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Author Topic: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?  (Read 28313 times)

mumzie

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Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« on: December 21, 2003, 05:39:48 AM »
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc.

Is there one place to go that would have all the info?

Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects

And so on.
I can figure out that one layout does something different than another (duh), but when someone asks me how I want a ball laid out, I don't have a clue where to start.
When would I ask for a pin in ball? pin out? more top weight? less?

You get the idea.
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Borincano

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2004, 02:29:04 PM »
LuckyLefty.

Bought the Revolutions II book and confirms evrything you have said. Congrats on your Virtual Tournaments wins also.

Borincano

janderson

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2004, 02:35:35 PM »
The books Revolutions I and Revolutions II by Chip Zielke are an excellent source of information on ball layout, equipment selection, matching balls to lane conditions, building an arsenal, ... basically everything you could want to know.

The only thing Mr Zielke doesn't always cover in the book is the underlying physics of "why", but not everyone always wants to know the "why".
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2004, 10:45:31 PM »
I don't compare myself to Mr. Zielke and his wonderful book.
I know he has DONE it in the real world helping Pro tourists DO IT!

Please note I credit him and his wonderful book as one of my sources!  I don't agree with all points in the book but it is great!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2004, 06:46:09 AM »
Bull, those are too extreme examples for me, I defer to your knowledge on out of this world stuff like that.  1 1/2 inch pap, That's a spinner. The spinner of spinners!

Full rollers, I don't even think about them, time to change!  The pros did it in 1968!  Dave Davis told me he threw for two years to unlearn the full roller!

Oh, as to the question on hand fit I have these links where I've posted stuff (my interpertation of Bill Taylor's definitive book, "Fitting and Drilling".

http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=31018&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5

A very complete coverage called
"Musings on a Perfect fit"
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=27477&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5

Beveling tips from Mo Pinel, very important
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=16733&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5

Lateral thumb pitch and staying behind the ball
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=21407&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5

That's all I got on grip!

I've gone back above and changed left the drawings for a LEFTHANDER.
Why?  Because there is no border on right to make the drawing easy on right side of this format.

I've changed the notation on graphs to cg towards grip, stacked, and cg towards pap.

Hopefully that will improve things!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PPPSS Very important.
If you've been following this thread!
GO BACK TO THE CHARTS of 1:30, 12:00, and 10:30.

At the bottom of the graphs I've gone in and added stuff about axis rotation.
Up the backer type ball solutions, Extreme side rollers, and perfect 45 degree rollers.  It could be important as we progress to the conclusion of this!

Coming next!  Matching drillings with axis rotation and ball design, common drilling errors, or How to ruin a good ball, Finally, a method to make most of your balls "GOOD ONES".  Finally Seldom used Great drillings!


Edited on 1/13/2004 8:07 AM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2004, 08:16:19 AM »

This is one awesome thread! LL, you've gone a great job bringings all the ball layout factoids together. I'm looking forward to the next installment!
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Borincano

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2004, 10:03:00 AM »
If in the Magazine Bowling This Month they could just put out articles like this. It will be the magazine of the present and future of bowling. They all talk about the past, how I played, how this guy played, doing paste and copies of chapters of their books, how I help this guy but no complete saying of how or what they did to help him, that I coach this team from this country. After a lot of bla, bla bla. They say, Go see a coach. That is a given.

In bowling we should read, practice and then scout a good coach. With reading we get knowledge and practice makes our body feel the mechanics that will allows us to ask the proper questions to the coach and promote a better feedback and understand what he/she says to us.

Thanks Lefty

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2004, 10:34:13 PM »

LL, this is a great explanation of rg and its impact on ball selection and desired reaction. I now understand why my Apex Aggression will not jerk to the hole, no matter what I do! It also helps me undertsnad why my medium-lo balls go crazy once the heads and midlane begin to break down.


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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2004, 05:45:32 AM »
Matching axis rotation with drillings.

I think it is so important to know what you are!

Axis rotation that is!

