Post by: Kgoff on February 09, 2009, 04:32:37 AM
Ball is drilled 5.5 inches pin under with a hole in the thumb quadrant center of grip through cg at 6 inches. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Post by: johns811 on February 09, 2009, 12:34:11 PM
Post by: Kgoff on February 09, 2009, 12:34:24 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 09, 2009, 01:28:13 PM
What does your proshop say? I would have them weigh it and see where the static weights are. I have heard some funny stuff now that the balls are coming out of Mexico. The marked cg may have not been marked correctly.
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Edited on 2/9/2009 2:32 PM
Post by: wpzone on February 09, 2009, 04:09:05 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 09, 2009, 05:19:12 PM
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 09, 2009, 05:22:34 PM
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Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
Striking Results Pro Shop
Red Carpet Lanes
Duluth (NE Atlanta), Georgia
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: Brian362 on February 09, 2009, 05:43:43 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 09, 2009, 05:47:33 PM
Actually every bowler is different, as far as what point a ball will back flare. 0 is different for every bowler. For some it could 6" and others the ball merely gets to 0 flare.
Anyways, statics or CG are irrelevant as far as the flare goes or the amount.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JohnP on February 09, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 09, 2009, 09:21:55 PM
quote:
JustRico -- How can the pin be mismarked? As I understand the pin is located where the pin in the ball mold holds the core in place. Then the hole that is left in the ball is filled, leaving the dot on the ball that we call the pin. Could the core have been installed upside down? -- JohnP
I was thinking the same thing that the core was upside down.. but anything can happen.. There are a couple of holes in the core from what I have seen during manufacturing .. one is the pin/top of the core other is in the side to hold it in the mold..
or they mismarked the cg and the ball really has ton of negative weight.
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Post by: JustRico on February 09, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
The core is placed in the mold and there is a stem that holds it in the mold. The stem is removed after demolding. The stem would be where the pin is placed, after the cover is poured.
When the core is cut down on a lathe. The core is not always pinned to the pin. This happens very rarely but can happen. This will cause the ball to back flare or invert.
Ball reaction is not predicated by CG placement or static weights. Surface dictates how quickly the ball responds to oil and friction, as well as how quickly it slows down. Pin to PAP creates flare.
CG placement predicates the necessity of a weight hole, in regards to current USBC regulations on static weight.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Edited on 2/9/2009 10:39 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 09, 2009, 09:48:17 PM
quote:
For the last time...CG IS IRRELEVANT. STATIC WEIGHTS will NOT MAKE A BALL FLARE BACKWARDS.
The core is placed in the mold and there is a stem that holds it in the mold. The stem is removed after demolding. The stem would be where the pin is placed, after the cover is poured.
When the core is cut down on a lathe. The core is not always pinned to the pin. This happens very rarely but can happen. This will cause the ball to back flare or invert.
Ball reaction is not predicated by CG placement or static weights. Surface dictates how quickly the ball responds to oil and friction, as well as how quickly it slows down. Pin to PAP creates flare.
CG placement predicates the necessity of a weight hole, in regards to current USBC regulations on static weight.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Edited on 2/9/2009 10:39 PM
please explain how what you are saying makes the ball backflare?
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Post by: JustRico on February 09, 2009, 09:54:09 PM
If you place a pin too close to the PAP or behind it, it can accomplish a similar response.
Safe zones are within a half an inch, depending on the core differential or strength, of the track as well as the PAP. This also needs to be considered when placing a pin on the perceived VAL.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: J_w73 on February 09, 2009, 10:11:35 PM
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Post by: JustRico on February 09, 2009, 10:13:42 PM
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: J_w73 on February 10, 2009, 09:00:01 AM
quote:
Yes...
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Formerly BrunsRico
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Post by: jbuzz31 on February 10, 2009, 09:06:55 AM
quote:
When the pin, which dictates where the top of the core or mass is located, is placed either too close or past a positive stable point in a bowling ball, back flaring or an inverted track can occur. Stable points are the PAP and the track. If you place a pin too close to the track, it is pulled towards the track, thus inverting the flares or pulling the flares onto the grip.
If you place a pin too close to the PAP or behind it, it can accomplish a similar response.
Safe zones are within a half an inch, depending on the core differential or strength, of the track as well as the PAP. This also needs to be considered when placing a pin on the perceived VAL.
dont mean to hijack the thread, but ive been pondering a pin in track drilling on a stronger ball. so if im understanding what your saying correctly, putting the pin in/very close to the track can cause the ball to flare towards the grip rather than away from it?
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Ive Eaten From The Insane Root That Imprisons Reason
Post by: JustRico on February 10, 2009, 10:44:41 AM
Quote
thanks.. you the man.. sorry for being stupid..Quote
Asking questions and learning is not being stupid...it's called learning.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JohnP on February 10, 2009, 11:32:40 AM
quote:
When the core is cut down on a lathe. The core is not always pinned to the pin. This happens very rarely but can happen. This will cause the ball to back flare or invert.
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that.
Now, regarding "reverse flare", my thought has always been that the direction the track flares is simply a function of where the bowtie is. In "normal" layouts, the bowtie is located around the finger holes, plus or minus an inch or so. So the flare is away from the thumb hole and toward the finger holes. The approximate bowtie location is determined by drawing a line from the PAP through the pin to the track. So, for example, if a ball is drilled with the pin below the grip midline the bowtie could be below the thumb hole and the flare would be toward both the thumb and finger holes, or what we call "reversed". Is this correct? -- JohnP
Post by: JustRico on February 10, 2009, 11:46:56 AM
Pin placement (height) is used for track manipulation, to avoid gripping holes.
On an inverted or reverse flaring track, the bow tie placement is generally irrelevant. It will usually start out in the same position as a normal or 3/4 roll track migration.
The only concern of the bow tie is too control the track migration so that it migrates around the gripping holes.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Edited on 2/10/2009 12:48 PM
Post by: johns811 on February 10, 2009, 11:56:54 AM
quote:
When the pin, which dictates where the top of the core or mass is located, is placed either too close or past a positive stable point in a bowling ball, back flaring or an inverted track can occur. Stable points are the PAP and the track. If you place a pin too close to the track, it is pulled towards the track, thus inverting the flares or pulling the flares onto the grip.
If you place a pin too close to the PAP or behind it, it can accomplish a similar response.
Safe zones are within a half an inch, depending on the core differential or strength, of the track as well as the PAP. This also needs to be considered when placing a pin on the perceived VAL.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JustRico on February 10, 2009, 12:04:46 PM
The track follows the pin towards the PAP or NAP. This is what creates migration. The pin is flaring towards the preferred spin axis.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Edited on 2/10/2009 1:05 PM
Post by: johns811 on February 10, 2009, 12:08:45 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 10, 2009, 12:12:12 PM
If the flare is catching the middle finger hole, you can drill the ring finger deeper, which can push the bow tie up and away from the MF. Might not always move it much, but it can't hurt.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JohnP on February 10, 2009, 02:49:45 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 10, 2009, 08:11:33 PM
The only time you see a ball roll out or lose it's lateral rotation is do to speed. Flare out is lateral rotation and roll out is flare out plus lack of speed.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JohnP on February 11, 2009, 10:06:44 AM
Post by: Kgoff on February 11, 2009, 01:56:39 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 11, 2009, 09:46:09 PM
Part of what creates the flare is dependant on the core strength or RG diff and the strength of the release.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: Kgoff on February 12, 2009, 08:25:59 AM
I was actually thinking since the ball flared backwards less after the flare increasing hole was added it did increase flare. If you look at it like math. you have a negative number and add a positive you get a smaller negative. Made sense to me anyway. I understand flare and ball dynamics, this one just had me puzzled.
Post by: los2003 on February 12, 2009, 08:32:32 AM
quote:
JustRico -- How can the pin be mismarked? As I understand the pin is located where the pin in the ball mold holds the core in place. Then the hole that is left in the ball is filled, leaving the dot on the ball that we call the pin. Could the core have been installed upside down? -- JohnP
Edited on 2/12/2009 9:35 AM
Edited on 2/12/2009 9:42 AM
Post by: JohnP on February 12, 2009, 09:42:51 AM
quote:
The reason for flare is the core is in a state of instability or imbalance. What is happening is the pin or core is trying to stabilize itself or find its preferred spin axis, thus creating flare.
This part I understand
quote:
The pin is chasing the PAP in a sense. The track is migrating towards the PAP, the pin is creating this. It sounds as if you are thinking if the pin is 5" from the PAP, the ball should flare 5" to find it's PSA but that's not correct.
Here's where I have trouble visualizing what's happening. As the track flares, the PAP also moves. It makes sense that the most stable location for the pin would be on the PAP, but for most "standard" layouts with the bowtie below the pin the flare moves the pin toward the track, which would seem to be away from the PAP instead of toward it. For example, say the layout is 4" pin to PAP. When the track flares (at least theoretically) to the pin, the pin to PAP would be 6 3/4", right? So the pin has moved away from the PAP? When the pin reaches the track it is an a fairly stable position, though not as stable as when the pin is on the PAP. Do you know of any website that has drawings of how this all happens? Maybe then it would make sense to me.
quote:
Part of what creates the flare is dependant on the core strength or RG diff and the strength of the release.
Yes, plus the pin to PAP distance of the layout. Again, thanks for yout patience and help. -- JohnP
Post by: batbowler on February 12, 2009, 09:58:26 AM
Let's see if I can explain my question clearly! The distance around the ball is 131/2", so if you place the pin to pap over 63/4" it can flare backwards, cause the closer distance to pap is around the backside of the ball is that correct thinking? So, if the pin was mismarked and he thought that it was a 53/4" pin to pap and was actually close to maybe 7" the distance from actual pin to pap would be 61/2" around the opposite side of the ball compared to the 7". Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way, but it's just my thinking! Thanks, Bruce
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"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 03:22:47 PM
quote:
Rico is the man! Honestly every "Dumb" Question I have asked him, he just answers it in a serious manner. Sure he may be laughing his butt off at some of our questions, but at least he answers them. Most people bash someone on a dumb question. Thanks Rico!
We all have/had to learn somewhere and somehow.
Glad you got something from it.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 03:22:48 PM
quote:
Rico is the man! Honestly every "Dumb" Question I have asked him, he just answers it in a serious manner. Sure he may be laughing his butt off at some of our questions, but at least he answers them. Most people bash someone on a dumb question. Thanks Rico!
We all have/had to learn somewhere and somehow.
Glad you got something from it.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
quote:
Rico
I was actually thinking since the ball flared backwards less after the flare increasing hole was added it did increase flare. If you look at it like math. you have a negative number and add a positive you get a smaller negative. Made sense to me anyway. I understand flare and ball dynamics, this one just had me puzzled.
My response was not to you it was to JohnP.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 03:31:06 PM
quote:
Justrico,
Let's see if I can explain my question clearly! The distance around the ball is 131/2", so if you place the pin to pap over 63/4" it can flare backwards, cause the closer distance to pap is around the backside of the ball is that correct thinking? So, if the pin was mismarked and he thought that it was a 53/4" pin to pap and was actually close to maybe 7" the distance from actual pin to pap would be 61/2" around the opposite side of the ball compared to the 7". Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way, but it's just my thinking! Thanks, Bruce
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"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com
Simply put...yes.
But if your track circumference is not 13 1/2", then your 0 number or 6 3/4" from the PAP would not be 6 3/4", it may be 6". It will vary for every bowler. When I lay out a ball and I do not either know the bowler or just to be safe, I never put a pin farther than 5 3/4-6" from PAP. It is better to be safe than sorry.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 03:42:02 PM
The pin is migrating towards a stable position. At some point it will reach if it is allowed to, depending on speed and rev rate. The distance between the pin and the PAP narrows as it travels down the lane.
If you notice when you place weight holes down the VAL, that eventually that hole becomes the PAP as it is traveling down the lane, usually around the midlane. This allows the ball to respond to the midlanes better.
Generally the path the axis follows, depending on pin height is going to be towards the gripping holes. If the pin is down, the path migrates towards the thumb. If the pin is up, it generally migrates towards the center of the holes or the ring finger.
Hopefully this is making sense...
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: JohnP on February 12, 2009, 07:40:43 PM
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 08:19:16 PM
I just got off a plane flight, in which almost the entire flight I was trying to think of better ways to describe this, because honestly without diagrams it is hard to grasp.
PM me with your location and maybe I can work something out...
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: BrunsNick on February 12, 2009, 08:37:57 PM
www.brunsnick.com/loc.jpg
kthxbye
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: batbowler on February 12, 2009, 10:39:04 PM
Thanks for the reply and that was my thinking and I hope a lot of people will pay attention to this post when they think they want a longer pin to pap! I appreciate your input on these topics and your knowledge is invaluable to us pro shop guys who want to learn all we can! Thanks, Bruce
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"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
www.rotogear.com
Post by: JustRico on February 12, 2009, 10:42:12 PM
Glad I could help.
BNick
Can you be a little more specific...
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: BrunsNick on February 13, 2009, 01:55:53 AM
Talk to you soon Mr. Pidasso.
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: FrontTwelv on February 15, 2009, 04:49:15 PM
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Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Post by: JustRico on February 15, 2009, 07:37:23 PM
I would suggest going 3 3/8" away from the presumed/perceived mass bias, down the VAL. This should have a better chance of opening up the flares.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: J_w73 on February 15, 2009, 08:22:11 PM
quote:
a little off topic, i have a no mercy that has the hart on the right side of thumb (should be left side). this is causing the ball to flare a very small amount, and it does flare "backwards". If I pop a large hole in the true mb (6 3/4 to the right, perpendicular to the line drawn from pin the hart) will this negate the mb value and cause the ball to flare correctly?
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Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Yeah.. if your hart is to the right of the thumbhole then the actual MB is past the PAP. This is more than likely your problem. Who drilled it wrong?
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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22
Post by: FrontTwelv on February 16, 2009, 06:53:44 AM
quote:
Yeah.. if your hart is to the right of the thumbhole then the actual MB is past the PAP. This is more than likely your problem. Who drilled it wrong?
it was drilled for cheetah pattern, ball did what it was supposed to do for the individual who had it before me. i was just looking to get it to flip a bit more, and yes the mb is like an inch away from my VAL.
Ric, knowing this should i still go down the VAL 3 3/8 off the mb?
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Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH
Post by: JustRico on February 16, 2009, 07:02:11 AM
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Formerly BrunsRico