling. Then we could have some scientific studies instead of everyone's theories.
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I am going to practice a couple games tomorrow to get better used to my ADT Drilled ball and hopefully I might be able to try it a bit Tues afternoon in league.
Will take it to my driller Tues evening after 6:00 and have the MF plugged and add 1/8 left lateral pitch to it (increase from 1/4 to 3/8 left) and add 1/16 left pitch to thumb (increase from 9/16 to 5/8). I will then try the ball and go from there. I may and may not have to make one more adjustment after that, but want to do this first and go from there. I feel after that, the fit could very well be perfect as I think I am that close now, but will just have to wait and see.
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To those that have tried it, are you changing any of your pitches other then the thumb away?
If so, what was the reasons why?
As for the Thumb away 1/4-1/2 on top f your normal specs, are you starting at 1/2" and working back as needed?
Thanks
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To those that have tried it, are you changing any of your pitches other then the thumb away?
If so, what was the reasons why?
As for the Thumb away 1/4-1/2 on top f your normal specs, are you starting at 1/2" and working back as needed?
Thanks
I followed the instructions exact and drilled my ball. I tried it for 4 games and liked the initial results of the grip but felt I needed to make a couple adjustments to make it even better.
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Is anyone else using or working with this ADT grip besides me?
I absolutely LOVE it. It may not be for everyone, but it definitely is for me.
I am beginning to bowl higher scores with it, missing less spares, getting way better pin carry, have more revs, better ball movement, hand doesn't tire as easy and etc.
The ball now fits my hand like a glove. Prior to now, I haven't liked my grip for the last 2-3 years and have spent umpteen $$$$ making changes trying to find something that I liked and would work.
I followed the instructions perfectly and the ball worked great beginning with the very first throw. I am now in the process of "fine tuning" my grip with a couple of minor adjustments of which I feel will make it better yet.
Anyhow, just wondering about others here. I can understand high average and elite bowlers sticking to what they have if no problems with their grip, but for people like myself that aren't in that class, to me it is worth a try if a person is not happy with their current grip and/or the results they are currently getting with their ball.
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Well regardless of all this back and forth. I used to drill so I can understand both sides of each discussion but what I can say is when I used this technique for my son and he had a huge smile on his face after his first few shots. This anatomical drill gave him what he has been looking for the last couple years. So Joe I thank you for the work you have done here because I can tell you my son enjoys the game even more than he did before. Thanks again.
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I can also add that my driller has already used this technique for a few of his customers and they all have had good results. So there has to be something to it.
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I have sent Joe my paypal payment and have received the info. I will be looking into updating my drilling using this information. I am wondering if this layout will change my PAP, tilt, rotation, etc? Will I need to modify my dual angle layouts accordingly?
Thanks!
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In the beginning it changed mine radically. My pap was 4 3/4" × 0" after I went with the first layout which was 7/16" left by 0" reverse it made the ball roll over my thumb. Almost rolled over the entire thumb slug. My pap went to 6 x 5/16" up.I have since went to 1/4 - 5/16" left pitch (right hand bowler) and still at no reverse and I'm able to keep the ball from rolling over my thumb. Just remember it'll take a lot of trial and error to get the grip correct for you. I have plugged and redrilled that ball 6 times to get to what I like
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In the beginning it changed mine radically. My pap was 4 3/4" × 0" after I went with the first layout which was 7/16" left by 0" reverse it made the ball roll over my thumb. Almost rolled over the entire thumb slug. My pap went to 6 x 5/16" up.I have since went to 1/4 - 5/16" left pitch (right hand bowler) and still at no reverse and I'm able to keep the ball from rolling over my thumb. Just remember it'll take a lot of trial and error to get the grip correct for you. I have plugged and redrilled that ball 6 times to get to what I like
I only had to do 2 drillings and have what I feel is a perfect fit. I followed the drilling instructions EXACTLY as they instruct and the ball was great the first time. Even though my thumb-finger angle came out to 30*, my fingers weren't exactly on the flat side of grips. I Emailed Joe and he said to reduce the angle to 23-25 degrees, so I re-plugged the fingers plus increased MF lateral pitch from 1/4 to 3/8 and all came out perfect. I've used the ball 4 times since and don't anticipate any more adjustments at this time.
