Author Topic: Drilling into the pin (Read 5799 times)

thegame · « **on:** July 08, 2009, 01:50:15 PM »

I was looking at a couple of different layouts for my Raw Hammer Burn, and with the pin being at about 2 inches, I was worried if I put the pin above the fingers it may require a weight hole, and I wanted the length and flip reaction I had been hearing about, so I didn't want to put the pin below the fingers. I decided to drill out the pin completely in the ring finger, and placed the CG almost in the middle of the grip. The ball has great length, but the backend isn't anywhere near what I have been hearing from others who have thrown it. There is definitely a strong move, but more of a jump to the left when playing straighter, not really a change of direction/get around the corner flip. I'm wondering if drilling the pin out tames down the reaction a bit, or I just need to work with the ball and possibly surface a bit more. Thanks everyone.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2009, 11:09:56 AM »

quote:
Brickguy
In adding a flare increasing weight hole, it depends on the reaction or change you are looking for.
There are a few different ways to accomplish this.
If you want to increase the overall reaction, place the weight hole 2"-3 3/8" from the PAP down the VAL.
If you want to increase the flare, as well as length and back end, place the weight hole on a line from the pin through and past the PAP 2"-3 3/8".
The strongest placement of a weight hole is 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP.
Larger diameter weight holes generally create an earlier overall reaction in comparison to a smaller diameter weight hole. Shallower has a similar effect compared to a deeper weight hole.
I suggest starting with a 7/8" drill bit 2" deep. This will allow the best range of variance in altering the reaction. You can go deeper, as well as larger with the weight hole to altering the reaction.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks a bunch Ric. It definitely makes sense. I've had two balls in the past (Brunswick (BTV) Forest Green Quantum & Storm Triple X with a hole 2" past my PAP) On the Forest Quantums, I had 2 of them drilled close to similar with one having the hole 2" past the PAP and it was really strong on the back end compared to the other one. Also had a Storm Triple X with the hole 2" past the PAP and it too had a good backend. I had heard a hole in this position would help with the backend and length and mentioned it to one of my drillers and he said it didn't matter, but he isn't always the "smartest tool in the shed", thus I made my post here.

--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

JohnP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2009, 11:15:23 AM »

After selecting the location for a balance hole, if I have any suspicion that later flare rings might hit the hole I mark it with a couple of pieces of tape and have the customer throw the ball. If it hits the tape, I know for sure the location has to be changed. If it doesn't hit the tape I check to see how close the track has come. If it's gotten within about an inch of the tape, I move it a little away from the last track ring. The hole is going to increase the flare which could then hit the hole. -- JohnP

J_w73 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:00:43 PM »

quote:
Brickguy

If you want to increase the overall reaction, place the weight hole 2"-3 3/8" from the PAP down the VAL.
If you want to increase the flare, as well as length and back end, place the weight hole on a line from the pin through and past the PAP 2"-3 3/8".
The strongest placement of a weight hole is 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP.

being that you have done extensive testing on this can you expand on how you come up with the 2" - 3 3/8" past the PAP number?? Doesn't it really depend on the Pin to PAP measurement.. like you said the most differential is gained with a hole 6 3/4 from the pin cause this takes weight out of the direct side of the core increasing the differential?

So I do agree with your 6 3/4 remark.. just the generic "on the PAP or inches past the pap " I don't agree with. I know brunswick has done this on their drill sheets for ages.. and what they say makes sense if you have the pin at leverage (3 3/8).. On PAP won't really change dynamics.. just static weight for legality.. inside pap will roll sooner and earlier(cause of lowering rg).. past the pap will increase differential..
I don't recal them stating that those weight hole reactions were for a pin at 3 3/8 from the PAP..

I am interested in what you know about the hole location and what it does to the reaction... example.. a hole 6 3/4 from the pin near the thumbhole.. vs 3 3/8 from the PAP vs past the PAP... basically holes in the side of the core but in different orientations to the rotation of the ball..

I also want to know what influences ball reaction more.. differential (flare) or RG..or how does the combination work together..?

example.. for a 5 " pin to pap..if you put a weight hole on the pin in shortens the core and therefore lowers the rg.. but it also reduces the differential and flare..

if you put a weight hole 6 3/4 from the pin I guess the rg will still be about the same but the differential and flare will increase. so what would be the difference in a ball with a higher rg pin placement.. with and without a flare increasing weighthole??

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:07:21 PM »

quote:
I was looking at a couple of different layouts for my Raw Hammer Burn, and with the pin being at about 2 inches, I was worried if I put the pin above the fingers it may require a weight hole, and I wanted the length and flip reaction I had been hearing about, so I didn't want to put the pin below the fingers. I decided to drill out the pin completely in the ring finger, and placed the CG almost in the middle of the grip. The ball has great length, but the backend isn't anywhere near what I have been hearing from others who have thrown it. There is definitely a strong move, but more of a jump to the left when playing straighter, not really a change of direction/get around the corner flip. I'm wondering if drilling the pin out tames down the reaction a bit, or I just need to work with the ball and possibly surface a bit more. Thanks everyone.

for flip you want a high rg layout...you want the finger and thumb holes to take weight out of the side of the core if you want more flip on the backend.. this preserves the high rg of the ball. a pin up above the fingers and closer to the VAL will do this. if you drill into the pin you are shortening the core and lowering the rg and making the ball rev faster and want to use its energy sooner..as said before..
like stated.. the pin to pap placement also has alot to do with it.. at leverage (3 3/8 pin to pap) the ball won't have the max flip.. you want something in the 5 to 5 1/2 inch pin to pap (higher rg)... also.. your release, rotational axis and revs have alot to do with it.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:51:36 PM »

also want to add that this is for layouts that have the pin to pap at more than 3 3/8" if it is closer to the PAP then drilling into the pin will have different reaction result.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

JustRico · « **Reply #21 on:** July 09, 2009, 08:24:23 PM »

When you are adding a weight hole to a ball, you are doing to adjust the ball reaction as well as alter the amount of flare. If a ball is at maximum flare, then adding a weight hole generally decreases ball reaction by increasing flare. Overflaring can diminish ball reaction or create inconsistant reaction.
When I am adding a weight hole, I use 2, either 2 1/4" or 3 3/8" from the PAP. 3 3/8" in maximum position for altering flare and 2 1/4" is less aqnd in my opinion more manageable. Such as starting with an 1 1/4" weight hole you have less variance or no where to go from there. 2 1/4" I have the option of using either a larger weight hole or deeper weight hole. I am not risking go too far right off the bat.
As far as your other questions...it all depends on the amount of flare you are starting or dealing with, on how much you will effect it with a weight hole. A flare reducing hole in some instances can increase reaction more than a flare increasing weight hole when used in the right situation.
Surface generally still dictates as much, if not more, than anything before as well as after drilling, when it comes to altering ball reaction. It is your best starting point to altering ball reaction.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"

J_w73 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:47:19 AM »

quote:
When you are adding a weight hole to a ball, you are doing to adjust the ball reaction as well as alter the amount of flare. If a ball is at maximum flare, then adding a weight hole generally decreases ball reaction by increasing flare. Overflaring can diminish ball reaction or create inconsistant reaction.
When I am adding a weight hole, I use 2, either 2 1/4" or 3 3/8" from the PAP. 3 3/8" in maximum position for altering flare and 2 1/4" is less aqnd in my opinion more manageable. Such as starting with an 1 1/4" weight hole you have less variance or no where to go from there. 2 1/4" I have the option of using either a larger weight hole or deeper weight hole. I am not risking go too far right off the bat.
As far as your other questions...it all depends on the amount of flare you are starting or dealing with, on how much you will effect it with a weight hole. A flare reducing hole in some instances can increase reaction more than a flare increasing weight hole when used in the right situation.
Surface generally still dictates as much, if not more, than anything before as well as after drilling, when it comes to altering ball reaction. It is your best starting point to altering ball reaction.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"

I have heard the term overflaring.. is this the same as rollout? If not, please explain overflaring
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_Mac · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2009, 01:58:02 AM »

Your bowties should look similar to the left side of this illustration...

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x16/madcelt2000/IMG_0631.jpg

If your ball is over flaring, it looks like what is on the right side.

JustRico · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:39:24 AM »

Overflaring is when the pin placement for the bowler, is too close to leverage or 3 3/8", creating too much flare for the bowler's rev rate. This can occur at 3 3/8" or 5" depending on core strength.
Roll out is when the bowling ball loses lateral rotation.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"

J_w73 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2009, 09:45:23 AM »

quote:
Your bowties should look similar to the left side of this illustration...

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x16/madcelt2000/IMG_0631.jpg

If your ball is over flaring, it looks like what is on the right side.

thanks for that.. that makes sense... and of course I must ask.. what actually causes the ball to do that.. is it the core.. if the ball has a high diff and its drilled at leverage why wouldn't the bow tie stay put but just higher flare rings..

does the "over flaring" put the core in a position so the ball won't roll or hook correctly..

my experience I think with it is my AMB immortal particle.. I drilled it leverage .. the thing has a .078 diff if I remember.. the ball had flare rings 2 inches apart but just rolled weird and didn't really have a good motion.. everyone told me it was rolling out but the ball wasn't.. it had side motion down the whole lane.. just rolled odd and didn't hook...
I redrilled it with a 5 or 6 inch pin to pap and the ball had a much better motion..

was I seeing overflaring??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Strider · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:33:56 PM »

quote:
quote:
the pin is the top of the core, it will not change reaction by drilling it out..
--------------------
Steven...The Lane 1 rocket surgeon officially sponsored by Kool-aid and M&Ms....

Actually, drilling into the pin increases the differential of the ball which could increase the amount of flare that normal pin to PAP distance would create.
--------------------
Master of leaving the solid 10 pin

Hey, go check out my stats =]
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Oh yeah, I'll plug my shop too: GO CHECK OUT The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop!

I think you're wrong here. Since the pin is just a marker for the top of the core, it shouldn't make any difference if you don't hit the core. That will depend on how deep you drill and the shape/size of the core. If you do hit it, wouldn't you decrease differential? You'd be taking material from the top, so you'd be making the core shorter. That would decrease the difference between the high RG and low RG values, therefore lowering the differential, right?
--------------------
Penn State Proud

Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive

J_w73 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:35:51 PM »

quote:
quote:
the pin is the top of the core, it will not change reaction by drilling it out..
--------------------
Steven...The Lane 1 rocket surgeon officially sponsored by Kool-aid and M&Ms....

Actually, drilling into the pin increases the differential of the ball which could increase the amount of flare that normal pin to PAP distance would create.
--------------------
Master of leaving the solid 10 pin

Hey, go check out my stats =]
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=5993&suffix=4049

Oh yeah, I'll plug my shop too: GO CHECK OUT The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop!

must disagree.. when you drill into the pin you are shortening the core making the rg closer to the rg at 90 degrees to the pin.. making less rg differential.. therefore less flare...a spherical core(without finger holes) has no rg differential.... if you make the core taller than wide then you create a differential in the rgs.. if you have a core that is taller than it is wide and then make it shorter you are doing the opposite and therefore reducing the rg differential
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 7/10/2009 12:38 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2009, 12:40:33 PM »

to add.. to increase differential and flare you would want to take weight out of the side of the core to leave the high rg and make the low rg lower, increasing the rg differential..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Author Topic: Drilling into the pin (Read 5799 times)

thegame

Drilling into the pin

Brickguy221

Re: Drilling into the pin

JohnP

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J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin

J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin

J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin

JustRico

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J_w73

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J_Mac

Re: Drilling into the pin

JustRico

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J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin

Strider

Re: Drilling into the pin

J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin

J_w73

Re: Drilling into the pin