BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: J_w73 on February 11, 2016, 05:09:59 PM
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I was watching Xtra Frame today and someone from Innovative was talking about a drilling/layout for a thumbless bowler that would allow 6 different layouts on the ball and, I'm assuming, still be legal.
I'm guessing this would just be three holes in a triangle around the cg, so that no matter which two holes you used with your fingers (and no thumb) it would be statically legal. Depending on the holes used, it would allow the pin to be in 6 different positions and give 6 different reactions.
Anyone know anything about this? They said they pulled up a picture online, but I couldn't find anything.
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Heres one
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fy7wrrld3b%2Fno_thumbhole_layout.jpg&hash=7cf18e6abaf354e4da6b2e8b4cc7699ca0ee73dc)
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Fruya2ju2v%2F3holeballs.jpg&hash=6707488cb98bc4790ecab39a8a688797169d12ac)
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So, that's legal because any two holes can be used for gripping, and the leftover hole would be considered the weight hole?
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So, that's legal because any two holes can be used for gripping, and the leftover hole would be considered the weight hole?
I think that would be correct
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My ball driller's head is probably spinning around. He's already of the mindset that two-handed bowling needs to be outlawed. If sees this, he's going to freak! lol
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don't you have to have 3 "griping" holes that are atleast covered by the hand?
in the example above, if the 3rd hole is under the hand it would be legal.
using the example above, if the 3rd hole was not covered by the hand and was in fact used as a balance hole then how would the ball be legal in static weight? if there is no "thumb" hole, then you cant measure finger/thumb weights.
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This has been floating around a while. Drilled a few for one local guy who really likes it.
Hell whats not to like, you got options.
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don't you have to have 3 "griping" holes that are atleast covered by the hand?
No you don't. You technically dont need any gripping holes
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don't you have to have 3 "griping" holes that are at least covered by the hand?
No
in the example above, if the 3rd hole is under the hand it would be legal.
using the example above, if the 3rd hole was not covered by the hand and was in fact used as a balance hole then how would the ball be legal in static weight? if there is no "thumb" hole, then you cant measure finger/thumb weights.
You don't need a thumb hole to measure the static weights.
One thing you can't do with that layout is use finger inserts, because you can't have one in a "weight hole"
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don't you have to have 3 "griping" holes that are atleast covered by the hand?
in the example above, if the 3rd hole is under the hand it would be legal.
using the example above, if the 3rd hole was not covered by the hand and was in fact used as a balance hole then how would the ball be legal in static weight? if there is no "thumb" hole, then you cant measure finger/thumb weights.
The third hole is a weight hole.. not a thumb hole. That covering the thumb hole was the rule for a while for no thumbers so that they couldn't shift their hand so much that they were releasing the ball so it wasn't statically legal..
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Don't understand how you measure the static weights without a thumb hole. without the drip lines how do you define the hemispheres that you compare for static weight?
guess I haven't cared enough to keep up on these rule changes as much as you guys.
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Center of the grip would be in between the fingers
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Don't understand how you measure the static weights without a thumb hole. without the drip lines how do you define the hemispheres that you compare for static weight?
guess I haven't cared enough to keep up on these rule changes as much as you guys.
The weight is determined by where the grip center is, with no thumb hole the grip center is in between the finger holes
See the USBC EQUIPMENT SPECIFICATIONS MANUAL here for more information:
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/ESManual.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/ESManual.pdf)
and a ball used without any gripping holes or indentations at all just may not have more than 1 ounce of difference between any two halves of the ball.
A lot of these are not actually new rules either.
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I just had my driller put this layout on a Brunswick Melee that he wanted off the shelf. It's pretty neat Being able to pack six different reactions into one bowling ball. I have to do some more testing, but the results were pretty interesting so far.
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I just had my driller put this layout on a Brunswick Melee that he wanted off the shelf. It's pretty neat Being able to pack six different reactions into one bowling ball. I have to do some more testing, but the results were pretty interesting so far.
What pitches did he use so that the fingers didn't run together?
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In the end, he just ended up zeroing them out. We thought about going 1/8 or 1/16 away, but after playing around on a test ball, we found that we could keep them at zero and still avoid having the holes run into one another.
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It also helps to keep the fingers shallow.
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Yeah, we only went like 1.5" deep for the finger holes.
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Did the same. Very cool option for no thumb bowlers
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I'm not committing to going no-thumb permanently, but I am going to dedicate some practice time to. When it's right, it's tough to match the hitting power.
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I have 2 questions:
1. Tracking
How does this perform over time in terms of the track? The ball will be tracking "up to" 6 different bow ties..no?