Up the backers
10 to 35 degree axis rotation.  These guys are reaction minimizers in general.  When compared to the other bowlers below, (perfect 45 degree bowlers and side rollers).  Properties of up the backers are less backend than others when using the same ball and same drilling, more speed, and also the fact their ball wants to grab in the heads.  Typically the kicked out drillings or large kick out don't work for them.  Typically these guys find they can label or stack and surface means everything to them.

Perfect 45 degree rollers.  These guys get a lot of reaction and can use all 3 of the drillings referenced above very easily depending on condition.  They have medium high speed, are very versatile, have medium speed and good control of the breakpoint on many conditions.  Wish I was one.

Side Rollers or 55 to 90 degree side roll.  These bowlers are reaction maximizers. How do I know, I am one!  Lots of skid, not a lot of speed in general, big backends, and difficulty controlling the breakpoint.  Often too long too sharp and lots of ringing corner pins.  Our up the backer above is more subject to weak corner pins!  These bowlers tend to need drillings in the stacked to kicked out area to give them control of the break point!  Typical label leverage will often get down the lane too far before breaking!

HOW DOES ONE KNOW WHICH AXIS ROTATION ONE IS?



Well that's not hard.  First find your pap.  It's really not that hard.  Take a yellow or white grease pencil and trace the very first oil ring on your ball.
Yeah the one closest to your thumb and fingers.  Then look and put a piece of tape in the center of it.  

NOw throw the ball.  If when the ball first starts out is the tape stable, if yes you have found it.  If no move the tape around a little till when you throw the tape is initially still as the ball goes down the lane!  AHA now you've got it.

Now with a friend watching throw the ball again.  IN the first 30 feet where is the tape facing.  Facing to the lane next to you(righties to the left, lefties to the right).  Ah hah!  You are an up the backer.  Axis rotation much less than 45.

Or if you throw and the tape is sort of at the lane next to you and sort of back at you.  Well maybe even at a 45 degree angle in between you and the lane next to you, congratulations you are a perfect 45 degree roller!

Or if when you throw the tape faces right back at you, then you are a perfect 90 degree roller.  Lots of reaction lots of excitement and difficulty controlling your breakpoint are ahead for you!  My tape looks right back at me in the 65 to 75 degree direction.

That's all for today.

Tomorrow or soon some drillings that will ruin a ball for you!  Once one knows what to avoid, then it will lead us to what to do.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2004, 10:46:55 PM »

Thanks! And anxiously awaiting the next installment. I think rotation is going to be important for me. For some reason, a 2x5 layout or stacked leverage 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 always works well. Drills with a pin over fingers and CG kicked out, or even a 3 3/8 pin with CG moved righ (45* layout) just does nothing for me. I'm going to check my rotation and follow along closely.



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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2004, 11:08:51 PM »
So now we know the qualities of each of our bowlers, right?

Oh well quick review.
Up the backers, lots of roll can play oil well, have little reaction at back, and very good control of breakpoint, lots of speed.  Often looking to get thru the heads and try to buy balls that give then a reaction.  Note they don't need balls or drillings that supply midlane, they supply it!

Perfect 45 degree throwers.  These guys can master all conditions and use all drillings.

Side rollers, These guys have lots of skid in the heads, have slower speeds, have trouble controlling the breakpoint, and if they don't go thru the breakpoint they get lots of reaction.  These guys are looking for balls and drillings that create midlane and control of the breakpoint.  These guys maximize reaction.

So what type of balls do you think are usually chosen for these different bowlers.

Up the backers, in general balls that increase reaction, high differential balls often help them.

Perfect 45 throwers = anything that fits the condition they are on.

Side Rollers, = these guys are looking for balls that give them control of the midlane and maybe less differential of drillings that reduce differential and stabilize reaction a touch.

NOW let's talk about how to ruin a ball!!!!
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So often we see reviews here on ball reviews that say this ball is a
DUD, Columbia Sucks, Lane 1 sucks, Brunswick always rolls out for me!

Stuff like that!

Often that comes from the Extremes of balls, Bowling style(up the back or side roller), or drilling patterns.

