Post by: JessN16 on January 27, 2012, 07:31:19 PM
I'll try to make this as short as possible -- over the past 6 months, I've developed multiple pain issues while bowling. Wrist, hand, forearm and elbow.
For a long time, I subconsciously knuckled the ball. When I was younger, I got away with it. I'm no longer getting away with it.
The main problem is that I cannot get a good feel in the ball. My thumb alternatively sticks and slips inside the thumbhole. Using smaller-size holes only makes the sticking worse, while using larger holes plus tape only makes the slipping worse.
Currently, cut-to-cut, my middle finger span is 4 1/8 and my ring span is 4 1/4. My thumbhole is pitched 1/8 reverse and 1/8 away, and these numbers haven't changed in 20 years. Although I drill my own stuff, I recently enlisted the help of a veteran driller to measure me and give me his opinion on how he'd fit me, and he says my current pitches appear, on the surface, to be correct.
But the pain I'm feeling says otherwise. Most of it is concentrated on the palm side of my wrist, on the top side of my wrist directly behind my pinky finger, and in the forearm muscle just below the elbow joint. When I squeeze something, it all hurts worse.
I've tried different kinds of tapes, I've put Magic Carpet in thumb holes, I've tried different ovaling and beveling. I've tried about a half-dozen wrist braces, and bowling with no brace. No relief. Now it's getting worse instead of better.
Recently, the problem grew into a quality-of-life problem. I had to sleep in an elbow-immobilizing brace every night because, for about two months, I had a major flare-up of tennis elbow (I don't play tennis) aggravated by bowling.
The only thing I can think of left to try is different pitching in the thumb hole. I want to have a very relaxed grip. The predominant feeling I get when I bowl now is that I'm having to grip the ball for all it's worth. But if I add tape to the thumbhole, it starts hanging up almost instantly.
What I need to know is by how much to shorten the span if I were to go from, say, 1/8 reverse to 1/4 or 3/8 forward. I plan to take the lateral back to 0. I've bowled with under lateral before, and it hurt like hell, so I think that's probably out. I'm also for taking other suggestions as to what might be the problem, but I'll warn you ahead of time, I've probably already tried everything else you can think of already.
Well, I didn't keep it short after all. Sorry.
Jess
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 28, 2012, 06:32:43 AM
Would probably be best to try having it fitted at the proshop with the change in pitches to see how much if any you need to change your span. I'd even consider 0,0 to start on your pitches. It sounds like your really putting a death grip on the bowling ball. Mine is 1/2" reverse and 1/4" away, has been for a long time with no issues. I keep my hand relaxed and get my thumb out of the ball quickly.
Any time I did start squeezing the ball too much I felt pain in the top of my hand. Kind of a shooting pain as I'm throwing the ball. This was usually because of me trying to muscle the ball and hook it at the same time. ie really grab at the ball. It was when I learned the more I relaxed my hand the more I was able to hook the ball this went away.
I would get remeasured again, or since you drill your own stuff take an older bowling ball you don't use and try drilling a few different pitches and spans in it and see how they feel, If you have a backyard you can go throw a few just to have an idea of if your getting closer or further from your desired results.
"1 of 1."
Post by: glssmn2001 on January 28, 2012, 06:41:38 AM
Post by: Strider on January 28, 2012, 07:16:41 AM
If you think you're squeezing too much usually either your span is too long or you have too much reverse pitch in your thumb. After I went forward, when I picked up an old ball, I was amazed how much grip pressure it took to just pick up the ball. I could only imaging how it would have felt to actually throw it again.
Did you happen to throw any on Ron's stuff when you were up? You span is pretty close, but have no idea on hole sizes. That's how I got started. Ron had me throw one of his and emphasized on not squeezing and using little grip pressure. I threw the ball well. That's when he let me know the ball had either 3/8" or 1/2" forward (can't remember).