2. Layouts
I couldn't imagine having to figure out what layout to use....the user probably has 2 or 3, maybe 4 that they like.
I mean I guess how it goes with pin to pap would make a list of strongest to weakest layout.
I'm highly intrigued by this!
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Bill,
1. Yes, the tracking is hilarious. Since it was new to me, I was flipping the ball all around and using all six configurations. As such, the ball had lines going every which way. Clearly, I will have to wipe the ball down after every shot (maybe even using one of the "approved during use" cleaners) and give it a good cleaning after each set: otherwise, that ball can/will have gunk on just about every inch of the surface.
2. We kept the layout pretty basic for this first one. We basically went 12-6, 1:30-7:30, 3-9, and 4:30-10:30. We considered starting with a slight shift off of that in order to bring in different characteristics, but, again, since it was the first ball we've played with like this, we thought it best to stay simple. If we do others, we'll likely play around a bit more.
I definitely saw reaction differences, but it's going to take some time and practice to really hash it out, especially since no-thumb is something that I've just started experimenting with again. For now, it would be more beneficial to watch someone who has a finely-honed no-thumb delivery since he or she can repeat shots better than I can at this point.
On a side note, my driller also pointed out that a doubles team, whether it be two righties, two lefties, or one of each, could use the same ball(s) and simply flip the layouts around as long as their fingers were of comparable size. That would be too funny to watch!
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Its bad enough the advantage a two finger and two hander have.But geez now this.
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You're certainly not alone in feeling that way, but I respectfully disagree. It still comes down to execution because if you think it's easy to deliver the ball consistently using those no-thumb styles, I challenge you to give it a shot (assuming you haven't).
Also, what is it about no-thumb/two hands that provides the advantage you're speaking of? If you're talking about speed/revs, how is that any different from any other situation where one bowler can create more speed/revs than others? I assume you're going to claim that it takes more skill, technique, and talent to impart that kind of speed and those revs using your thumb, but, again, some would argue that it takes more flexibility and athleticism to deliver a ball using one of the no-thumb styles.
Now, in regard to the specific idea of being able to lay balls out like this, I can definitely understand where you're coming from there since you can theoretically get 18 different ball reactions out of three bowling balls. But still, I can tell you just from the playing around I did last night that that doesn't do you much good if you can't the ball onto the lane properly using that delivery.
In any case, all of this is just a sign of the times in the world of bowling. Now, if we all vote to turn back the clock and take Brian Voss' suggestions - require everyone to use their thumb and use plastic, pancake-cored balls to actually demand shot-making - I'll be right there ready to give it a shot. My first youth leagues were during the urethane days, so I've seen first hand just how much easier the game has gotten as the equipment changed. However, I'm not into shaking my fist at the wind. As such, until/unless those changes are made mandatory, I will adapt rather than spit in the wind and rant about all of the terrible changes that have taken place.
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The advantage is rev rate and the room it creates.We have guys here that throw two finger or two fingers with two hands that can't hit within 5 boards of each shot.With the walled up houseshots most can throw 4th arrow to the first.
Most two finger bowlers sucked trying to use a thumb.Thats why most here started doing it.Not really trying to bash anybody for how they want to bowl.Just saying they get enough advantage is it is with these walled up houseshots.
Take that away and its fun watching them shoot 150s.Just bowled a six game sweeper on wtba rome pattern 7 loads 2 to 2.Watched one two hander who thinks hes a superstar miss the headpin for 6 games.Pretty amazing shot wasn't really that hard square up straight down 3rd arrow.
As far as trying the two handed delivery I am 55 years old been bowling forty years had four back surgeries.I can throw with 2 fingers but my control is much better using my thumb.I have around 400rr so 2 finger really don't gain much for me.My body enjoys 3 finger release much better.
I know I won't be around ,But it will be interesting to see how the two handed bowlers will be bowling in the senior leagues.I think most of them the bowling career will be over.
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I hear what you're saying, but there are "traditional" bowlers who create huge speed and revs rates too, so don't they have the exact same advantage on those walled-up house shots you're talking about? Plus, you kind of proved my point with the second part you brought up. Sure, some of those two-hand/no thumb guys look great when they have two arrows worth of area to throw at, but when you put them on something tough, they have to execute, or they're done just like everyone else.
That's what I think a lot of people, BV included, seem to miss. You don't automatically gain an advantage the second you take your thumb out of the ball and start putting 650 revs on it. You still have to throw the ball to the right spot, with the right speed, and achieve the right angle in order to score. So, you still have to make shots. Now, if you can make those shots, your carry percentage will probably be better than most due to the speed and revs, but, again, there have always been bowlers out there who are able to generate more speed and revs than others. Was Mark Roth a cheater for hammering on the ball back in the day? Were Robert Smith, Rudy Revs, etc. cheaters because they could do it? Why is doing that with your thumb in okay but doing it with your thumb out wrong?