Put all extremes of one type together and unless you've got an extreme condition you've got yourself one expensive dud!

EXTREME Example 1.

We are going to put together four, early roll elements together and see what we get.
1. An up the back bowler
2. A Very Strong coverstock and low rg high differential ball.
Our Vortex 2 Particle from above.
For your review. http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=1411
3. A strong early rolling drilling 10:30 or cg out with a weighthole on the PAP to make the ball go earlier and have less reaction.
4. A medium league condition.

Here we go, the perfect storm of how to RUIN a $200 dollar high performance ball.

First our up the backer gets this low rg, strong coverstock ball rolling very early in the heads,  Then we will put a 3 3/8 pin to pap postion for tons of flare(dry coverstock hitting a new track on the ball all the way down the lane), then we will kick out the cg to make the drilling a 10:30 ie 3 3/8 X 2, and then we will put a stability enhancing top weight reducing weighthole on the PAP.

What do you call this ball on an medium condition or even medium heavier!?  I call it Dead at 30 feet or DOA!

Remember our bowler doesn't need midlane help his style creates it.  In general he almost should never kick out the cg in the first place.  But now add this strong midlane core, this high flare, and this super strong coverstock and
this ball spells early early and early and dead!!  How often does one see that or hear it in your local alley regarding heavy oil balls.  

Is there a solution to this disaster?  Maybe, just maybe extreme polish.  More likely a sale is coming.  I think I hear a new super hooker comin my way for $40 over the Internet!

EXTREME Example #2.

I bet you can almost see this one comin!

Now we are going to take the exact opposite set of parameters and drill them up.

Now we are going to take a set of properties that mean length length length and combine them in to one expensive disaster.

1. We are going to take one of our classic side rollers near 90 degrees.  Remember his style provides very little control of the midlane and lots of skid!
2. We are going to grab off the shelf a high rg, high diff ball.
Maybe something like a Reaction Rip:  For your review:
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=84
Oh, by the way he purchases the much higher rg 15 pound version!
3. We are going to drill this ball with a drilling which supplies modest flare, and very little midlane(note this tall thin core supplies very little midlane due to its tall thin build with very little midruff). We will drill it with a 4 1/2 X 5 1/2.  This cg under grip will get the ball down the lane a long ways to the break point.
4. Now we are going to place the ball on the alley on some medium heavily oiled heads and a longer pattern that places control of the midlane at a premium.

What are we going to find in this case.  Though not as totally dissatisfying as example 1 above.  The balls reaction though late is going to be exciting once it hits dry.  Very exciting.  And some very exciting ringing 10 pins.  Because even though this ball will eventually break It is going to tend to do it late due to the bowlers side roll, pearlized cover and tall thin little midlane producing core!

So some bowlers may be able to force this syle and make it work by trying to throw faster than normal on a very tight line   most side rollers just can't produce the speed necessary to play the line tight enough to get this ball to hit. They are going to loop around the line and this setup calls for due to the fact that they usually have less speed.  In that case they are going to getting calls from the operator all day!  Ring ring ring said the 10 pin to the righty!
As theball goes deep ball after ball after ball before it finally turns the corner and appears to hit flush!  Nope 6 ringing 10 pins in a game is more than a coincidence.  It's bad physics at work!  Ring Ring Ring says the pin!  Get a clue!

More coming over the weekend.

Near wrapping up in the next several days!
Coming next drillings that work!

Edited on 1/17/2004 0:13 AM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

janderson

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2004, 02:09:26 PM »
This last post is very well done LL, and should emphasize one point very strongly to your audience: knowledge is key - make sure your shop pro or whoever is doing your drilling (and maybe your ball selection as well) for you understands how you throw the ball.  Otherwise, you may very well end up with a ball that isn't going to work well for you on 95% of the conditions you'll face.
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pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2004, 06:17:42 PM »

Great stuff... I'm looking forward to those drillings!
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pjr300
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pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2004, 11:48:01 AM »
Lucky Lefty, can I sneak in a question prior to the release of your next chapter?  