If you've tried everything else, you have nothing to lose by trying forward thumb pitch. If you have a relaxed span, you shouldn't even have to change anything else. I know my wrist feels so much better than it did in the past.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 28, 2012, 08:15:08 AM
You haven't mentioned how stretched or relaxed your span is. You haven't mentioned how you test on a coke bottle test or pencil picking up test(for lateral pitch).
Often elbow problwms from bowling are a result of throwing the wrong lateral for your anatomy.
Recently I threw a lateral out ball for two or three balls(I test to the ring finger in my coke bottle test dramatic lateral under palm result). My elbow hurt for a day or two!
Memory in watching you makes me think you use a fairly short relaxed span and stay very behind the ball, but it has been quite awhile.
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Stan on January 28, 2012, 09:14:51 AM
Another item to consider is the makeup of your skin. Do you have dry skin or is your skin moist ? Depending on the climate you are in this will have a dramatic effect on your thumb release.
I have and continue to have thumb issues. I have very dry skin and need the thumb fairly tight during the winter months just to hold on. During the warmer months, I am fine. I started using Vise IT's and they helped out a lot.
Another comment is with you span size, I feel 1/8 reverse is too much. My span is R - 4 3/16 and L = 4 1/8 and I use 1/8 forward. I have gone as far as 1/4 forward but I do tend to squeeze a bit and that was too much.
I suggest going to zero reverse first and see how that feels.
Thought about your elbow problem. Are you sure your elbow is not out during your release ? If it is, this will put a lot of strain on your elbow and cause problems. Your best bet is to take a video of yourself. You can either post it here, bowling chat, or just look at it yourself to see if you can pick up and items that might be causing your problems. Either way, this would be a good starting point.
Post by: JessN16 on January 28, 2012, 08:15:30 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I will try to answer the questions asked by everyone in this post:
1) Elbow position at release: I have videoed myself over the past couple of months and I don't see any issues there. I do tend to be very parallel to the target line with everything, as much as possible, and I don't swing the ball much unless I absolutely have to. My arm swing, on video, does not seem to have changed from videos taken 3-4 years ago. One thing I left out of the original post was that my elbow injury (tennis elbow) was originally worsened by another injury I suffered moving a large bed out of our bedroom. I'm not even sure bowling has that much to do with it, really.
2) Coke bottle test/professional refitting: In the original post, I mentioned consulting a veteran driller this week on what he thought my pitches should be. We did both the Coke bottle and the pick-up-a-pencil tests. With the bottle, I'm 1/8 away, my current pitch. This was the method used by my former driller to do a refit on me about 6 years ago. With the pencil, I come out at 0. I do know from throwing some of Jeff Carter's old stuff that I can't bowl with under pitch, as it was severely irritating the nerve at the base of my thumb.
3) Finger flexibility/skin quality: I have a very flexible hand and supple joints with no arthritic intrusion. I typically have average skin moisture. Occasionally I will get moisture on the back of my hand, but the palms of my hands never sweat, ever.
4) Span stretch: My span is completely textbook or maybe a bit relaxed, by only 1/8 inch if that.
I think the issue is that I should always have had forward pitch, but I was able to make reverse work by squeezing, except the days of making that work are gone and my body is telling me, "get it right."
I'm going to plug a couple of balls this weekend and try something between 1/8 forward and 3/8 forward and see what works best.
Jess
Post by: TLefe091985 on January 28, 2012, 08:32:59 PM
PAP- 4in right, 2in up of center of grip.
Rev Rate-400ish
Ball Speed 18.0-19.0 mph
I score well with a slight chicken wing 
Arsenal:
Storm VG Nano
DV8 Hell Raiser
DV8 Reckless
DV8 Misfit- Orange and Blue, Light scuff with scotch bright to smooth out reaction
Storm Natural
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 28, 2012, 10:03:13 PM
This might be the un-popular answer but I find that some people, including myself who have had issues with fit or grip are using too heavy of a bowling ball.