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Gene,
If I remember correctly you were the guinea pig for USBC coaching 2 handers. Just out of curiosity how long did you commit to 2 handed and how good did you get?
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I did it for a full year. In terms of how good I got, I shot 1548 at the Open Championships shortly after starting the experiment. The next year, I shot 1740, so, yes, I saw quite a bit of improvement.
I didn't stick with two-handed all that long after the project ended because I lacked the flexibility to ever truly be comfortable using that delivery. Still, I saw some amazing things and had a ton of fun during that experiment!
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To me the one thing that nobody ever mentions is the stupid 3 units of oil rule.That was 80s an early 90s.3 units of oil is plenty for urethane balls.Since reactive urethane has came out the rule hasn't changed.Should be at least triple that with the equipment of today.That would fix a lot of guys creating so much margin of error.I know its not gonna change at this point.But I think that's where they missed the boat on all this.Ball companies are the only ones that seem to be profiting.Its really a shame.Got to be be profit when you can come out with 3 to 4 balls every 3 months.When the USBC crumbles I bet Ball companies and the BPAA take over.Oh well is what it is.
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To me the one thing that nobody ever mentions is the stupid 3 units of oil rule.That was 80s an early 90s.3 units of oil is plenty for urethane balls.Since reactive urethane has came out the rule hasn't changed.Should be at least triple that with the equipment of today.That would fix a lot of guys creating so much margin of error.I know its not gonna change at this point.But I think that's where they missed the boat on all this.Ball companies are the only ones that seem to be profiting.Its really a shame.Got to be be profit when you can come out with 3 to 4 balls every 3 months.When the USBC crumbles I bet Ball companies and the BPAA take over.Oh well is what it is.
I agree with you. There is so much friction and free hook outside, and at the back part of the lane, guys can throw the ball 20 + MPH and still have the ball hook and rev up at the pins and carry the world. There is a speed (I don't know what it is) that after you get past that point you don't even need to worry about entry angle most of the time. No pin ever gets trapped in the gutter and there is always 1,2 or 3 messengers flying around the deck to take out whatever is standing. With all these patterns having dry backends, no one has to slow down or change hand position to get the correct roll to get to the pocket and carry. I thought back in the 90s and earlier, they put the pattern down and then buffed the oil to the pins. USBC need to mandate 3 units (or more) of oil all the way to the pin decks. That would make people have to bowl with release and speed control... And yes, I know it will probably cause more ball calls for the mechanics....Just saying they need to do something so that 220+ average isn't the norm.
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The advantage is rev rate and the room it creates.We have guys here that throw two finger or two fingers with two hands that can't hit within 5 boards of each shot.With the walled up houseshots most can throw 4th arrow to the first.
Most two finger bowlers sucked trying to use a thumb.Thats why most here started doing it.Not really trying to bash anybody for how they want to bowl.Just saying they get enough advantage is it is with these walled up houseshots.
Take that away and its fun watching them shoot 150s.Just bowled a six game sweeper on wtba rome pattern 7 loads 2 to 2.Watched one two hander who thinks hes a superstar miss the headpin for 6 games.Pretty amazing shot wasn't really that hard square up straight down 3rd arrow.
As far as trying the two handed delivery I am 55 years old been bowling forty years had four back surgeries.I can throw with 2 fingers but my control is much better using my thumb.I have around 400rr so 2 finger really don't gain much for me.My body enjoys 3 finger release much better.
I know I won't be around ,But it will be interesting to see how the two handed bowlers will be bowling in the senior leagues.I think most of them the bowling career will be over.
I really don't think 2 hands, no thumb, or rolling the ball with your feet is the problem. I think the desire to let bowlers score as high as they want on a house shot is the real enemy. The technology isn't really a problem, at the end of the day if the oil was either thick enough or high enough in volume that there wasn't hold or free hook then it would be an even playing field for all. At the end of the day bowlers want to strike and "shred the rack" not earn every pin. This is the reason why you can't fill sport or scratch leagues at most houses or why tournaments on sport or challenge patterns don't have full attendance. Most don't want to be challenged they just want to be a house shot hero once every week. Our sport is dying and no one has an answer how to fix it.
