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Author Topic: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)  (Read 5438 times)

Re-Evolution

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Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« on: October 27, 2004, 02:32:30 AM »
Many say that to find your PAP you should measure over 6 3/4" from your track.
Well by my thinking this is incorrect unless you have a 13 1/2" track since PAP is defined as the equidistant point from all points of your track. With that in mind lets say you have a 10 1/2" track wouldn't you then measure over 7 3/4" since it is 15 1/2" from track to track at a point 180° around your track measuring around the positive side. Other ways to find your PAP more accurately would be to use the Ball Spinner technique or find it based on your NAP.

Here is a pic that I made that explains my thoughts.

http://get.filehosting.org/?ks6895

All the tracks that are represented in the pic have the same NAP so they would have the same PAP, but if you used the 6 3/4" method they would have very different PAPs.

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STORMIN1



Edited on 10/28/2004 1:09 AM

 

Burak Natal

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2004, 01:14:01 PM »
Brian Longo, may The God bless you! Thanks..

cgilyeat, those are basic explanations regarding ball dynamics.
PAP, imbalance and axis migration, factors effect hook potential of a bowling ball etc..Very simple explanations I should say..

Burak
Regards,

Natal
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cgilyeat

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2004, 01:38:22 PM »
Burak,

I thought that's what the text was, but it would have nice to read your descriptions of the diagrams.

Burak Natal

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 02:00:19 PM »
cgilyeat, in order not to thread jack, message sent..
Regards,

Natal
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Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2004, 03:41:42 PM »
quote:
If you want to try and push your theories about how PAP is a bunk place on a ball, or that it's an arbitrary point, be my guest.  You have a lot of printed documentation, hours of engineers observing ball motion, and a lot of well-known ball drillers who believe that the PAP is a viable (and crucial) point on a ball.  If you want to refute all of that, go ahead.


I am not saying that PAP is a bunk place because it is one of the most important factors in laying a ball out that is why we all make layouts based off of it. I am saying that if you are not a full roller that your PAP will not be 6.75" from your PAP.
Picture this a bowler has a PURE spinner release, the track would be on his NAP and NAP is 180° from PAP. So his PAP is 13.5" from his track pointed straight up in the air. Right?

quote:

But before you make another post, I want you to do a simple experiment - take a piece of tape (about 3/4" square), stick it about 3 1/2" to the right (or left if you're left-handed) from your ring finger and up from your grip midline about 1" (judging by your profile, that's about where your PAP is).  Keep moving it until it looks like a dot for the first couple of revs.  Hint:  Use a spare ball for a more accurate measurement.


I have used the tape method before with a spare ball and the tape was not on my measured PAP when it appeared to be stationary. It was off an inch.
I verified this with the ball spinner technique of finding your PAP.

quote:

After you have succeeded in making it look like a dot for the first couple of revs, take a piece of string, or if your pro shop guy will let you, use a quarter scale, and take the measurement from the middle of the tape through your grip center and to your first flare ring.  If that measurement isn't in the neighborhood of 6 3/4" (give or take 1/2" to 3/4" for higher-flaring balls), I'll eat my shoes.



Would you like ketchup or mustard with those shoes.



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STORMIN1


Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2004, 04:40:34 PM »
Brian,
Would you like to make a wager on who is correct?

By your own admission I am correct. It doesn't matter if you are a Full roller, 3/4 roller, semi roller, low tracker, spinner, etc. The axis is the imaginary line that connects the PAP and NAP. You show me any round or cylinderical object that doesn't rotate around it's center and I will eat your shoes. That does not include cams/eccentrics.

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STORMIN1


Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2004, 04:45:26 PM »
quote:
And by the way genius, just so you know, a bowler with a 4 1/2" horizontal axis measurement couldn't possibly have an axis tilt of 6 to 7 degrees.  That only proves to me and everyone else how full of it you actually are.  You wouldn't know axis tilt if it crawled up your pants leg.



Would you like to measure my track diameter?
For every 1" less then 13.5" that your track diameter is = 6 2/3° of axis tilt.
I may not be the smartest guy in the world but I can read a tape measure.
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STORMIN1


Burak Natal

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2004, 05:35:13 PM »
Stormin1, I would like to ask you a question regarding your track diameter.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you say you have 6-7 degrees of axis tilt, your track diameter should be something like 12.5
13.5 - 12.5 = 1 and 1 * 6-2/3 which is approximately 6-7 degrees of tilt.
Correct?

If this is the case, 12.5 track diameter makes you a pretty high tracker.
I've never seen a high tracker with 4-5/8 horizontal axis measurement.
 

