Post by: jjweb on October 11, 2004, 05:12:17 PM
I know I need to change some stuff with my span and pitches; I just don’t know what.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: khamûl on October 12, 2004, 01:18:03 AM
read http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=64135&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
for a basic primer...
and http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=62798&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5
for the 201 coursework.
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two of nine
Post by: cgilyeat on October 12, 2004, 07:08:02 AM
Post by: JohnP on October 12, 2004, 12:41:10 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 01:16:10 PM
I hate to say it you've entered the Twilight zone!
That area that can also be called the all F-d up zone.
Often this starts with the coke bottle test.
I find many people can not do it properly! They want a certain result.
Even with me standing right there guiding them and trying to relax their hand often they WANT a certain result. ie thumb lateral out.
Failing to ever get them relaxed the fitting ball is the key. A snug thumbhole and adjusting until there is no biting on the corner of the thumb nail works every time! The guy can even be stiff! Then a toss to the driller of the fitting ball and even the stiffest of hands wanting the most unfitting of grips cannot fool this test.
Leave the twilight zone. Go to a driller with a fitting ball. Also ask him do most of your students end up with a certain lateral pitch. IF he says no whatever they test out at you know you've found the right one.
I have a funny feeling it will be your lateral pitch of thumb but whatever it is you will get it fixed with a no bias driller and a fitting ball.
I GUARANTEE it. If it costs 15 to 20 for this fitting session it IS worth it!
Get it right!
rEgards,
Luckylefty
IF I was standing with you we would get it fixed but I can't!
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 12, 2004, 01:47:03 PM
The reason I ask is with that span length and an average flexiblity in your thumb I would think you would need between 1/4 and 3/8 reverse. This is going by a chart that I got from here
http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/thumbangle.pdf
The broken blood vessels under middle figernail sound like a too long span.
The forward pitch you now have effectively lengthens your span.
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STORMIN1
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 02:01:05 PM
Lucky, my driller does have a fitting ball. Every other driller wouldn't listen to me, they wanted it to fit a certain way. Whether or not it was comfortable, but because "Oh, this will help your rev rate" or some other crap like that. After doing the coke bottle test again (about a 100 times in-a-row now) my thumb does point in between my index and middle.
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 12, 2004, 02:19:02 PM
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STORMIN1
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 02:30:18 PM
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 12, 2004, 02:37:23 PM
If no I will explain.
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STORMIN1
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 02:44:38 PM
The edge of the insert is about a 1/8 higher than my middle finger's first joint, and the ring almost 3/8ths.
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Edited on 10/12/2004 2:36 PM
Post by: BAPS_Eric on October 12, 2004, 02:44:48 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 02:58:33 PM
O lateral pitch and a little less forward or slight touch of reverse should get you back to near correct.
Also if middle finger continues to have pressure you must reverse finger or shorten spans slightly.
The effect of your forward thumb fingers and span length makes it play like a 5 1/4 to 5 1/2 inch span for a normally supple hand with standard pitches!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS tables show a 5/16 reverse is standard for that span so you have really lengthened the feel of that span!
Edited on 10/12/2004 2:51 PM
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 03:16:45 PM
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Edited on 10/12/2004 3:08 PM
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 06:35:15 PM
Here is a pic of where the midline of my fingers meet the insert edge:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAwMTM0NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
You can see the blood under the nail too.
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 06:46:05 PM
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: T-GOD on October 12, 2004, 07:09:33 PM
Now tell me where your creases land in relationship to the front edge of your finger holes and/or the front edge of the grips, if you're using finger grips.
I need to know if your crease is directly even with the front edge of the hole/grip or if the crease is in the middle/center of the hole/grip. Or, if your crease is halfway between the edge and center or is your crease halfway past the center of the hole and the back edge of the hole..?
I need to know this for both fingers. Where your crease lands in relationship to your finger holes. Then we can go from there. =:^D
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 07:24:34 PM
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 08:44:14 PM
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAwNDI2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: jjweb on October 12, 2004, 09:09:19 PM
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 13, 2004, 08:17:36 AM
A general rule from Bill Taylor is that if you ring finger is 5/16 shorter than your middle finger (measured to the final joing closest to fingertips) then your spans are equal.
If 1/4 inch shorter then the ring is 1/16 longer, 3/16 then ring span is 1/8 longer. and so on!
Why? Because if you look at your hand you'll notice that your thumb is not naturally under your bridge it is to the side of the middle of fingers.
If you were a chicken your third finger would be in between your middle and ring finger! Therefore the 5/16 adjustment compensates for the fact the ring is farther away from the thumb(to the side of thumb).
Go back stretch hand out. Take pictures if you want. Your end joint for modern relaxed fitting should be slightly past the center of the fingerholes.
For older style stretched fingertip your joint should just be to the middle of the fingerhole opening. The way your middle finger looks now. Look at picture.
However I don't believe your hand is stretched.
The impression I am getting is the following. Middle finger is too short!
Ring is too long.
So do this.
1. Hold up palm of hand to camera(not back) and take picture. Tell us difference in inches between middle and ring last joint length. 1/4", 5/16"? 3/16", 1/8"?
2. Stretch hand out a little and retake picture with your hand in ball prorelease on.
3. Do coke bottle test and and take picture.
4. Push bowling thumb back and show picture of how far back it bends. Don't push too hard. BEnd back towards elbow.
Your grip definitely looks hosed up! ONe won't know till we see you stretched a little on ball.
REgards,
LUckylefty
Let's dehosify this situation!
Post by: T-GOD on October 13, 2004, 12:04:59 PM
I would shorten your middle by 1/4" and your ring by 7 1/16". This will leave you with a slightly dropped ring finger. This is how most of the pro's have their grip. Your actual span will be 4 9/16 for your middle finger and 4 1/2 for your ring.
Now as far as your thumb goes, you were dropping the ball because your span was too long, not because you had too much reverse pitch in your thumb. I would go with 1/16 left pitch in the thumb and 1/8 reverse.
Beveling the thumb is the most important factor in my book, not the pitches. The key is to get your thumb down in as deep as possible, while still being able to release the ball cleanly. You also want the hole tight. This can be done with tape once you've beveled the top of the hole correctly.
If you thumb joint is stiff, not like a hinge, then you'll probably need more reverse, especially if you want to put a high amount of revs on the ball.
Let's start from here and see how it goes. I'm sure it's going to feel MUCH better than what you have now. Good luck and report back. =:^D
Post by: jjweb on October 13, 2004, 01:59:34 PM
Pic of palm:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
Pic of thumb flex:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
Pic of coke bottle test, one with supporter and one without it:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
And here is the one with my fingers stretched:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMjAwNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
If I do add reverse to the middle finger, will I lose some revs to the ball (what little of them I have)? Or will the new relaxed grip help increase it?
I can't thank any of you enough for all of the help. Thanks!
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: jjweb on October 13, 2004, 02:33:32 PM
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMjYyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
And my ring finger:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMjYzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 13, 2004, 03:36:31 PM
When I grab a small bottle of hand lotion I test out at my index finger too!
BUT when I grab a Coke bottle (or in my case a diet coke bottle) I point at the space between my middle and ring!
Could you redo this test with a glass the size of a coke bottle or a COKE bottle.
Sprite bottle or Dr. Pepper will do.
Then we can get the real results.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: solid9 on October 13, 2004, 03:54:13 PM
Lad: find a ball fitter who can fit your hand. not a ball driller. If you need help finding one, e-mail me or any of the people on this site who can find one for you.
Post by: Re-Evolution on October 13, 2004, 04:26:52 PM
quote:
The impression I am getting is the following. Middle finger is too short!
Ring is too long.
How can you say that it is obvious that his span is too long. He even has a blood blister under his finger nail on middle finger and that is a sign of a too long span if i ever saw one.
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STORMIN1
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 13, 2004, 05:58:20 PM
I had moved forward and agree that both fingers need to be shorter!
King of kings believes middle finger problem has a lot more to do with ring finger excessive span also!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: T-GOD on October 13, 2004, 06:03:40 PM
You can stay with 0 forward or reverse in your fingers for now also, I would go with 1/2 left pitch in the middle finger and 3/8" right in your ring finger.
Now for the bevel of your thumb, you'll need a nice funnel like taper from the top to the middle of your hole. This will allow you to put your thumb in deep, allowing your palm to rest more on the ball. Key bevel pionts is at 1:30, 4:30 and 10:30. These areas of the thumb should have more bevel to fit your thumb as well as being able to release the ball cleanly. =:^D
Post by: jjweb on October 13, 2004, 08:05:13 PM
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
(One coke was harmed in the taking of this picture)
And I also thought I should show off my thumb, just to give you an idea of it's condition:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
I do have a nice hard callous about a 1/2 an inch long on the inside of my thumb, starting from my thumb knuckle.
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The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!