I searching for a long time for the perfect fit and never really found it. Since I am getting older faster than I want to I went down to a 14lb bowling ball and it's been nothing but perfect ever since. All the extra force, and the feelings that I once had with 15s are now gone.
You might say that a lighter ball might make your scores lower, and that is a very individual type thing. I've gone back up into the 225-230 avg. range that I once was a few years ago. Some houses it's alittle tougher and ball/ball dynamics/entry angle needs to be right (becomes more of a thinking game, and not all that bad really)
We might be very strong individuals but at that release point the bowling ball is 5x its normal weight.
If you struggle with fit, find a very good pro shop and then if you still feel there problems give the ball weight a try.
I like my thumb to get out quick with a bowling ball. I've tried all the hair brained forward pitch tricks and its been nothing but either more pain, or terrible releases. Some people just need to get out of the ball at the proper position in their release point and the on paper grip "stats" do not allow that. Remember the pitch in the thumb controls how quickly the ball comes off the thumb and when it comes off the thumb. When you make these changes your also going to change those two parts of the release. Think about the feel your trying to achieve at the bottom and then have your pro shop do what they need to do to get you to feel that in your equipment. If its a more than the normal reverse, than so be it...if its more forward than so be it. Don't cookie cutter yourself into a grip...that does not work!!
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 1/28/2012 at 11:09 PM
Post by: JessN16 on January 28, 2012, 10:32:33 PM
Where most of my pain is coming is when the ball loads itself onto the hand in the backswing. From that point on back, then back through, I hurt and struggle to hold onto the ball.
If I take a ball, even a 16-pounder (I throw mostly 15s, although I do have some 16-pound equipment), and tape up the thumb hole to intentionally lock my thumb in it so the ball has no chance of coming off, I don't hurt nearly as much, or even hurt at all. This tells me there's some kind of active squeezing/gripping going on to keep the ball on my hand. Now I've got to figure out why I have an allegedly ideal span, pitches that match what my Coke bottle test says I should have, yet still have a ton of pain after years of mostly pain-free bowling.
Jess
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 29, 2012, 06:27:15 AM
I think your answer might be to tape up the holes as tight as you can get them. Maybe use alittle bit of forward pitch and make the holes tight.
If you can clear the thumb doing this than all should be well for you.
Some guys ram their thumb into the hole and they get out of it so clean. If that is what you need to do, than give it a try.
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 29, 2012, 09:18:51 AM
I think it would be really interesting to know, when you tape up a ball are you taping up the front and the back? And eliminating pain?
If you are taping up the front you are in effect increasing bevel.. The front lip surface now effectively has a reduced angle. For some reason I would guess you have a small amount of bevel. When you discussed Jeff Carter at 0 lateral pitch causing damage to the nerve under your thumb I think of actually the combination of forward/reverse pitch and the amount of bevel under the front surface. I assume your pain was not on the side as that would be unusual in describing a nerve or pinging feeling.
Let me state I have nothing against lateral out pitch as a year or so ago I recommended it to a much better bowling friend and he is up 10 to 12 pins across 3 leagues as it fit his thumb perfectly.
When a person goes lateral more under from wher he is say lateral out 1/8 to 0 then he should also add a little more reverse say 1/16 or more as lateral under increases hod the thumb more in the ball.
As a guy who has many old balls, his own drill press, and all the ability to test it would not hurt you to try 0 lateral and increase your current reverse 1/16 or even an 1/8. Naturally as always implement the Mo Pinel bevel test. There is no doubt using Mo's bevel technique that by applying this technique you can get out of nearly any setup from 1/4 forward and 1/4 lateral out to 5/16 lateral under and 5/16 reverse. Which one will give you the ideal roll I don't know but I can assure you by using that technique that you could have made your Jeff Carter () pitch lateral balls come off like butter with no pain.