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Natal
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Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2004, 07:16:58 PM »
I know those are strange PAP coordinates for a person that has a 12.5" track but that is where it is. The only reason that I don't roll over the fingers or thumb is because my track is extremely tilted. About 1/4" from thumb and 1 3/4" from my middle finger. When I first learned the track diameter technique for finding tilt I had a hard time believing that it was that low because of the fact that my PAP is up 1" and I thought that the height of your PAP was a direct coralation to tilt. KOTM explained to me that he has seen where a person had a 13.5" track but their PAP was not over 6.75" from grip center because even though they had a full roller track diameter their track was where a typical semi-roller's track would be.
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STORMIN1



Edited on 10/28/2004 7:19 PM

Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2004, 10:08:09 PM »
Brian Longo,

Since you are being too pig headed to use LOGIC and acting like a computer that can only know what it was taught, I will only try to get you to see the light one last time. With another quote, note that NOWHERE in this article is 6.75" mentioned.

quote:

Brian Pursel:Ebonite Product Manager

I have had numerous questions regarding the positive axis point and its relation to the release and to ball drilling. Most all drilling instructions denote a certain pin distance from the positive axis point to achieve a desired reaction. Without knowing a bowler“s positive axis point, the driller cannot predict a ball reaction with certainty, even with general knowledge of the physical attributes of the bowler (axis tilt, axis rotation, rev rate, and ball speed) and the lane conditions.

Every ball released rotates on an axis. It is a direct result of the release and swing plane of the bowler. The axis is an imaginary line through the center of the ball, extending from one side to the other. The two points on the ball“s surface through which this line extends are the negative axis point (NAP) and the positive axis point (PAP). For righthanded bowlers, this would be to the right side of the grip. For lefthanded bowlers, the PAP would be on the left side of the grip. The PAP is on the side of the ball opposite the ball track. The ball track for righthanders would be to the left of the fingers, the ball track for the lefthanders would be to the right of the fingers. The exception to this would be the backup bowler (reverse hook).

Righthanded hook bowlers release the ball with a wrist rotation in a counter-clockwise direction. The fingers exit the ball anywhere from 5:30 (behind the ball) to 3:00 (on the right side of the ball). This causes the ball to revolve from right to left, creating a hook from right to left. A righthander who throws a reverse hook rotates the hand in the opposite direction, turning clockwise. The fingers exit the ball between 6:30 and 9:00, causing a left to right rotation. This will result in a left to right hook. The ball track (where the ball comes into contact with the lane surface) will be to the right of the grip. This will make the reverse hook bowler“s ball track look similar to the lefthanded bowler“s ball track. The PAP of the righthanded reverse hook bowler will on the left side of the grip, the lefthanded reverse hook bowler“s PAP on the right side of the grip.

It is easiest to locate the PAP from a lower flaring ball. I would suggest a spare ball. Clean off the ball with a towel, removing all of the oil rings. Find the part of the lane where there is oil (usually around the 4th arrow) and throw the ball down the lane with your normal release. When the ball comes back, there will be an oil ring. This is your ball track. Trace the ball track with a wax pencil to make it easier to locate. Place the ball in a ball cup (ashtray, etc.) with the ball track side of the ball down. The PAP will be the point that is equidistant from each point of the ball track. Use a tape measure from several points of the ball track until you find the spot that is the same distance from all points of the ball track. This point will be your PAP.

The easiest method of finding your PAP is to visit your local Striking Effects Pro Shop, or other IBPSIA certified pro shops. They will own a ball spinner. Using the spinner, place the ball with the track side down. Turn on the spinner and look for the ball track outline to rotate smoothly, not wavering up and down. If it is wavering, stop the ball spinner and readjust the way the ball is sitting in the spinner cup. Once the ball track is constant, press a wax pencil at the top of the rotating ball. It will center up onto a point. This center is the PAP. To verify the location of the PAP, place a piece of thumb tape on this spot and throw a shot down the lane. This spot should stay still throughout the first 25 feet. For low flare balls (those with weaker core designs), this spot will stay still longer. Higher flare balls (those with stronger core designs) will cause the tape to begin wobbling sooner. This is why I suggest to use lower flaring balls (ideally your spare ball) to locate your PAP.

To measure the location of the PAP, you will need to be able to find the center of your span. This will be half the distance from the front edge of the thumbhole to the front edge of the fingers. From the center of span, draw a perpendicular line (lets call this line ”Horizontal‘) to the same side of the ball that the PAP is located on. More times than not, this line will not intersect directly with the PAP. You will need to draw a line vertically up (or down in some cases) to the PAP. This ”Vertical‘ line is perpendicular to the ”Horizontal‘ line. This will give you two measurements, horizontal and vertical, to accurately locate the PAP from the center of your span.


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STORMIN1


Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2004, 10:24:55 PM »
One last thing you said
"If ignorance is bliss, you gotta be the happiest person on this planet!"
Comments like that are uncalled for even though I did't agree with you I never made any negative comments towards you.
If I had not given any examples or information to validate what I was saying you could say I was being ignorant, but I did back up my statements.


ig·no·rance    
n.
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

I am far from ignorant, uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
Considering I have an IQ of 147, finished college with a GPA of 3.95 and am part of the national honor society.


 

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STORMIN1


Re-Evolution

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Re: Do you agree? (Edit: some agree)
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2004, 10:28:21 AM »
King of the Mill,
 Thank you for your input.
I never had really strong thoughts on my "leverage" analysis and realized that is was not possible late last night. Suddenly a light went of in my head and I realised that core angle is actually based off of the imaginary line between NAP and PAP even though we set it off of PAP.

I KNEW I was correct about TILT and PAP. That is why I got in the "pissing match"
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STORMIN1