Post by: kleptic on September 26, 2007, 07:48:57 AM
I see a lot of people say put it on the val or near the val or between the val and track. Isn't saying put something near val kind of like saying put something near ring finger since they are both based on grip and not an actual axis the ball is rotating on?
wouldn't the only measurement really accurate on the val be a specific distance from the axis and not just any place on the val itself?
also I'm wondering about degree layouts people use to say where to put the MB, if you can draw your degree line between the MB-pin and pin-PAP, then you can rotate that to put the pin where you want and that in turn swings the mass bias around, doesnt that make a degree layout different for each person depending on that bowler and how they rotated the degree around?
or maybe neither of those ways to layout the massbias are perfect/best? are there other ways?
I've never really fully understood the effects of mass bias and how to tell what those effects are exactly so I'm hoping somebody can explain it in some detail.
thanks
Post by: shelley on September 26, 2007, 04:03:09 PM
SH
Post by: kleptic on September 27, 2007, 03:28:08 AM
Post by: Raven829 on September 27, 2007, 04:00:50 AM
Don
--------------------
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
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Post by: kleptic on September 27, 2007, 04:21:23 AM
http://www.currahee-usbc.org/korner/layouts/layout.png
on this website
http://www.currahee-usbc.org/korner/layouts/index.php
first off this guys method seems off considering most people use a val based on midline not axis of rotation.
on that note it seems like a good picture for visualizing the area between the track and rotational val but does that placement between track and val matter or is it distance to pap that really matters.
a little confusing
I want to get some new bowling balls, but I wan't to understand MB placement before I get anything.
Edited on 9/27/2007 4:23 AM
Post by: Raven829 on September 27, 2007, 04:31:25 AM
Don
--------------------
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
~Dusty Baker being a total fool
Post by: kleptic on September 27, 2007, 07:40:22 AM
https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm
the chart shows different MB to pap distances to use for various pin to pap distances and shows what effect they have.
would still like to know if thats the actual measurement that matters for MB reactions. because the various methods of layout seem to say different things some of the time.
I almost always see people saying the MB is layed out in degree's or just in a general location like so far from thumbhole. if the real measurement that matters is distance from pap why do so many people list it the other way?
hopefully somebody can post something definitive about it.
Post by: JohnP on September 27, 2007, 10:41:06 AM
quote:
I almost always see people saying the MB is layed out in degree's or just in a general location like so far from thumbhole. if the real measurement that matters is distance from pap why do so many people list it the other way?
These are two different ways of determining the MB location as related to the pin, PAP, and grip centerline. Both work, it's a matter of which your driller thinks is easier. My personal preference is two distances (ie., 5" x 4"), because I have an Armadillo that makes that system very simple. With that system, the two dimensions determine the MB to pin to PAP angle. For drillers that only have a ProSect, the MB to pin to PAP angle is easier to work with. With this system, the MB to pin to PAP angle determine the two distances. Most layouts in the sheets that come with the ball now use the angle system, so that's what I usually use now, since customers want to be able to compare what I'm doing to the sheet. Either of these systems sets the PAP location, but to complete the layout one other dimension is required. Usually this dimension is either distance from the midline to the pin or distance from the VAL to the pin. The "general location" system will not be used by a knowledgeable driller unless dealing with a new bowler where the PAP location cannot be accurately determined. -- JohnP
Post by: kleptic on September 27, 2007, 08:32:14 PM
Post by: JohnP on September 28, 2007, 10:17:56 AM
Post by: kleptic on September 28, 2007, 12:30:27 PM
example: people say 75 degree is strong MB layout. does it matter at all what way you rotate that, or do you always get the strongest MB strength at 75 degrees regardless of if your pin height from midline or pin-val buffer puts the MB in your track or on your val or some place in between?
thanks for the responses and helping me fully understand how this works
Post by: JohnP on September 28, 2007, 10:01:02 PM
quote:
basically what a degree layout does is rotate the MB around the pap while staying the same distance away.