Hope to hear about some pain reducing progress.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS most guys who are using lateral out that should be using something else in lateral pitch will have a clear sign in that they can mostly only play fairly straight thru the heads. My friend above who tested 1/4 lateral out in the coke bottle test and now uses 3/16 lateral out can loop the lane or play straight now that he is at his anatomically correct pitch.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: JustRico on January 29, 2012, 08:17:15 PM
the issue here is the damage that has been done. As long as you continue to bowl, you are going to hurt as you are going to be continually pulling on it. Once you damage certain tendons which is what you have done, it is basically going to continue as long as you bowl. The tendons you have damaged pertain to your ring finger side.
A possible option is going lighter in weight. Unfortunately accept that you have damaged it.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: JessN16 on January 29, 2012, 11:55:40 PM
A quick update...
I plugged up some balls tonight to give me some options tomorrow night at league. The best feeling of the bunch was drilled with 3/8 forward, which represents a total move of 1/2 inch for me (1/8 reverse to 3/8 forward).
I also decreased the size of my pilot hole to 57/64 from 15/16 and then broke out the files and blades and spent the better part of the evening shaping the holes.
I have no idea how this will translate to the lanes, but as I swapped these new balls out for the old ones in my bag, I could tell a difference in comfort while holding the new equipment. Even picking up the old balls out of the bag required me to squeeze a good bit. The new stuff just hangs on my hand. I'll report back tomorrow night with the results.
Jess
(p.s.: For the ball junkies, the new stuff is an AMF Clutch Pearl, 900 Global Break Pearl, AMF Nkryption Code and a Lane #1 Gold Nugget. Since I know some people just have to know those kind of things. :) )
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 30, 2012, 06:30:01 AM
Please tell us you are not throwing a 1/2 inch move forward right off the bat in league.
Please put thumb in 1/2 way. Throw slowly, have EMT's on standby! The area past the foul line for humans is a dangerous place.
Good luck, be safe!
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Steven on January 30, 2012, 09:01:56 AM
+100 to JustRico.
I had a similar bowling related hand/arm injury a few years back. I had inflamed tendons/ligaments in the back of my hand, and a serious case of Medial Epicondylitis (Golfer's elbow). It was combination of overuse, some bad mechanics that had crept in, and not enough attention to stretching ahead of time.
Like you, my immediate focus was on experimenting with different spans and pitches to make the pain go away. Big mistake. As Rico said, the damage is done, and repairing your body should be your only focus right now.
What works really well is one of the soft tissue therapies. Look into ASTYM, GRASTON, or ART. Find a competent Physical Therapist certified in one of these techniques and start the repair process. Plan on no bowling for 3-6 months, depending on the severity of your injury. If you screw around with this kind of inflammation and tear damage (i.e. tennis/golfers elbow), you can have a cronic condition for the rest of your life.
Good luck with whatever rehabilitation method you choose.
Edited by Steven on 1/30/2012 at 10:53 AM
Post by: Strider on January 30, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
Every one's different of course, but I went from 5/16" reverse to 3/8" forward and never had an issue from shot one. If that's the pitch you need and you don't squeeze it, you won't have any problems. After a few games I was dropping it or having to squeeze it a bit just to hold on to it, so I kept moving forward.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive
Post by: bullred on January 30, 2012, 11:27:05 PM
JessN16, go back a couple of years and pickup the posts where we discussed "fishhooking the fingers" and "setting the thumb" How you try to hold the ball can lead to erratic release plus your approach and swing can hurt you as well. Ball weight can hurt also. Many reasons can contribute to an erratic release
Post by: JessN16 on January 31, 2012, 01:18:27 AM
Update from the first night...
The bad news: I didn't bowl particularly well, score-wise.
The good news: I didn't hurt.
