BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: LuckyLefty on December 17, 2005, 05:35:09 PM
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A while back I posted a question on the drilling method called the "Bunnetta method" (it appears that it was the method recommended by AMF for a long time.
Anyway I got my hands on the stuff...and found some very interesting material and I have some observations I'll try to get out on this board over the next couple of days!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 10/30/2007 11:56 AM
Edited on 11/18/2007 6:44 AM
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I assume this method is from Bill Bunetta from Fresno, CA?
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Scott
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I don't know...have not been around bowling that long...
It was at a center that had sort of a drilling manual for an amf jig and a ball fitting manual for an amf ball fitter.
Anyway...if you know Mr. Bunneta (the real thing)...maybe he will comein and elaborate.
Here are the basics of the method as I saw it!
1. Get the flexibility of the thumb for forward reverse purposes.
This is done by moving the thumb diagonally towards the baby finger. The tip of the thumb is then bent down and an evaluation is done as to how much a line drawn from the last thumb joint thru the middle of the tip of the thumb is above or below "the heartline". (The heartline is the crease in your hand closest to your fingers). Examples of the results from above. if this line is 1/4 above the heartline then a person uses 1/4 reverse. Below the heartline by 1/8(a flexible thumb) one uses 1/8 forward.
NOTE...it doesn't matter what one's span is this is the forward reverse pitch used for their thumb and this is contrasted in the literature to other methods that do make this adjustment!
2. Lateral pitches are determined. Using a pencil pickup from a table method using thumb and middle two bowling fingers. If thumb points toward ring lateral under palm. If thumb points toward middle finger then lateral away from palm and if thumb points in between then 0 lateral pitch. He indicates that a lot of lateral either way is not desired. Other confirming tests are used. Grab non bowling forearm with an underhand grip from bowling hand. If thumb at ring...well you get it. Touch thumb to middle finger then middle of middle and ring and then touch ring.....Where is thumb most comfortable...if ring then lateral under palm...you get the rest. All 3 tests are used ot confirm lateral thumb pitch.
3. Difference in span length is determined. Hand is held up and examined with flat of palm facing the observer.If the middle finger when held up is much longer than ring then spans of ring and middle are near equal. If middle and ring are "close" to the same length than the ring is longer.
Choice is made for relaxed fingertip(showing about a pencil under hand when hand in ball. OR stretched which has virtually no space under palm
Some interesting comments made regarding rules above.
A. if one has a "longer span"...then it is common for many bowlers to have reverse pitch in the fingers today.(does not distinguish between a "Long span"(say 5 1/4) or a stretched span.
B. If one has one finger span longer than the other. It is very common to make that longer span have more reverse than the other shorter finger to give an equal feel at release.
I found this method very interesting and am actually in the process of testing some of the ideas. I however am not a very good subject to really test out a lot of the concepts since my thumb pitch changes litte with this nethod and my span forward reverse ration is little changed from where I would be using the heartline method. Also my span length's are virtually equal so the reverse more in one finger is not a real option either!
Anyone know out there if this is considered still a viable method of drilling holes for throwers versus the well known Bill Taylor method which sets forward reverse by span length?
I have several other observations re this method but will get back wiht them tomorrow!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 12/19/2005 2:48 AM
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Ironically, having just read this and seeing how my hand's positions are measured by the above "fittings", my current pitches and spans reflect the Bunetta philosophy almost exactly. It's taken me about 10 years of changes to get to this point of comfort and flexibility.
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien
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LL--I'm not sure but Bill Bunetta was a very good coach back in his day not sure if he is still alive. If this is the same method you are speaking of....I do believe he worked with AMF.
He is an ABC Hall of Fame member.
BILL BUNETTA
Fresno, Calif.
Born: Oct. 20, 1919
Inducted 1968
Bunetta, in addition to top-flight individual performances for two decades, gained great respect as one of the games finest instructors. Many young professionals came to Bunetta for advice in the early stages of their careers. He was a member of several famous teams, among them E&B and Pfeiffers of Detroit and Munsingwear of Chicago. He owns five ABC Tournament titles and in 1960 won a PBA title in Fairless Hills, Pa.
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Scott
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whether he is dead or not....I would like him to get on here and detail for us some of his comments which I thought were the most important or interesting part of the method.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Scott33 could you get some feedback for us?
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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LL--I doubt he's still alive. If, so he would be 86 right now. Just not sure. This is why I asked if this method was named after him. It kinda would make sense. I am not old enough to remember his hey day 'Bones might. I do remember talking to Connie Schwoegler years back about him though. Connie was the guy that came up with the finger tip. I'll have to rack my brain a bit.
