BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: lefty50 on September 01, 2017, 08:06:43 AM
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Working with my PSO, who has been a big help, but I'd like to incorporate feedback from the group please.
I have a 0/0 thumb slug with very little bevel that, although fairly comfortable, tends to have me losing the ball early once in a while no matter what I do. As an experiment, I've drilled another slug using 1/8 forward pitch. Now I've started to hang up in the ball on about 70% of shots. Pulling my fingers out a little helps. The ball definitely feels more solid on my hand, but it's almost like I've gone too far with the small 1/8 adjustment. I know that the 1/8 forward makes my span seem longer.
I already tried increasing bevel slightly on the 1/8 forward. It's not bad, definitely in the right direction, but not as solid on my hand and once in a while slips. I want to keep that solid feeling since it leads to a relaxed release.
What's the next thing to try?
- Make a change on lateral pitch instead to hold the ball longer
- Go back to zero and reduce the bevel
- Adjust span down to accommodate the 1/8 pitch
What have you found to be most successful in your testing?
As always, thanks in advance
L50
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don't use the thumb but a friend has really experimented with forward pitches in his thumb and he found out that he needed to offset the forward in the thumb with reverse in the fingers.
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Has your PSO verified that your span is in the correct range?
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How many games did you bowl with the 1/8th forward before adding in bevel? Myself, I've done many experiments with changing forward pitch, and sometimes the original impression isn't best to go off of. If didn't bowl much with it, it may be best to just give it some time.
Adding bevel will make come out easier. A really sharp bevel will cause hang. What may have been doing originally was compensating for too little forward by using a very sharp bevel. It may be that more even more forward pitch is needed, with the added bevel. But between bevel, pitch, and then span changes there are a lot of tweaks that can be made.
The degree of bevel can have a profound effect on feel and is rarely talked about. Sharp bevel causes thumb to hang, but it's sort of like a fake way of keeping thumb in ball longer. More forward pitch secures the base of thumb in hole. Doing it with bevel is similar, but it's more like getting a sharp edge to stick, and it will be hard to have consistent feel from session to session or different seasons/time day doing it that way.
Keep in mind what many people who start to add forward pitch learn is the longer they use it, the more forward pitch they feel comfortable with.
Myself have used 0 forward up to where am now at 1/2 forward. I've tried every pitch in between. I'm not a PSO, just some guy who has done a lot of experimenting. I have found for myself that span changes to compensate for pitch is very, very overrated. Yet, if you add in 1/4 forward, maybe need to alter span slightly, but any needed span change from only 1/8 forward pitch would by my guess be minuscule.
In your case reducing span will cause ball to come out faster. Since you want the ball to stay on thumb longer, then if a hypothetical span change is called for, it would be more span.
Adding reverse in the fingers, in this case, would cause ball to fall off of fingers, so then it's slipping out of thumb, and coming off fingers faster - not good. Yes, it is possible for adding forward pitch to cause my tension in fingers (not my experience at all, but others do find it happens).
So conclusion from random guy on Internet who has tried dozens of these changes -
If it was slipping originally probably needed more forward pitch and you had been compensating by using very sharp bevel. Once added forward pitch had trouble matching bevel to the pitch. Added in some bevel and started to slip again.
What I would do if me. Add more forward pitch and keep moderate bevel.
for anyone else reading, what causes need for more forward pitch:
-short span
-short thumb
-dry/slippery thumb
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Thanks for the input. Interesting that no one has mentioned lateral yet... To answer questions...
PSO really leans toward feel rather than exact span range per se, but we have discussed and both agree it's within the normally prescribed 1/8 range standard.
I had 6 games over 2 sessions before playing with the bevel. I've also used 4 different balls with same results (PSO's good at hitting the lines) :)
I appreciate the comment on sharp bevel. In retrospect, I absolutely was using sharp bevel as you mentioned, to help hold the ball. That's why I started experimenting.
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Is your ball swing and approach in perfect sync?? Are you holding the ball correctly? The easy, but sometimes wrong approach is to fool with grip.
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Do you "knuckle" your thumb? That's bending it at the knuckle and gripping with the tip. If so, that's the first thing to correct. Any pressure needed should be applied with the base of the thumb. -- JohnP
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John, I do that a bit, yes. It's something I'm working on. For purposes of this discussion though, we can assume that all releases are done as cleanly as I am currently capable of doing, which is admittedly imperfect.
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I got caught up in the "shorter span / forward pitch" frenzy a few years ago and unfortunately went overboard. Sometimes it felt great, but too often like you described, I was losing the ball early -- even at 1/8" forward. At 1/4" forward I would hang sometimes. It was very frustrating.
About 6 months ago I had my grip completely reevaluated. The PSO recommended going to a longer span with 1/8" reverse in the thumb. He also adjusted the pitches in my fingers with more reverse. My initial thought was "no way!!", but I had him drill up a ball to try it out.