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EG, the answer is simple, mediocre with lack of competition bowlers, I would love to see in every league a sport shot changing every 3 weeks, but that's just me and maybe the "tryhards" of our sport, because we know we would get better and why not give it a try at a regional vs pros. But the rest of the community 90%? Want to be mr high rev rate, lane sprayer and 220 avg guy on a house shot, put them on a sport and they will struggle for 120, then they are saying, "oh Duke shot a 190 avg at the US Open, he sucks"
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There is a lot of hypocrisy in bowling; that is for sure. Everyone claims that things are too easy when the other guy, someone they feel that they're better than, is shooting 700 every other week, but when the lane man tightens things up and the original speaker shoots 550 for a month straight, he's the first one claiming that the house is a brick yard and is threatening to quit! The sad truth is that a large percentage of bowlers don't really want the game to be challenging. They would rather tell someone that they are leading the league with a 235 average than tell them they're leading it with a 190. Even though they're the top dog in both instances, once sounds a lot better than the other in their heads.
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Agree with both comments above, I wish our sport was more like golf in a lot of ways. You can have all the power in the world off the tee but you still need to have the finesse to make an 18 foot putt up hill for par.
Why is it that with golf places like Pebble Beach are dream destinations but you couldn't get 10% of the league to come back if you put out the US Open as your house shot? I feel like our sport lacks pride and that really drives folks to want it easy.
A couple years back I shot 105 on Viper at a tournament, I still tell that story to house bowlers as an example of what real shots can be like. How many would just quit after that?
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Agreed. I've tried my hand in some PBA Regionals and a few Tour Qualifiers back when the tour traveled. I never really came all that close to winning anything out there, yet those experiences are still some of my favorites within my bowling career. I'm more proud of the 268 game I shot during a regional than I am of any of the 300s I've tossed in league. Sadly, a lot of bowlers just aren't willing to take that kind of shot to the old ego. They would rather shoot 250 with no effort than shoot a 210 that really took some awesome shot-making to accomplish.
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Hello,
I enjoy the two handed approach with thumbless delivery style of bowling. It makes applying rapid revolution rates a no brainer. However, the rest is more difficult than thumb in single arm swing approach bowling.
The rules for drilling allow for four finger holes and one balance hole. The balance hole is not a thumb hole, that is unless one puts one's thumb in it.
The four finger holes do not have to be utilized during every shot execution. As long as it can be demonstrated that they all can be used at the same time for a shot execution.
When there are more than two finger holes, the center of grip is an average of the four holes, as opposed to the bridge as when there are only two finger holes.
Now the beauty of this rule is that it would take a mathematician to create a three axis coordinate system and locate the center of four holes that are not on a straight line. And again, that center moves depending upon which fingers you put in on any given shot execution.
The important issue is what happens in competition. Well, if somebody challenges your ball, then it is removed until it can be verified. However, you can also challenge every one of the balls they have in their possession. You can force the removal of an entire team's balls if you wished to.
I suppose an offended party would produce video to prove that the shot was made with certain of the finger holes and that the ball does not balance out according to rules under that particular usage. Where is the enjoyment in that?
On the other note not asked by the original poster, we are seeing two handed approach bowlers on the tour throwing down the boards and winning from both sides of the lane. It is more difficult to get the necessary speed, but in the final analysis, thumbless bowling (accommodated by two hands on the ball) offers more ball roll versatility for any individual bowler once they learn the tricks.
Mray
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Easiest thing to do and avoid an static issues or weighing delays as mentioned.
Simply use balls with 2-3" pins and put the cg in the middle if the triangle of the 3 finger holes. It will weigh out fine no matter what you try and weigh from.
That's what I've done for bowlers using this layout system.
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153928734956737&id=724316736
Here's the vid.
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I'm now genuinely interested in trying this out if I get the chance. Anyone know where some more precise/exact drilling layouts can be found? I can't seem to find anything on this other than from here.
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I would like to know as well the layout specs of this. I ordered a DV8 Deviant and I was wanting to get it drilled to this layout. Does anyone have these specs so that I can get my ball drilled?
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I would like to know as well the layout specs of this. I ordered a DV8 Deviant and I was wanting to get it drilled to this layout. Does anyone have these specs so that I can get my ball drilled?
Just pick a pin to pap that you normally like and drill one of the finger positions with that layout. The rest will just be different as you rotate your hand around and use the different finger hole positions. You aren't going to be able to lay out the ball with 6 specific layouts. You will have 1 ball that you should be able to get 6 different shapes out of and be legal. That is the key.
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Thanks for the quick reply to my question J_w73 . I will be going this Saturday to get it drilled.
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My driller and I just kind of think of it in terms of clock positioning for the pin. So far, we've kept it simple and gone roughly 12 o'clock, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. As far as actual specs, I can ask him to write them down for me next time I go to the bowl.