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Scott
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The highest probability of getting a strike is when the ball hits the pocket with the ball's center on board 17 from a 6.8 degree angle. Given that the pins have been racked properly a strike is an almost given under these conditions. Here in Sweden we quote Bill Bunetta as the source when we teach this as fact in our coach training programme. He came to this conclusion in the sixties by conducting empirical studies on pros and amateurs. A great man, in my view.
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Regards,
jensm
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quote:
Ironically, having just read this and seeing how my hand's positions are measured by the above "fittings", my current pitches and spans reflect the Bunetta philosophy almost exactly. It's taken me about 10 years of changes to get to this point of comfort and flexibility.
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien
I also used that method & determined my pitches are right on. The only variation is more reverse in both fingers because of stiff joints. The thumb is correct. Took me over 40 years to get my grip feeling this good with no release problems, blisters or soreness. This system could have saved me many years of agony. Oh, one other difference is I use the CLT drilling.
Thanks for the post Lucky.
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Wayne
FOS MEMBER
HARDCORE DIAMOND CUTTER
Tis the season "MERRY CHRISTMAS"
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Just to make sure ...the way pictured the thumb is bent down to the "heartline".
This is not quite the same as stretching to the pinky. And also a line is drawn from middle of joint out middle of thumb tip over heartline ...or to heartline or below(forward).
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I'll get back with some thoughts.
PPS also very vague about "how much" longer middle is before equal span.
Bill Taylor very specific...5/16" difference equals an equal span.
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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quote:
quote:
Ironically, having just read this and seeing how my hand's positions are measured by the above "fittings", my current pitches and spans reflect the Bunetta philosophy almost exactly. It's taken me about 10 years of changes to get to this point of comfort and flexibility.
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien
I also used that method & determined my pitches are right on. The only variation is more reverse in both fingers because of stiff joints. The thumb is correct. Took me over 40 years to get my grip feeling this good with no release problems, blisters or soreness.
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Wayne
I am not sure that this method is correct. It is just another method to get us close. I never had many blisters, but had the start of "blood blisters" in the finger tips telling me something was not quite right. They're gone now. From 1985 to 2005 my grip span went from 5" & 5 1/8" to 4 3/4" in both.
I use some reverse in the fingers due to reduced flexibility, 1/4".
No, CLT. I still believe this is a pitch version of a standard grip, but if it works for you, "do it to it and squeeze it easy!"
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien
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I am not sure that this method is correct. It is just another method to get us close. I never had many blisters, but had the start of "blood blisters" in the finger tips telling me something was not quite right. They're gone now. From 1985 to 2005 my grip span went from 5" & 5 1/8" to 4 3/4" in both.
I use some reverse in the fingers due to reduced flexibility, 1/4".
No, CLT. I still believe this is a pitch version of a standard grip, but if it works for you, "do it to it and squeeze it easy!"
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien
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My span shortened from 4 3/4 to 4 1/2 & I added a lot of reverse in the fingers because no flexibility as well.
I agree with you about the CLT, that once the pitches & spans are established, you can then measure to drill using regular T grip style. The difference after that is in the way the face of the grips are aligned to match your pull line.
I even was able to break a 40 year old habit of needing tape in the front of the thumb hole. Now I just use a couple pieces in the back as needed.
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Wayne
FOS MEMBER
HARDCORE DIAMOND CUTTER
Tis the season "MERRY CHRISTMAS"
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Well,
These are not negative comments at this point just observations about this method.
It may be a tremendous method! I have not drilled to try ...and I only expect some minor changes...others using this method may have dramatically different results.
Differences with the Bill Taylor method:
1. Thumb pitch is NOT correlated to span(specifically says so in instructions).
It is based strictly on thumb flexibility in relation to the "heartline". ie you have a certain thumb pitch...regardless of span. Hmmmm?
2. Where Bill Taylor assumes a 0 (f/r) pitch in fingers(in most cases) and adjusts thumb pitch for span length while leaving fingers at 0 pitch this method assmumes your fixed thumb pitch and then states that "longer" spans(not clarified if this means stretched spans or longer(longer than what?) tend to use reverse in the fingers. To give an idea what longer is he illustrates in this book some spans around 4 1/2 and 4 5/8 and has reverse pitches in fingers of about 1/8 and 1/4.
3. On lateral pitches it appears that this method will tend to give less total side pitches than the Bill Taylor method and ALSO that the method has a 1/4 bias to the left from the Bill Taylor method. ie in the Bill Taylor method...Forearm test that point at ones middle finger are 1/8 lateral under palm(right for a righty). For this method that position usually means about 1/8 left! This is quite a difference. This method assumes 0 at in between the middle and ring finger. Taylor assumes 1/4 under palm. Big difference.