The first thing I noticed was how much lighter the ball felt. I was using 15-pound equipment and the balls felt about 13 pounds. I was able to throw three games with no fatigue or pain, during or after. There didn't appear to be any damage to my rev count (perhaps an increase, actually). I had briefly tried forward pitch a few years ago and, at the time, could not throw the ball straight when I needed to. That wasn't a problem tonight, as I was able to throw straight at spares.
I did hang up in the ball several times, and I have to be really careful not to even begin to squeeze it. If I do, I get instant feedback and it's pretty impressive: Three left-gutter channel shots tonight. I haven't thrown one in the high-side ditch in probably 5 years.
However, by the end of the night I realized that coming out of the ball quickly was not an issue provided I don't squeeze it. I now have to figure out the proper taping methods and types, or whether to tape at all.
I was bowling adjacent to a pair with the guy who runs the pro shop for that house, and he made a similar change to what I made about a year ago. He said he bowled like junk for about 2 weeks until he got his confidence up, and then he was better than ever. He also said he thought I was throwing the ball a lot better tonight. I'm really hoping he's right, because he shot 802 and 789 today and I'd sure like to bowl as well after two weeks. :)
I'll keep everyone updated.
Jess
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 07, 2012, 07:43:56 AM
Anatomy and lateral pitch.
Of course we are much different I coke bottle test to my middle finger ring finger. I think you test out near your index/middle(correction) finger.
I get bowling balls lately from righties that are almost lefty drills(lucky for me). But the pitches are often righty and the thumbs are right pitch1/8 right(or lateral out for me) which are often 3/8 of an inch from my average or best anatomy pitch. Over the past two weeks I have thrown two balls about a total of 20 frames with this imporper anatomy pitch for MY hand.
MY elbow hurts this morning.
Again....I am not anti lateral out pitch, I have a friend who should almost never use 0 and should always be 1/8 to 1/4 lateral out. He bowls fantastic now that he has switched from 0 to lateral out.
It is just there is a range of pitches for each anatomy that will not cause pain. Mine is probably 1/4 under palm to 0. Yours may be 1/8 under to 1/8 out.
One thing is sure and that is that those that should be under when they go out lateral will often need to go more forward to get more holding power. Also they need often more front surface bevel if they go past an average forward for THEIR hand. If they go to lateral under they will often the need more reverse from their lateral out setup and often will need to test for more front bevel to get out of the the ball.
Hope you find your pain free spot, your proper roll pitch, and your no more left gutter pitches.
I don't think it is where you were before or where you are now in this test listed above but time will tell.
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 2/13/2012 at 8:11 AM
Post by: JessN16 on February 07, 2012, 10:14:18 PM
Just wanted to put somewhat of a capper on this...
Over the last week, things were definitely trial and error. Mostly trials and errors, actually.
The worst of the bunch was the 422 series last Thursday on our sport league shot. Because I could never depend on the ball coming off my hand, I bowled scared. I almost did an unintentional Machuga Flop at one point when the ball really did stick on my hand.
A couple of drillers I consulted were at odds. One wanted me to back off to 1/8 forward. The other told me to keep getting used to what I'd put in the ball. I ended up sort of splitting the difference.
Over the weekend, I decided to re-pilot the balls. I left the 3/8 forward alone but drilled out the thumbs to 15/16, my old size, rather than 57/64. I could get out of 57/64 with reverse pitch, but not forward.
I also made a couple of other changes. I stopped taping my fingers and went back to using the golf glove, as that's what my inserts are sized for. Finally, I started pulling a piece of Vise Bio Skin Pro completely over my thumb. There is tape front and back. This eliminated any skin quality issues and also a blister that was trying to form on the pad of my thumb.
Monday night, I went 167, 179, 200. It wasn't great shooting by any stretch, but I never hung up in the ball the whole night. If anything, I came out of a few shots too quickly. I was very cautious at trying new hand/wrist positions.
Tonight, I decided to mostly let fly. I started 175 in a shaky game. I then went 190 in game two despite starting with 5 of the first 6 strikes (I finished with three splits).
Last game -- 9/, 9/, nine in a row. On the 11th pitch, something in the machine chipped out the new thumb plug. I had to basically pinch the ball for the last shot, which left the 3-6-10. I shot 276 and was able to make small adjustments throughout the game.
Again, I did not hang up in the ball all night. I never would have believed I could even get out of the ball at 3/8 forward. Now, I think I could actually go further forward, but I really don't need to. My wrist pain while bowling is basically gone, as is my elbow and forearm pain. There is some general tiredness in my wrist right now, but nothing I can't cope with. I can make a strong fist, which I once could not do following three games of bowling.
So it looks like I've got this licked. That Bio Skin Pro stuff is a godsend my itself, but coupled with the new pitches, I feel like I'm holding a pillow rather than a bowling ball.
Jess
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 08, 2012, 09:21:40 AM
As my coach says...
"Intermittent success is one of the most misleading elements of sport and life".
I hope your 276 is one of many 260+ and 800+ games in the future.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS can you LOOP and play straight? A good friend of mine, interested only in his sport condition results and no interest in open league conditions has gone from 1/8 under to 3/8 lateral out. His average in top hat league was 228 and is now 208. His sport average is up 3 and he has never "felt better" or "bowled better" he says. He now can only strike when playing straight up 9. He is a righty. His coke bottle test is for 1/4 under lateral.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 2/8/2012 at 4:51 PM
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on February 08, 2012, 10:36:53 AM
Jess, something I think no one else has mentioned that you need to be careful of is thumb hole taper; that is the top of the hole being larger than the bottom. Especially if you are "working out" the hole, its easy to make the upper part of the hole (below the bevel area) larger than the bottom. This has come back to bite me where the thumb either sticks or comes off all at once. This can be checked with an inside caliper or a micrometer and snap gauges.
Post by: JessN16 on February 12, 2012, 08:40:27 PM
Bowled Thursday on our Kegel Challenge league: 232-193-202. Ball never stuck once. I like it.
Jess
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2012, 08:47:14 PM
it's not a matter of whether you hang up or can clear it...it is a matter of whether the ball is coming off your hand at the proper angle. Merely being able to release the ball can be accomplished by simply dropping the ball. If you have to manipulate your hand at release to let go of the ball, this would be incorrect.
The angle of the thumb hole is so to stay on your hand throughout the swing without having to grip or hold onto and release when gravity pulls it off...you should not have to manipulate anything to let got of the ball to have the ability to release the ball and apply proper forces to the ball.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: JessN16 on February 12, 2012, 11:38:52 PM
I understand what you're saying. It seems now that I can do what it is you describe.
There is a good chance the first 21 years of my "career," such as it is, has been played while using the wrong grip.
My first driller was a guy who worked as a mechanic at the small bowling alley I bowled in. His theory on bowling ball drilling was that everyone should bowl with a span as stretched out as possible. My current span, cut-to-cut, is 4 1/8 to the middle and 4 3/16 to the ring. Back when he was drilling my stuff, I was almost an inch more stretched out.
Every refit since has shortened my span. But what hasn't changed much in that time were my pitches. I've always been 1/8 away. I used to be 1/4 to 3/8 reverse. When your span is stretched out like a Gumby doll, I suppose you have to have that much reverse.
I'm 39 years old now, and I guess all those years of stretched spans and pitches meant to promote a quick release caught up to me.
The new pitches have not materially changed much about the way my ball rolls. The first few games, I noticed myself coming much straighter up the back of the ball and using less tilt, but Thursday night I was able to start playing around with the amount of tilt. As I become more comfortable that I'm not in danger of smacking myself in the face with the ball, I'll continue to try more things.
What I do know, is that I have not had to sleep in an immobilizer brace the last three nights (no elbow pain), my wrist doesn't hurt during the day and I can give someone a firm handshake without feeling like my wrist was being electrocuted. I also bowled better, and did it pain-free.