As for my ball track, PAP, tilt, etc. I haven't paid any attention to those things at the moment as I wanted to get the fit perfect first. Will look at those things next.
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Tried it, but did some conversion in order to utilize simple, round, grip holes that can later be applied to to oval inserts and oval thumb in a urethane slug. No bevel on the fingers is just fine, at the moment, but the fresh urethane cover of the ball utilized was too grabby even after bevel until I worked some oil into the coverstock in the thumb hole.
It's a different fit, might be a good fit... but I am waiting until the off season to take the next step to inserts and slugs. Will go with the standard, T-grip, way of referencing the pitches I found using this technique in the future though... Makes it easier on my driller
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Has anyone else experimented with this technique? What are your thoughts?
I am wanting to drill this for a friend and myself. As for the thumbhole, has everyone used the normal thumb hole size or does this layout require a more tight/loose thumbhole?
Thanks for your input and thoughts.
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My team mate who owns a pro shop used it for a while but switched back to his former grip. I don't think he hated it, but didn't see any benefit or improvement with it.
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My team mate who owns a pro shop used it for a while but switched back to his former grip. I don't think he hated it, but didn't see any benefit or improvement with it.
Strider, same here .... I tried it an liked it at first and then things went down hill later and I ended up lowering my average, so I am thinking about returning to my old grip after our last league games tomorrow. I'm going to have to find a different pro shop though as the one I have been using is closing this week and is not taking on any more pluging and re-drills this week.
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I tried it and it was decent. The grip felt good on your hand but coming off your hand it felt about the same as my usual grip, well the ADT grip instead of helping me come more up the back of the ball it felt like it made me go off the side more. The grip was OK overall though just not enough benefits to convince me to plug all my balls.
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I had the exact same reaction as Ken. I only tried it on that one ball. Since then I went back to my standard thumb, but I drill my fingers according to the ADT. So I guess I'm using a semi-ADT, lol!
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I had the exact same reaction as Ken. I only tried it on that one ball. Since then I went back to my standard thumb, but I drill my fingers according to the ADT. So I guess I'm using a semi-ADT, lol!
Gatekeeper, with my planning to return to my old grip, that is what I was thinking about trying also. I am trying to decide whether to drill the thumb as is normally done by centering it on the grip line or drilling the thumb center line towards the RF like it is done in the ADT drilling.
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I think the biggest thing is understanding what one is reading and applying the principles. IMHO I think there are a lot out there that are good, but could be great if they understood angles and applied the principles they read. If a person has a certain pitch, they have a certain pitch if that is what the hand and release are telling you. No fitting teqnique is going to change it. I have 1/4 reverse and 1/4 right lateral on my thumb and have been told I should have 0 lateral. I have tried it, it does not work. The way my hand lays I the ball and looking at my hand in a relaxed position tells me I need some right lateral. I was trained through IBPSIA and that is the system I have used for 15 years. I have read (r)Evolve and have taken it and combined it with my IBPSIA training and feel that it has givin me the best mesuring technique I could have. I have two guys that work for me and are very good drillers, but they have a hard time measuring and understanding what the hand is telling them. All of these measuring techniques are "guides".
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I think the biggest thing is understanding what one is reading and applying the principles. IMHO I think there are a lot out there that are good, but could be great if they understood angles and applied the principles they read. If a person has a certain pitch, they have a certain pitch if that is what the hand and release are telling you. No fitting teqnique is going to change it. I have 1/4 reverse and 1/4 right lateral on my thumb and have been told I should have 0 lateral. I have tried it, it does not work. The way my hand lays I the ball and looking at my hand in a relaxed position tells me I need some right lateral. I was trained through IBPSIA and that is the system I have used for 15 years. I have read (r)Evolve and have taken it and combined it with my IBPSIA training and feel that it has givin me the best mesuring technique I could have. I have two guys that work for me and are very good drillers, but they have a hard time measuring and understanding what the hand is telling them. All of these measuring techniques are "guides".
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It is understanding the difference between static and dynamic...
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What people seem to miss when "offsetting" the thumb is when you redraw your lines with the center gripline splitting the fingers and splitting the thumb you are only dropping a finger more so then normal.