A refresher taken from the FAQ section of this website(I added thsi material I think). Here is Bill Taylor's lateral pitch test.
Table:
Index finger = 1/8 lateral away from palm
Between Index and middle = 0
Middle = 1/8 lateral under palm
Between middle and ring = 1/4 lateral under palm
Ring = 3/8 lateral under palm
Also in the notes of the Bunetta method is the point that little lateral pitch in any direction should typically be used. He does in some of the illustrations given shown show some 1/4 under palm lateral drillings.
4. Vague differences in span discussion. Though conceptually the same this method does not give the specificity that Bill Taylor's does on span length.
Bill says if hand is cupped on ball(thumb not in thumbhole) and middle is 5/16 longer spans are equal. Thsi method says if middle is longer then spans are the same. However in diagrams it shows one measuring a line from base of thumb to joints and one can see that one could accurately use a small steel ruler and see difference and in accurately assess factor one's offset of thumb to fingers would make in span.
5. Difference if pitch between different span lengths. I have not ssen this before and found fascinating. Discussion basically says that if a finger has a longer span...the finger that is longer should have less pitch than the shorter finger.(when he says pitch he always means forward) to capture the same feel at release between both fingers. He goes on to show in his pitch diagrams that if a guy has 4 5/8(is this a LONGER SPAN..as illustrated above) he illustrates 1/4 reverse and the finger with 4 1/2 a reverse of 1/8. A 1 to 1 reduction for increases in span. Nowhere before have I seen this(however I now use an equal span).
6. Where Bill Taylor always specifies a relaxed fingertip span(front lip of finger hole or insert to a line 1/2 the distance between last two joints of bowling fingers). The Bunetta method gives a thorough illustration and brief discussion of the differenced between releaxed fingertip(about a pencil under palm) and the stretched...palm almost touching the ball ...complete distance.
Anyway...I have done no testing of this method and am not a great test subject for many of the concepts. However if I did use them it would change slightly my forward reverse to more forward...would probably add some reverse to my fingers and would also lessen my left lateral to near 0.
I am going to do a bit of testing with a non curren lineup ball and will get back with any results or impressions.
However...I posted this here to see if we had some drillers who have been around for long enough to have any impressions of thsi method versus the Bill Taylor method. Or any other method. Or any comments....Is this method just an old time outdated method???
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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Long time drilling gurus...
Taylor...Bunetta....Taylor....Bunetta....Taylor ....Bunnetta.
What are your opinions?
Remember Bunetta????
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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In the 60's and 70's Bill worked for a bowling supply company out of Chicago, he used to do a lot of guest appearance's in the midwest. Maybe some one from that area could help you.
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My main question is about the heartline thing. Say by the heartline method I should have 0 pitch. So what happens if I take my span from 4 1/4 to 4 3/4? (just making up numbers) Am I really just supposed to leave the pitch how it is? That seems awkward. I don't know, I think I'll stick with "crazy" old Bill Taylor's method of changing thumb pitch with span...
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- Andy
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From what I saw in the illustrations he gave...for example.
It seemed the thumb was always left the same....Specifically stated that moving thumb with spans was not done. but also stated longer spans required more reverse in fingers. Illustrated a person with a relaxed span of about 4 1/2 goting to 4 5/8 and adding 1/8 more reverse to fingers.
This makes sense in a way....something has got to give to get one out of the ball. If not thumb...then fingers.
Any others know this metod.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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This topic definately has me thinking of tinkering with my pitches again. I always seem to have trouble getting out of my thumb cleanly on a regular basis. Sometimes I will hang in the thumb while other times I lose the ball early off my thumb resulting in a wide shot with no hit on it. I found an old drill sheet in my bag that should be close to what I'm currently using, I may have changed it slightly but I know I am still under palm with reverse.
Here are what my stats are: Rt. Handed
Middle finger span 5 1/8
Ring finger span 5 1/4
Thumb 5/8 reverse, 1/8 under palm
Using the tests from this method, my thumb is most comfortable when it points between my index finger and middle finger suggesting either 0 or even slightly away from palm. 5/8 seems like a lot of reverse according to this method but I do have a long span. I also have been feeling stiffness/pain in my middle finger at the first joint, maybe reverse needed in fingers.
Here's what I'm thinking of trying, adding a little reverse in the fingers and changing to 0 or 1/8 away on the thumb. What will the change in thumb pitch do to my release? Should I also change the amount of reverse? Any suggestions?
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You haven't described the "heartline" test which would give you the forward reverse for your thumb from this method.
However a 5/8 reverse by Bill taylor with your span is very common and slightly forward of the tables.
I have not even tested this method.