The pin is the vertex of the angle (MB to pin to PAP). The pin to PAP distance also sets the MB to PAP distance. If you select any one of the three to be stationary, you could consider the other two to rotate around it. Since we're setting the pin position it would be more accurate to think of the MB and PAP as rotating around the pin.
The pin to PAP and MB to PAP distances are the most important. The final parameter used to finalize the layout is much less important.
quote:
example: people say 75 degree is strong MB layout. does it matter at all what way you rotate that, or do you always get the strongest MB strength at 75 degrees regardless of if your pin height from midline or pin-val buffer puts the MB in your track or on your val or some place in between?
Remember, when you move the MB you also move the PAP, since the MB to pin to PAP angle remains constant. If the MB is, for example, 2" from the PAP it will never end up in the track. I'm afraid I'm just confusing you. I wish others would chime in. -- JohnP
Edited on 9/29/2007 11:09 AM
Post by: kleptic on September 29, 2007, 01:05:39 AM
this is what makes me think that degree layouts are broken for MB positions because not everybody tracks the same. a MB position at 75 degrees for a low tracker is going to be a good distance away from their track.
the main reason I worry about this is I track very high and my track is angled closer to thumb and farther from fingers. so the MB position with degree layouts can very easily put the MB in my track.
from what you are saying John it sounds like you believe the pap to MB distance to be the main factor and that it doesnt matter if 5 inches from the pap puts the MB in your track or halfway between your track and your val. its still going to be the strongest MB position. you haven't exactly said that though so I'm still not sure
Post by: JohnP on September 29, 2007, 11:27:50 AM
quote:
Isn't Pin to MB static depending on the ball?
Yep, I meant to say MB to PAP. I've corrected the original post, hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.
quote:
from what you are saying John it sounds like you believe the pap to MB distance to be the main factor and that it doesnt matter if 5 inches from the pap puts the MB in your track or halfway between your track and your val. its still going to be the strongest MB position. you haven't exactly said that though so I'm still not sure
Somehow I'm not making this clear. If you do what you're calling moving the MB, the PAP and pin move also. The grip center (and the centerline and midline) moves with the PAP, and the track moves with the grip center. So as long as you don't change the pin and MB to PAP distances (or the MB to pin to PAP angle) the relationship between the MB and the track remains constant. The only way to get it into the track is to set the MB to PAP distance (or MB to pin to PAP angle) so that it is always in the track no matter where you set the pin in relation to the midline or VAL. This MB to PAP distance would be somewhere around 7", which is indeed weak. If you can try it on a ball, I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about. -- JohnP
Post by: kleptic on September 29, 2007, 12:59:51 PM
think of the |, /, or \ being the val and the < being the angle of pin to pap and pin to MB
|< or \< or /<
your grip center is in relation to the VAL not the pap-pin-mb angle. so you can change the angle the val intersects the pap at while the pap-pin-mb angle remains constant, this moves the MB and pin in relation to your grip.
Edited on 9/29/2007 1:01 PM
Post by: JohnP on September 29, 2007, 08:46:40 PM
OK, one more try from a different perspective.
Bowler's PAP location is 5 1/2" straight across the midline (very typical, chosen because it takes the up and down variable out). MB is 6 3/4" from the pin (true on all but the most sophisticated asymmetrical cores and very close even on those). Layout chosen is 4" PAP to pin and 4" PAP to MB. These distances are CONSTANTS. If they are changed, the layout changes.
The distance to the track is something more than 5 1/2", probably about 7".