I'm with that new grip and couldn't be happier. It was counter intuitive to what I though was "right", but it's the best I've ever felt. I have no squeezing, and my release is as consistent as it's ever been.
Our symptoms were similar (that's why your post caught my attention), but of course this may not apply to you. Still, I would look more to span as being the culprit in the overall scheme of things. I've never been able to pitch my way out of an incorrect span.
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To continue JohnP's reply. Probably the most common problem bowlers have is holding onto the ball. There are myriad reasons why it is difficult to hold onto the ball and release consistently. Until they are addressed, attacking the grip is of no use. A certain amount of "control" can be attained by quick fixes, but if you don't have all the variables kind of accounted for, you're not fixing anything. If you and your PSO are fixated on just your grip, good luck.
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Span dictates pitch/angle
Adjusting the pitch on a bad span is a bandaid
If you have to back your fingers out to have it feel correct is improper technique
Create proper span and adjust angles accordingly and also make sure swing is not to steep
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It is impossible to properly hold onto the ball without a correct grip. Trying to fix other things when the grip is wrong is beyond pointless.
You can not out bowl a poor grip.
It is impossible.
It's also not difficult to find guys who drop the ball every show and just know they need forward pitch.
I had like 10 guy years ago insist that I must have reverse pitch.
Then quit bowling for years.
When got back into it, somehow ended up driving like 3 hours to see Mike Luongo, he took one glance at my hand and told me I needed at least 1/4 forward pitch.
In this case, if one thing consistently happens with zero pitch and another with 1/8 forward, then it's a grip issue.
Can't repeat enough - you can not out-bowl a poor grip.
Nor can you out-coach a poor grip.
Obviously as someone improves and learns what works, they can modify and perfect their grip, but you can't get anywhere if the grip does not allow you to hold onto the ball.
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You CAN outbowl a bad grip it happens ALL the time...starting with Mark Roth...go out on tour you see it ALL the time...
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Btw there is NO perfect grip or angle for gripping...and the bowler should not be gripping the ball...it is supported by the wrist and having it properly fit to your hand that keeps it on the bowlers hand...gravity & momentum is what releases it...not the bowler needing to 'get' it off their hand
Two things effect the creation of the swing...the amount of muscle in the arm & grip which causes its redirection...and the amount of pull effecting the timing
You can have a 'perfect' grip and terrible timing and you can have a terrible grip that creates the timing but everyone is individual primarily due to strength
A steeper swing plane may require more 'help' from the gripping angles in supporting the ball and a flatter swing plane may require less
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Span dictates pitch/angle
Rico -- Would you be OK with changing this to "spans plus joint flexibilities dictate pitch/angle"? -- JohnP
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Span dictates the initial angle...flexibility grip strength and length of digits would be next plus length of arm
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Ric can you go into a little more detail about the length of arm pertaining to grip . I've never heard that being a factor
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It's a lever...the longer the lever the easier it is to support
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Thank you
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Thanks for the input.
So given all the input you've received, what are you going to try to adjust next??
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Darn Rico, you're line of reasoning is almost as crazy as Mo's. Length of the arm just generally mean longer fingers which are better to hold the ball than short fingers, not some cockeyed theory of "leverage". But, I do really enjoy the more "advanced" theories you self appointed guru's put out, just sorry for the folks who believe in all of them.
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And you are?
Thank you but if your only defense is an insult it proves my point...do you understand levers and how they work? Do you understand support and how that works...
I'm NOT a self-appointed anything BUT there are numerous individuals that understand what I 'teach'...but I guess it's much satisfying hiding behind a screen name...sorry no one has appointed you anything...
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How do you factor Arm length into your grip, span/pitches measurements?
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Thanks for the question Steven. Getting this one back on topic, I've actually gone twice more since the original post, bowled 6 games with six balls, and revisited the PSO. Found a few things...
- Added bevel - first change. It helped, but still too high percentage of hangups
- Remeasured span after PSO noticed fingernail almost touching the back. Span is 1/16-3/32 longer with the current oval slug. I brought a ball with a shorter span (as frequently mentioned, I've been experimenting, so had one available). Big improvement.We're quick plugging a ball that hangs, coming back 1/8 on ring and 1/16 on middle.
- Actually found 2 balls that were not locking consistently, sometimes 10-15 degrees off, in other words, hard to get that final lock. That of course messes with the oval angle, which of course I didn't notice with round, but it matters more now.
- And finally, found that things get better as I get to game 3. My thumb shrinks as I bowl. So expanded the sides just a little.
So, bevel accomplished, side expansion accomplished, lock is now consistent, and the next thing is pitch change, which I'm confident will be the final solution once I get the change right. We chose to go shorter instead of increasing reverse, since I changed to a bit less reverse 6 months ago with great results.