I still await replys from Long term gurus on this method.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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LL, sorry forgot to put in that test. I can comfortably get to about 1/4 inch from the heartline, but if I strain I can get all the way there. Also, my spans are actually currently a little on the relaxed side and my fingers have 0 reverse. I feel that my release problems are due to having the thumb a little loose in order to be able to get out of the ball which is causing me to squeeze a little. I also have the ball several inches away from my slide foot at release (I wish I could get it in closer).
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Okay...I am NOT an expert in this system as I pluggin on a few good but unused balls.
Sounds like if you want to try this system(I am not using these balls in league or competition).
1/8 reverse on thumb..uncertain on lateral(see below). Add say 3/16 reverse on fingers. the longer one make 1/4 reverse.
Slightly more than shorter one.
As to lateral palm pitch. One is to point fingers to middle finger...in between middle and ring...and ring....one test. Another test pick up pencil from table with middle ring and thumb. Where does thumb point. Another lateral test...grab forearm underneath where does thumb point.
All tests should be in near agreement. Nowhere does he talk about testing to index finger with the touching test.
Anyway...ring is about 1/8 lateral palm to slightly more. split is 0 and middle is maybe 1/8 left for a righty.
Be very careful... Going forward in thumb can hang one up but good if you don't go slow.
I'll report back on my testing!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 12/22/2005 11:31 AM
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Gurus...your comments on this older method?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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Maybe I don't understand the method fully, but if the flexibility of your thumb is the only test for forward/reverse, it seems almost impossible to ever have much forward on the thumb. I don't like any system that prohibitive. Unless someone has a heartline a lot different than mine, how could they get their thumb to say...3/8" below the heartline? The best I can do is 1/2" above on the heartline test and I bowl with 1/4" forward, so go figure.
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www.buildanarsenal.com
Edited on 12/22/2005 9:41 PM
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I test out at 1/8 forward in relation to heartline...sort of flexible in a way.
But not flexible back...as in 105 degrees standard push back test.
I'm sort of intrigued with the reverse in fingers on "longer spans".
And intrigued by more reverse in longer span finger to give same feel!
Hmmmmm? As I have 3 balls in the plugging process to examine.
I also test out a little different for lateral under than with coke bottle.
Or should I say results are a touch different!
Gurus who know and used this system in the past???
WEll?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS funny I say this because many people believe they have "A" thumb pitch and it is not determined by span. Just like this method but then he seems to adjust finger pitches for span.
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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Preliminary results so far appear real good!
I have a flexible thumb(in relation to the heartline!).
So ignoring span and pitch tables I go 1/8 forward.
However I've tried that before and always sort of hung up in the ball.
So following the Bunetta stuff above I added 1/8 reverse(already have powerlift inserts.) Well all of a sudden my hand looks good on the ball. Not all cramped up like it has since I've shortened my span. Less space under palm!
In addition over the years I've been measured to have ring a little longer and middle a little longer...so on the middle finger longer I add reverse just to the middle finger. (I had always noticed I got a ton of hit on the middle finger if I went wide with 0 forward reverse).
Well just as advertised by Bunneta...in equal span ball which is a 4 19/32 span(4 5/8 basically). I all of a sudden had the thumb release time I wanted.
I also had a 1/8 forward thumb pitch ball with 0 F/R on fingers. Well the fingers gave quite a jolt and pulled thumb out before I wanted it seemed. The combination of more forward and a touch of reverse was sweet!
In addition for the 2nd ball tested...a ball with the middle finger longer than ring and reverse added to that I was impressed with the more equal feeling between different length spans.
I almost in the balls above are getting the similar feel that I had when I had a very stretched span without the thumb damage or shoulder pain.
More testing and results coming.
Upcoming longer ring finger span with reverse added!
(note I really probably need a virtually even span).
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS ...I must conclude from several others ballreviewers and friends...I'm not convinced this is completely a comprehensive system!
ie Have a friend similar to Iron horse above. He has a VERY stiff thumb in relation to the heartline! He would test 1/2 reverse. He also has short stubby fingers and claims he is under 4 inches in span! He went to 1/8 forward yesterday and shot 767! LAst week he was 0 reverse and was bouncing a couple and could only manage 764! (sort of joking there but true). The point being he is a fantastic bowler with a very short span and a very stiff thumb. So this system does not seem to relate to him!
PPS so what is intriguing me is how the slight finger reverse coordinated with more forward is allowing me to stay in ball better and longer than with same forward in thumb and maybe too much forward in fingers(pulling thumb out?)
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
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-Reading through the older posts - I see that I have arrived at the fit described by Bunetta - after experimenting with perhaps 75 different drills.
Great post.
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OnlyBowling
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P.S. Bill is alive and well living in CA. I have bowled on teams with his nephew back here in the D for years.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile