BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: lefty50 on May 19, 2017, 08:28:51 PM
-
Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question, but I'm trying to noodle thru this... By my own measurements, I have 70-90 degrees axis rotation, which should translate into skid. I have a ball (Vandal #2) that comes out to be 30 x 4.5 x 35, and doesn't move much. I had thought that shortening the angles would help, not hurt. I have another ball, a solid (Melee Cross), that comes up as 70 x 3.5 x 50, which works great.
I know I shouldn't say ignore surface, but for purposes of this discussion, both balls are 2000. The Vandal is lightly polished...
Is the following scenario possible for a low rev lefty on decent amount of oil? Speed is 13.5 on the Brunswick monitor. PAP is 5 x 1
Short drill angle, first transition completes in the oil, second transition is still in oil instead of end of the pattern, so doesn't really get into hook phase too well, and by the time I get to the end of pattern, the ball has done it's dance, all in the oil, never really grabbing, but it's essentially spun it's wheels in the oil... There's nothing left? Ergo, it appears weak.
Forget adjustments, forget alternatives, those are the next questions. Is the scenario itself as described above theoretically possible?
Thanks
L50
-
Video of both balls would be great. Or at least the vandal
-
Changing the surface of the balls will change the roll,no matter what drill angles you have on it
-
What is your axis tilt?
-
I measured it at 12 degrees.
-
Surface, surface, surface.....is king
Pin-pap is next
Core strength is in the conversation
layouts/tweaks are down the list a little
-
I hear an echo in here........ 😎
-
Apologies, I thought it was clear, but it probably wasn't. Yes, we all know surface comes first, but this is a new DV8 Vandal, my second, polished, that I am trying to get to perform as is it's default characteristic, length with snap. Sure, I could sand it to 500 and get a different reaction, but guys, that isn't the point. The question, restated, is this. Can a ball go thru the first 2 transitions while still in the oil and for that reason come off the pattern weakly?
APologies if I was unclear originally.
-
No
-
The ball is transitioning from hook to roll too quickly. How much volume are you bowling on?
-
Thanks its... I'll look for another answer then. I've explored surface on this one already before I asked. It's got to be continued issues with the way I'm prepping the ball.
100... To me, as a low rev lefty, volume is a relative term. The house I bowl at is classified as medium for the righties... As you would expect, as they are balling down all night, I frequently find myself trying to get something started up until end of 2nd game with my "medium" bag.. Melee Cross, GB2, both drilled strong. And yet, my Scandal and Phaze II are weak at the same point.....
-
If your melee cross is working better than your Scandal and Phaze II, then you don't have enough oil. I'm going to say it's hitting the friction and expending it's energy before you can even see it. Take the surface up and see if that helps.
-
Let's see if we are in sync... The relative reaction of the Melee Cross to the Phaze II and Scandal were for reference. The actual ball I mentioned earlier is a polished Vandal (Vandal #2 for me). I agree with the conclusion on Scandal and P II, but they are for other conditions. Everything I have currently is set around 55-60 x 4 x 60, including V #1. Until V#1, everything was early and smooth. I need more length and angle, so I bought V#1. Works fine sometimes, but I tend to go thru the break point. When I changed surface to fix that, I lost too much angle. Soooo... In comes V#2, set with smaller angles to transition earlier, and in theory snap quicker. See where I'm going? That ball comes off the pattern DOA, or at least on life support. Yes, I can tweak the surface, but I'm sure I'll end up with a loss of angle that the whole adventure has been trying to gain. Hence the original question... I've never used angles this short before, could it be doing its dance in the pattern and all done by the time it hits the end? Sounds like the answer is no, that's not possible, so I'll have to touch surface next, maybe just crack the shell...
-
I see, lefty50. It could be that the ball is somewhat conditional with the layout you on it. I have used smaller angle sums on weaker covers in the past and I would end up getting skid in oil and puke in excessive friction which means no backend reaction especially on dry heads with carrydown. I would stick to medium to higher angle sums (to lengthen the hook phase) and just match up surface with the pattern.
-
At low revs and 13.5 mph looking for snap is searching for a unicorn.
-
100, I think you're on target. Its.. I can't say I agree. Harder yes, impossible, no. And again, relative. Each ball has it's characteristics, and properly combining the factors should still produce an improvement over what I have now. I should add here, that my efforts so far have not been without reward... Last month, at age 60+, I had my first 800, followed by two 750's. I'm convinced I'm exploring in the right direction.
-
Apologies, I thought it was clear, but it probably wasn't. Yes, we all know surface comes first, but this is a new DV8 Vandal, my second, polished, that I am trying to get to perform as is it's default characteristic, length with snap. Sure, I could sand it to 500 and get a different reaction, but guys, that isn't the point. The question, restated, is this. Can a ball go thru the first 2 transitions while still in the oil and for that reason come off the pattern weakly?
APologies if I was unclear originally.
I would say yes. My friend had a Lock that put the MB in a very early position along with a pin distsnce that wants to get into a roll vs keep the axis rotstion. It read so early and puked downlane. When it saw volume, you could see the ball revving up, but have nothing downlane. On shorter patterns, the ball shaped more, but still forced the user to play straighter angles as the ball did not have the backend shape as other stuff would. I had them take the ball all the way from fresh 1000 all the way to 4000 polished with just about everything in between. It altered the ball reaction, but still had the same lazy characteristics.Hope this answers the question.
-
One more thing Lefty... (IMO)The best way to achieve a Skid/Snap reaction on your Vandal is to keep the cover polished and you want a larger drill angle accompanied with a smaller VAL angle. These factors will help with length but also give you a more angular reaction.
-
Agreed, and thanks. I realize it won't turn a smooth ball like ... say... a Scandal into a skid snap, but in the case of a ball characteristically designed for length and backend, like a Vandal, it "should" compliment the design. Which basically says I may have come down to far on the drill angle. First transition is too soon for my game. And again, head nod to the surface crowd... Yes, the importance is understood. The ball needs to slow down, agreed. We experiment, we learn, we get better.