Now, explain to me how the MB, which is constant at 4" from the PAP can get into the track, which is 7" away from the PAP. -- JohnP
Post by: kleptic on September 29, 2007, 11:09:36 PM
75 degrees is known as the strong mass bias position
draw your MB-pin line
mark a line 75 degrees from it
mark your pap down that new line 4 inches
draw a arc around the pin 3 inches for a 3 inch pin-val buffer
connect the outside of that arc with your pap to form your val
now go down from the pap 3/4 and over 5 1/4 to find my grip center, using my spans in my profile draw the grip.
using 75 degree and a 4 inch pin puts the MB on my storm triple xtreme I was throwing this layout on for testing for this post at about 6 1/4 inches from the pap.
now in relation to my pap draw my track .5 from thumbhole, you will see that that the MB is nearly on my track. maybe half an inch away.
cleary not a position of strongest instability. I think this shows that degree layouts do not work for everybody for laying out MB.
so I'm wondering how to properly lay out MB to predict with certainty the reaction you are going to get from its position, not just a guestimate.
half way between the val and the track seems like the measurement that makes the most sense to me.
if by your 4x4 example you agree that we shouldnt use degree layouts for mass position then we need to know what different distances from the pap means. there are the charts from morich, one based on a mass bias of 6 3/4 and one for another one of their cores that I think has a 7 inch mass bias, and from those charts the skid/flip mass bias to pap distance changes based on pin-pap distance. so for example using 4 inches pap-mb distance with a 3 inch pin-pap is going to have a different MB effect than the same 4 inch pap-mb distance with a 5 inch pin.
the chart showing this is viewable at the bottom of
https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm
the variable effects of static distance for pap to mb make me think that the pap to mb distance is also not the best way to layout mb.
so far i've read nothing to the contrary of halfway between val and track being the strongest mass bias position. so it seems like all these other layout methods just try to mimic or get close to that position without just flat out saying put the MB between the track and the val.
that was long, let me know what you think.
Post by: JohnP on September 30, 2007, 02:53:22 PM
quote:
half way between the val and the track seems like the measurement that makes the most sense to me.
if by your 4x4 example you agree that we shouldnt use degree layouts for mass position then we need to know what different distances from the pap means. there are the charts from morich, one based on a mass bias of 6 3/4 and one for another one of their cores that I think has a 7 inch mass bias, and from those charts the skid/flip mass bias to pap distance changes based on pin-pap distance. so for example using 4 inches pap-mb distance with a 3 inch pin-pap is going to have a different MB effect than the same 4 inch pap-mb distance with a 5 inch pin.
Then rotate the MB-pin-PAP angle around the PAP so the MB is halfway between the track and the VAL if that's what you think makes sense. That will change the pin buffer, perhaps to around 4 1/2" and lower the pin to in or under the fingers while maintaining the 75 degree angle. Remember, the MB position is a small influence on the ball reaction. Pin to PAP distance is THE MAJOR INFLUENCE. If you're not a near-pro quality bowler you probably won't be able to tell any difference between 60 deg, 75 deg, 90 deg. Either system works, just two ways to do the same thing. If I had selected 4" x 6" we'd have had about the same layout as your example.
The 4 x 4 examples shows that the MB only goes where you allow it to by the parameters you set on the layout. -- JohnP
Post by: Mike Austin on September 30, 2007, 03:33:31 PM
Maybe this will help:
http://www.mikeaustinbowling.net/specialagentlayout.html
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Post by: kleptic on September 30, 2007, 04:05:27 PM
Post by: kleptic on September 30, 2007, 04:14:35 PM
quote:
If you're not a near-pro quality bowler you probably won't be able to tell any difference between 60 deg, 75 deg, 90 deg. Either system works, just two ways to do the same thing. If I had selected 4" x 6" we'd have had about the same layout as your example.
The 4 x 4 examples shows that the MB only goes where you allow it to by the parameters you set on the layout. -- JohnP
why buy premium balls and not know/care how you are laying them out. doesnt make much sense to me to do that. and yeah the MB goes where you put it, the question is where to put it and why.
I guess I'll figure it out!
assuming that half way between track and val is a good place for the MB, what happens when the MB gets too low and say its .5 from the val and .5 from the track because you are down in the corner of the angle that they create when they meet.