The funny thing is the differences ball to ball. I've liked my original Melee using the 2 o'clock pin almost exclusively, yet out of the box, I immediately liked the roll of my 6 o'clock position on my black Hammer urethane. I only threw my Thug Unruly for 1-2 shots, so I don't know what I like best in that one yet.
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Thanks for the quick reply to my question J_w73 . I will be going this Saturday to get it drilled.
Thinking about it a bit, I guess there might be a little more science and thought that could/should go into the layouts. I don't think you want to set it up so one of the layouts ends up being over 6 3/4 from your pap... or one that ends up being to the right of your PAP. It wouldn't hurt anything you might just get an undesired ball reaction at one of the finger positions. Of course, a pin farther away from the finger holes is going to give a bigger difference in reaction as you rotate between the different grips.
That is what I like about this drilling. It is going to give you different ball reactions. That one reaction that you don't usually like or don't use often may be the one that works and pulls you through on a tough condition. I wish I didn't use a thumb so that I could take advantage of it.
You also need to make sure you get a ball with a pin length that will allow you to get the pin in the position/s you want and still be statically legal at every grip. CG in the middle of the holes is the easiest way to make sure it is legal.
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Hello again players,
Here are some issues to consider:
The cg is going to have to be close to the finger holes to keep the ball legal through its rotations of chosen fingers inserted.
The holes themselves are going to all have to be drilled big enough for the larger middle finger to be inserted, hmmm...
As far as ball reaction, a two handed approach bowler that doesn't use a thumb hole, and where the finger holes are large enough to insert down to conventional depth, the middle knuckle, has plenty of options.
The fingers may be inserted fully. The fingers may be inserted only to fingertip depth. One finger or the other may be inserted fully while the ball is turned such that the second finger is only inserted at fingertip depth. This is all made possible by the second hand being utilized to keep the ball on the rolling hand.
It may be, as I think I had suggested in an earlier post, that a two handed approach bowler could gain more advantage learning how to manipulate the axis rotation and axis tilt, as well as the revolution rate, by alternative releases. This rather than worrying so much about the weight block and setup. The finger depth insertion variations as mentioned will accommodate executing these alternative releases.
That said, I also intend to have a ball drilled with that triangular shaped layout, all holes big enough to fit the middle finger to conventional depth, and see if the ball will actually conform to static weight rules in each orientation. We'll see.
Obviously, since I would easily demonstrate that I could insert three fingers in those triangularly oriented holes at the same time, the center of grip will be the center of the triangle. But, then again, if I only insert two fingers, I could claim the center of grip between the two holes used (the bridge of those two holes), and claim the third hole as a balance hole. This maneuver would only be for technical purposes when needed for compliance.
My appologies, I did not write the rules. I do follow the rules. That is what they allow for.
Thumb in bowlers in some parts have complained incessantly about the seemingly unfair advantage and have pressed the USBC and PBA to try to take away some of the advantage by altering the rules to make them more punitive toward thumb out bowlers.
What they ended up achieving is a set of rules which are way more permissive and increase the advantage dramatically for the thumb out bowler that utilizes the two handed approach. And these newest rules are very clearly written with little ambiguity, and thus once pulled out of the bag to show to complainers what is actually written, complaints are immediately shut down.
Let's enjoy this new revolution in bowling. Quite frankly I was getting totally bored before I started with the two handed approach. I went from being a long time mediocre bowler whose best run was averaging 220, and who rarely saw a messenger, to a bowler that can produce messengers often. And when I want to throw caution to the wind, I can explode racks in ways that the thumb in 230 averagers are humbled by.
I'm not bragging, I'm too old to do it for anything but demonstration once in a while. But, I've taught others to do it for the same results. It's available to anybody with decent physical abilities.
And just in case you don't hear from me again soon, I'll give all a clue. Look closely for the similarities between Jason and Osku rather than the glaring differences. Yes, one is the skip step. But there are others, and one in particular which is the real key. Remember, reving it is a no brainer, so we are not talking about the release, or whether or not the ball is curled up on the wrist.
Good luck with it.
Mray
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http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/twohanded-and-nothumb-triangle-bowling-ball-drilling-layout?trk_msg=8ATJO22HE6049B8U9JLRM5M1UO&trk_contact=ISNTC8HTIK93HC143V7H0T62O4&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fwww.bowlingball.com%2fBowlVersity%2ftwohanded-and-nothumb-triangle-bowling-ball-drilling-layout&utm_campaign=2016-03-05+Hammer
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Thanks for the share, I need to plug up one of my balls I never throw and try this one out.