The issue is not where I am now; it's that I was apparently in the wrong place all this time.
Jess
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 13, 2012, 07:16:34 AM
Kegel Challenge league....nice scoring. Inside or outside line shot.
If inside you have found it! It sounds like!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: nord on October 25, 2014, 01:54:23 AM
I have struggled with pain in my whole arm and shoulder and thumb nerve to the point that I thought I would not be able to bowl anymore.
I had to use only a 12lb ball and even that was hurting me.
Finally a man named Ron Machniak guided me to a correct fitting and now I am able to use a 15lb ball, something I thought would never be possible.
I had to change to a conventional grip with 1/2 forward in fingers with rubber finger inserts and 11/16 forward in thumb with 1/4 left.
Now the ball holds on much easier and I don't have to death grip it to hold on.
Death gripping the ball puts incredible tension on the whole body and causes tremendous damage to the muscles, tendons and nerves.
Lots of forward and a totally relaxed body is the key to pain free bowling and consistency.
You will not believe how far forward you can go till you try it.
Secondly, to prevent the thumb from swelling or shrinking I wrap the thumb all the way around tightly with bowling tape. This keeps the thumb the same size at all times and protects the thumb from harm.
Then in the front of my thumb hole I put the Master Grip Super Texture tape so the thumb has lots of friction in the front to further prevent the need to squeeze the ball.
Finally I also found the wiping of my ball with my right arm after each throw was causing tendinitis of the elbow. The repetitive wiping after a throw was inflaming the elbow, not the actual bowling. So I stopped wiping with my bowling arm and now use my left arm and the pain has subsided in my right elbow.
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 25, 2014, 05:08:09 PM
Often when one goes to conventional it shortens the span.
For many it shortens the span to less than 4 1/4. At 4 1/4 the tables call for 0 forward to reverse to be Bill Taylor's 64 degree angle.
At 3 1/2 span his 64 degree table would call for forward of 3/8. Nothing unusual here.
Bill for many years believed his tables were a starting point for many bowlers and many bowlers could go forward of the tables as they got better and could relax the thumb also. However their became a point where clearing the thumb became difficult and one would reverse the process...a tad!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS to find someone with a forward pitch with over a 5 inch span is quite unusual. To this day.
Post by: JustRico on October 25, 2014, 07:40:32 PM
Secondly, much of what the release creates is from the proper position of the wrist, in support and the angle of the swing plane...improper positions create unnecessary squeezing, thus over time creating tendinitis...
When the pain is from the inside, it relates to the ring finger at release...my suggestion is to change nothing else and cut the reverse an 1/8" to zero...too many changes or too much angle change is difficult to 'nail' down future changes or adjustments...
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 25, 2014, 10:17:20 PM
He says black.
You can bet on it.
Regards,
Luckylefty
Post by: JustRico on October 25, 2014, 10:27:18 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 25, 2014, 11:13:08 PM
Regards,
Luckylefty
Potato...PotAHto
Post by: JustRico on October 26, 2014, 09:53:10 AM
Post by: kotm on October 26, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
Nord was already in a painfully poor conventional and was considering quitting. I just made some suggestions to help put his hand in a better position so that he could continue to enjoy our sport. Perhaps we'll get him into a fingertip this summer...
Keep up the good bowling Nord!
ron
Post by: xrayjay on October 26, 2014, 12:52:18 PM
-BL
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 26, 2014, 07:56:29 PM
Luckylefty
Post by: Good Times Good Times on October 27, 2014, 01:32:20 PM
Resume?
http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/author/ric-hamlin/
"Ric Hamlin is a bowling industry veteran with many years of experience as an elite bowler, pro shop operator, and coach. Ric was the assistant manager of the Storm / Dexter / KR booth at the 1995 ABC National Tournament, the Director of Pro Shop Operations for the Coast Casinos / The Orleans from 2000 to 2003, Brunswick’s Northwest Product Specialist from 2003 to 2008, and he is currently a Sales Specialist for Steve Cook’s Bowling Supply. Since 2005, Ric has been the Assistant Coach of the Fresno State Bulldogs. He is the co-founder of Hamlin Yamasaki Bowling Concepts and he is the co-author of both Head Games: the Mental Approach of Bowling and Sports and (r)eVolve, a technical course on fitting, drilling, layouts and ball motion."
Fitting (as to relate to the OP).
Layouts (as to relate to "cgnomaddah")
Pretty strong......
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 27, 2014, 02:01:11 PM
I know ballreviews for quite some time let "Pro" bowlers have multiple identities so they can....?
Well, I never figured the so they can.....part out. He must be glad to have you as his friend and promoter or as another post identity.
From his ID out here one would never know all these accomplishments, I guess he is very humble.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I never said he didn't know anything. Oh, his book has his fitting rules in it? His flare adjusting rules in it? Is that a second book from Head games? Never knew that till your post. PS I am happy for him that he was able to keep working in the bowling industry.
PPS millions of people are still being fit with the Bill Taylor rules and are throwing the ball quite well. He was quite smart old codger in his day!
Post by: JustRico on October 27, 2014, 02:07:38 PM
Glad you choose to use an outdated book over an advanced progressive technical manual...that covers today's game and bowlers comfort over one scribed 40 yrs ago...but then again I do this as a living and you, well don't
Post by: JustRico on October 27, 2014, 02:11:09 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 27, 2014, 02:49:25 PM
I didn't even know you were employed in the bowling industry still, congratulations that is not easy these days I hear.
Did I mentioned too humble above....scratch that.
"Cryptic and Caustic"....I wonder if words like that have ever been said in the air before.? For example some people when hearing the name of Bill Taylor might have said, "Bill was a great figure in the sport and a pioneer". "His concepts were close to today's on fit and are the foundation many other's have built on". Have you ever considered an approach similar to that? Something to think about....?
A book on fitting and flare adjustment? is that a different title than "Head Games"? ie the title "evolve"?
I read a book called Revolutions and Revolutions 2....not bad. Does this book agree with all of your views?
Not employed in the bowling industry is true! Admirer of those that are, much like being a Minister or social worker not much pay, a lot of desire to help. I would never go that way, but can still admire.
Regards,
Luckylefty
Post by: JustRico on October 27, 2014, 02:55:00 PM
You have your views and I have mine...you can use any words you choose to attack my comments...I'm good...thus why I tend to ignore many f them
And again I don't hide behind a screen name nor do I have multiple logins
Post by: Good Times Good Times on October 27, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
That is a nice resume. Are you him?
No, I'm just entertained at the old conventions people still embrace in the face of empirical evidence by multiple people who truly know their MODERN craft. (Rico, Doom, Kidlost, BrunsNick etc) Why do they all reach a consensus on these topics?
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.bowlingchat.net%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F0%2F0a%2FCggraph.jpg&hash=45bf4354b405f02da1d9ef27e2bb762728e633ff)
Post by: JustRico on October 27, 2014, 03:41:10 PM
Post by: Good Times Good Times on October 27, 2014, 03:48:45 PM
Most tend to not want to admit that others know more than they do or ever will...
But see that's odd to me......I don't understand why someone would remain faithful to an outdated idea (given modern evidence to the contrary). It would be like me questioning NASA on the mars rover using info from 1975 as my "point".
"Of course the floor mat has an effect on the car, it A) exists and B) they weigh 1lb and the car is 3500 lbs"
Wouldn't that, in effect, be saying the ESPN in-car camera has an effect on a NASCAR? If you can show me it doesn't, I don't understand what the payoff is, for me, in maintaining my stance when you show me evidence otherwise.
Post by: JustRico on October 27, 2014, 06:59:41 PM