Author Topic: PAP Question (Read 4776 times)

Fluff E Bunnie · « **on:** September 26, 2007, 12:09:30 AM »

What does the up and down from the grip center mean in relation to your PAP. For example if someone had a PAP that was 4 and 3/4" over and a bit up or down. What would the up and down mean and how would that affect things?

azguy · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:13:33 AM »

Up or down is from center grip, as in 4 in over (right of center grip for a righty) and 1/2 in up, from that point. If drawn on the ball it would look like an "L" down on it's back, if you follow the meaning.
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
www.rlbowlerspro.com

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:20:44 AM »

I guess I am having a hard time picturing what that means in terms of ball reaction. That would turn the track more left or right?

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:35:02 AM »

Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding of what happens if your PAP is up:

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/8718/papupuw3.jpg

The track will be centered at the opposite side of your PAP, so a PAP up means your track will be down.

Is that correct?

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:39:04 AM »

The PAP confuses me

Grayson · « **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:39:15 AM »

Dan I think you're right and I see it the same way... a PAP up means the track will be closer to the thumb than to the finger holes... but what does it matter except to avoid the ball rolling over the holes?
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"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I aks what about the genius?" - Grayson

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azguy · « **Reply #6 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:45:54 AM »

Most paps are down, some are not. I only used the "up" because it's easier to describe using the "L" on it's back. One can find your PAP without a spinner but it's not as accurate. In todays balls, some of them anyway, without knowing your PAP can cause a ball to be an expensive spare ball.
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
www.rlbowlerspro.com

scotts33 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:51:33 AM »

Yep up means you are tracking closer to thumb vs. fingers.
Down means closer to fingers or inverted.

Normally the shorter the PAP 4 to 4 1/2" the lower your track more spinnerish more length but more hard reaction off the spot.
The more over your PAP 5" and more the higher the track and more forward roll player more even reaction not as hard off the spot easier to control especially on tougher flatter patterns.

Of course laying out balls and slecting the right ball to help with these types of techniques helps.

These are generalizations not everybody fits the mold but it's a place to start.
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Scott

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2007, 08:57:34 AM »

From what I understand, there are two axis points where your ball rotates--one on the track side of the ball, the other on the opposite side. These line up in a straight line through the center of your track.

The Positive Axis Point used for laying out a ball is just the point on the opposite side of your track where the ball rotates. So, if you had a line going through the ball through the center of your track so that it stayed in place when the ball was rotating down the lane, the PAP is where that line would end on the opposite side of your ball.

I have a moderate to high track that is just slightly closer to my thumb than my fingers, so my PAP is about 1/4" above my grip center and about 5 3/16" right of the grip center. You can tell from this I have quite a bit of forward roll rather than a spinner release.

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:12:35 AM »

What kind of considerations would need to be taken in terms of layout? For example, I read a thread earlier this week saying lower tracks would do better with pin under drillings etc. That logic made sense to me.

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:27:09 AM »

The lower your track, the longer the ball is going to go in general since it is spinning sideways rather than rolling forward, to speak in very generalized terms. So, you need the ball to start up earlier to counter the spinning which adds length. However, I have more forward roll, so my ball wants to come up earlier and have a less angular breakpoint. Therefore, I need some length from a higher pin drilling in general to go along with a little midlane reaction so I can get a consistent but strong read to improve my carry.

JohnP · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:40:36 AM »

A positive vertical PAP component means the track is closer to the grip centerline at the thumb hole than it is at the finger holes. Negative is the opposite. The PAP location is important when laying out a ball since the distance between the PAP and the pin determines the percentage of the potential flare that is actually used. Other than that, by itself it tells you very little about the roll on your ball. It tells you nothing about axis tilt, which is determined by the track diameter and it tells you nothing about axis rotation. It tells you nothing about speed or revs. Tilt, rotation, speed and revs are what most affect the length and backend of the ball. Let your driller and coach worry about your PAP and you worry about accuracy and repeating shots. -- JohnP

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:59:34 AM »

quote:
The PAP location is important when laying out a ball since the distance between the PAP and the pin determines the percentage of the potential flare that is actually used. Other than that, by itself it tells you very little about the roll on your ball. It tells you nothing about axis tilt, which is determined by the track diameter and it tells you nothing about axis rotation. It tells you nothing about speed or revs. Tilt, rotation, speed and revs are what most affect the length and backend of the ball. Let your driller and coach worry about your PAP and you worry about accuracy and repeating shots. -- JohnP

Exactly. Hence my use of the phrase "to speak in very generalized terms" -- for most bowlers with a "standard" or "average" type of release, their axis tilt and rotation fall in line with what I mentioned before. There are, however, definite exceptions, which is why there are ways to calculate those other variables!

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2007, 12:28:18 PM »

quote:
A positive vertical PAP component means the track is closer to the grip centerline at the thumb hole than it is at the finger holes. Negative is the opposite. The PAP location is important when laying out a ball since the distance between the PAP and the pin determines the percentage of the potential flare that is actually used. Other than that, by itself it tells you very little about the roll on your ball. It tells you nothing about axis tilt, which is determined by the track diameter and it tells you nothing about axis rotation. It tells you nothing about speed or revs. Tilt, rotation, speed and revs are what most affect the length and backend of the ball. Let your driller and coach worry about your PAP and you worry about accuracy and repeating shots. -- JohnP

That is pretty helpful! The driller was telling me it all about the distance to your individual PAP and that was the main thing.

I just see so much talk about the PAP and different layouts on here that I would like to know more to understand what everyone is talking about.

Author Topic: PAP Question (Read 4776 times)

Fluff E Bunnie

PAP Question

azguy

Re: PAP Question

Fluff E Bunnie

Re: PAP Question

Dan Belcher

Re: PAP Question

Fluff E Bunnie

Re: PAP Question

Grayson

Re: PAP Question

azguy

Re: PAP Question

scotts33

Re: PAP Question

Dan Belcher

Re: PAP Question

Fluff E Bunnie

Re: PAP Question

Dan Belcher

Re: PAP Question

JohnP

Re: PAP Question

Dan Belcher

Re: PAP Question

Fluff E Bunnie

Re: PAP Question