Many (rh) Bowlers have the ring finger slightly further then the middle finger. Usually about 1/8". Moving the thumb hole further right or left of the Center line shortens the distance of the finger you are moving towards. It's not really offset
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It's a round object...any angle can be duplicated off any line one draws...
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It's a round object...any angle can be duplicated off any line one draws...
+1
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Had a driller that knows the method drill a few balls for me...I see little difference overall but my rotation might have lowered a tad bit.
My main concern is when I try to roll the ball end over end my thumb starts to hurt....why is this? No real issues on my normal release.
Thoughts?
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Sounds like you are spiking the ball. :o
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I took the plunge, figured it was only $12.95. If it worked it worked and if it didn't it, well was only $12.95. Unlike the tri-grip i was happy to take the risk.
Anyway, even though I'm really happy with my current fit i found that the ball fitted a lot more comfortably in the hand and made my release feel a lot more effortless. Immediately i noticed that my speed and rev rate increased and even my track was slightly higher then before.
Straight off the bat I hit games of 225, 238 and 247, usually i average 210 in our house but shot execution seems to have improved. From what i can see, I'm impressed with his method.
I'm implementing it on a few more bowlers as I'm curious to see how it effects them.
If you're skeptical I'd say just go for it, you've got nothing to lose really.
How did it go on the other folks you tried?
Is it worth having a go at?
Cheers,
Pete
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Sounded interesting, so I bought it. Tried the drill on my wife's ball and on mine. Made no difference on my shot and only a minimal difference on my wife's. I don't use it any more.
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I bought it, drilled one ball, ring finger span felt WAY too long. I made an adjustment to shorten the ring, then it just never felt right. I practiced with it a few times, then decided to punt and sold it on eBay.
The method made sense to me in a static position. If I could keep that feel through the swing, I think that I would like it. I didn't seem to get it on my initial trial. With that being said, it's a little different way to think about pitches/angles, but at the end if the day, this can just as easily be described using the standard T layout...
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if you have over 1/2 rev/forward finger pitches, you will notice the different, i have adjusted my lateral pitch long time not success until get the ADT from Joe, the latest modification of the thumb/finger angle is ring finger need to minus 5 degree with Middle finger because of the bridge between finger is somehow larger when using the finger grips, now finger is perfect, but thumb still need time to adjust on the 'away pitch'
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Does the Interchangeable Thumb Insert work with ADT ?
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Interchangeable Thumb is good , as long as the new pitch don't have much changes, just redrill another slug insert and don't need full plugged
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ttt for reference.
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It's a round object...any angle can be duplicated off any line one draws...
+1, every person I know who has tried it wound up coming back to me fix their grips back to their normal grips. Most said it was the worst investment they've made.
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The technique is derived from the anatomical nature of how the hand naturally grips/grasps an object. Accordingly, the process allows a significantly better fit which reduces grip pressure, reduces tension in the wrist, increases swing fluidity and improves the release.
Testing has seen the removal of pain for a bowler who had chronic pain while bowling each and every time he bowled for 2 years. With the fit change, the performance for this bowler also improved. He averaged over 240 in his national selection for games 3 - 7 in dual pattern Seoul and Mexico City. He won 2 of 6 blocks in the trials and earned a spot on his national team for the first time. Below is another bowler with a before and after showing how the hand sits on the ball better with the Anatomical Drilling Technique. Reduced tension in the wrist, a freer swing and an improved release.
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The technique is derived from the anatomical nature of how the hand naturally grips/grasps an object. Accordingly, the process allows a significantly better fit which reduces grip pressure, reduces tension in the wrist, increases swing fluidity and improves the release.
Testing has seen the removal of pain for a bowler who had chronic pain while bowling each and every time he bowled for 2 years. With the fit change, the performance for this bowler also improved. He averaged over 240 in his national selection for games 3 - 7 in dual pattern Seoul and Mexico City. He won 2 of 6 blocks in the trials and earned a spot on his national team for the first time. Below is another bowler with a before and after showing how the hand sits on the ball better with the Anatomical Drilling Technique. Reduced tension in the wrist, a freer swing and an improved release.
And you felt it was so important enough to revive a thread that hasn't had a post in over two years.