It needs to be said at this point that all the experimenting has been great. If I may do a small FIGJAM, the changes have resulted in my first 800 at age 62, and I had back to back 299's (robbed on one, my fault on the other) during that set with numerous 230+ since then. Bowling better than ever in my life. So why try oval? Because the thumb is so #$%^ flat that I've got 7-8 pieces of tape and it's very uncomfortable. When I release well, I'm gold, but I'm confident the oval will be a more consistent and comfortable release, as I've already proven to myself.
Good progress, almost done.
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Getting back on topic...that's funny as we were answering the questions but I guess this is your private forum...
If you're needing bevel to release then it is not the proper span...
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Hello Rico. Always a pleasure to have you trolling my threads. Please read back. You'll see you started answering other questions, not mine.... Fair topic, but not this thread, brother. As I mentioned, bevel helped (As the PSO also mentioned since I use so little normally). It's a fair adjustment, but it isn't the answer, we agree on that.
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I answer questions...sorry I don't follow your rules and honestly don't care that you don't care for it...trolling your threads...you're funny...sad but funny...
Tried to actually offer YOU some advice but you're so thick headed you glam over it...if you could actually see you may learn something but choose not too
oh well onto bigger and better things...ballreviews NOT lefty50reviews...
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Btw what's the title of YOUR post? Change span or pitch correct? Fairly certain if YOU read back I answered those questions
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Sigh....
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Hmm, some musings...
Ric is no troll. This is akin to having Einstein show up at a local dive bar and have the town drunks call him a smartass. We have several very knowledgeable people on these boards, but if they don't tell you what you want to hear, they're a troll. Go figure.
Second, a man I respect and got to share time with also believed that all sorts of body measurements (arm length included) factored into ball fitting. In fact, he even wrote a book "How to fit and drill a bowling ball". But I bet Bill Taylor is just an old fool.
Here, let me chime in. Unless the webbing on your thumb is all sorts of jacked up, proper span and pitches will need minimal bevel. Drillers use bevel for 2 reasons. 1, to provide people who squeeze and muscle the ball more comfortable so they don't come back saying "Owie, it hurts when I do this" and 2, to mask span and pitches inaccuracies.
That's it.
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He doesn't wish for truth...only his truth
I've written two books but that means nothing cause I make sh*t up ask the other guy...
So are you appointing me Einstein? Just checking in case I get accused...
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He doesn't wish for truth...only his truth
I've written two books but that means nothing cause I make sh*t up ask the other guy...
So are you appointing me Einstein? Just checking in case I get accused...
I was just trying to show levels of knowledge, but whatever works...
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It was said pretty much to tongue in cheek
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It was said pretty much to tongue in cheek
I know, Einstein.
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Doom, give it a rest. I open a topic, talk about threes options, and it degrades into this. Good example of why I don't post much here. Again, feel free to put me on your ignore list... Please. The rest of us are having a good conversation... Go away brother.
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Doom don't forget this is lefty50reviews...
Can't stand when anyone goes against him...
Lefty you may choose giving it a rest...quit trolling our conversation
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Too bad Rico and Doom are correct.....for lefty
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Doom, give it a rest. I open a topic, talk about threes options, and it degrades into this. Good example of why I don't post much here. Again, feel free to put me on your ignore list... Please. The rest of us are having a good conversation... Go away brother.
Give what a rest? You ask for advice, ask a question, people with decades of experience in the industry give it to you for free, it's not what you want to hear, so you go searching for other answers.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ignorance
If you need an excessive amount of bevel, your span isn't as right as it could be. It's a fact. Do you want "Close enough, here's a gold star for trying, Mr Pro shop guy"? Or do you want it to be proper? Is it too much work to go thru the trial and error you and your PSO may need to.go thru to get there, or is it too frustrating to figure out which direction to go?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1. The people who knows nothing and knows it.
2. The people who know what they're talking about and know it.
3. The people who know just enough to be dangerous, but really just regurgitate what they've heard.
Which are you? (Not lefty in particular, just anyone reading this)
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my two cents...
longer armed people tend to have longer fingers than those with shorter ones. Longer armed ppl do have advantage in throwing leverage vs. shorter ones. shorter armed bowlers require more or larger swing arch to maximize potential. Better utilization of mechanics which are found in elite level short armed athletes.
Those power lifting athletes that have longer arms have an advantage due to less ROM from the start of the lift to the finish vs. the shorter armed power lifter who have longer ROM (range of Motion) which requires more effort at the start of the lift. Hip and spine angles are very different between these two types of power lifters.
Medically, we can exam a hand of a child with one x-ray and doctors can tell if this person will basically be developing physically slower than their peers. In some cases, the child growth is completed prematurely - short stature.