I still have a lot of questions about MB, seems a lot more complex than pin placement!
thanks for the help though guys. I keep redoing layouts on my balls, hopefully eventually I decide on something and go get them drilled, heh
Post by: Mike Austin on September 30, 2007, 05:19:40 PM
quote:
thats a good page for showing how to do a degree layout mike, I already know that though. what I don't know/understand is if a degree is layout is uniform for MB reaction for people with all track sizes/locations.
It is uniform because it is based on YOUR PAP. The same layout can look different for different people. Your track coincides with your PAP.
The degrees is not so important for a high track player as is the pin position. If you get the pin position too low in the grip, the track can be drawn up on the finger holes. If you feel that this is an issue for you, use pins over the fingers or next to them, not to many under.
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Post by: strikingresults-atl on September 30, 2007, 07:49:31 PM
checkout Mo's new system.Its very accurate system and very tweakable.He explains the differece between a small buffer and a large buffer and the reaction you will receive.Call morich or go to one of the seminars he was a cd to explain it.
--------------------
Dannial Cohen
Ebonite Regional staffer/turbo
www.strikingresultsatl.com
Post by: kleptic on October 01, 2007, 12:39:18 AM
Post by: kleptic on October 01, 2007, 12:42:35 AM
none of the seminars are even remotely close to Fort Lauderdale
Post by: JohnP on October 01, 2007, 02:37:19 PM
quote:
assuming that half way between track and val is a good place for the MB, what happens when the MB gets too low and say its .5 from the val and .5 from the track because you are down in the corner of the angle that they create when they meet.
Look at where the pin would be. It is probably near the grip center, which makes it close to a Rico1 layout. That layout reads early with a smooth continuous arc to the pocket. Very controllable. With your PAP location, it will probably need a balance hole in the positive thumb quadrant to move the track away from the finger holes. After the angle (or distances) is set, pin height tells you more about reaction than MB location does, but of course they move together. -- JohnP
Post by: RealBowler on October 05, 2007, 09:54:57 AM
If you pick a layout, say 4x5, can you still manipulate the MB position?
Basically, don't you need another measurement, like pin so many inches above midline, or CG within a certain distance of grip or something?
If you measure 4 from the pin, 5 from the MB, where they intersect is the PAP. But from there, you can draw your up/down measurement in any direction, or you can draw your midline in any direction, right? Maybe not direction, maybe I should say any angle off of that PAP.
It seems like that is altering the angle (I guess using the degree system??).
Sorry, I don't really get into all the drilling stuff - using the inch system seems the easiest, but I've never actually done it, only what I've seen on this site.
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Post by: dizzyfugu on October 05, 2007, 10:09:27 AM
Well, a strong MB core is basically set up like a normal core with a low MB. With the pin placement, relative to your PAP, you determine how much the ball will flare, and with the pin difference from grip center you determine how long it will go before it makes its move. That's nothing new.
The mass bias and its position (relative to PAP or any other coordinate, even though the PAP is the most important and basic point of orientation) will tell you then what the reaction shape will be. This is different from overall hook potential. Stack it, and the ball will be snappy, put it closer to the PAP and the move will be more arcing.
Take a look at Brunswick's drilling sheets, they give a good idea on basic layouts:
http://www.brunswickbowling.com/uploads/cD/9c/cD9cYxo_H5qv6qNoJDawxQ/Zone_Classic.pdf
You just need to watch out wehn you place the MB in the track area (135° layout, or a label drilling) for a high tracker - this might lead to negative flare.
Since the MB overrides the CG effects, its location is of minor importance for the reaction, even though it is important for static weights and getting the ball legal.
--------------------
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Post by: KDawg77 on October 05, 2007, 10:12:07 AM
slope to the left like Gumby.
Munster front, Wyclef right.
Hook that up for me.
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