I'm a "up the backer" as you would say, but with more backend than most. On medium conditions, I'm successfully using a layout similar to the Brunswick 3e (polished particle with pin 3" out; pin way right at just 2 1/4" from PAP, CG in palm, no X-hole). This is a low flare drilling.

However, when the heads go and the lanes get dry, I can't get enough length. The more popular low flare drill, the pin over bridge layout, just doesn't work for me. The ball never seems to get into a roll, and just rotates end-over-end.

I've heard of a few people using a pin-in-track layout to get extra length. Would this work on a dry condition?  Or would you suggest another layout?

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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2004, 06:37:17 AM »
Alrighty then, got a little busy.

Back to the subject matter!

With a little digression.

"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?" music plays.

The title to a wonderful Christmas song.

Also what I think of when I see the frequent posts on coverstock, core, drilling, and weighthole tweaking procedures.  When people compare percentages I note two groups at the extreme and then others say well it is a blend!

To start with I think we can all agree with the following point.
1.  Surface controls the heads.
2. Drilling particularly core orientation controls the midlane
3. weighholes and core potential and FLIP BLOCKS control the backend!

HOWEVER:

1.  The UP the backer sees the lane different than the SIDE Roller and the Low tracker(very similar view of the lane as the side roller).
a. His release creates earlier friction in the heads his ball wants to start earlier,
b. his release creates midlane control, he doesn't need any help gaining control of the breakpoint(if he can get to it).  He doesn't need kicked out cg's to smooth, his breakpoint is smooth already!
c. His release does not generate backend, he often needs whatever help a core, pin position, flip blocks and weightholes will give him.

This is why often when these types of bowlers will often when asked about ball reaction will say surface is 70 to 90% of ball reaction it IS!, to THEM!

Examples.  Gregg Hoppe is a wonderful bowler on this site.  Go to his profile and one will see he plays up straight and wide, indicating an up the back release.  He believes SURFACE is next to everything.  FOR HIM it is!

A fine bowling fellow named Walter Ray Williams JR. used to confound the heck out of me.  One could go to his nice website.  www.WalterRay.com and try to find just about anything about drilling patterns, nada!  Yet one could always find comments like

"Walter wanted to use a harder shell ball." Or, "Walter liked this look but he'd noted the left lane was wetter than the right so he used two of (this weeks brand X) one was at 320 and the other 800".  "Walter was very fortunate and won this week".  Exasperating!  However what this tells you is that Walter Ray is an extreme up the backer for the tour, and drillings almost don't matter much.  Almost all his stuff is label(remember 1:30!, or near stacked, some variance in pin up).  Oh yeah this week he had his pin kicked way out, about 1/4 inch!!!  He HE.

A friend of mine is a multi Regional winner and his favorite saying is "Just throw the ball".  Not much reason to think anything else.  Basically all his success comes from label drills and some variance as to high high he puts his pins varies his backend potential. Anything cg out for him is basically in the bag for a few weeks then gone.  Just drill label, get the surface right, and "Just throw the ball".  Up the backer, you got that right!  

Put on your label leverage drill, get the surface right to handle the heads, raise or lower the pin to provide more backend, no worries about midlane(their up the back style guarantees midlane usually, and hope you've got enough backend to carry.  The life of an up the backer!

"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE", part II.

Now are SIDE ROLLER sees the lane quite differently.

Getting thru the heads is usually pretty easy.  His side roll decreases friction in the heads in relation to Mr. Up the backer.  Getting the ball to grab early enough is the problem, especially in the midlane.  Oh and if he's lefty even more of a problem as this shot typically breaks down later.

Then his backend is often if a dry spot to find angular and big, and sudden!!  Mine is!  As is the backend for most SIDEROLLERS!

Control of the midlane is paramount.  Often if these players are not quoting some source they've read these players are going to see the factors above listed this way.  Pin position and core orientation = 50%, surface 30% and backend factors, pin up pin down and weightholes near 20%.  Guess what they are right. This is how their ball reads the lane.  Late sharp and dramatically!

"DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?".

Guess what drillings are going to have to be carefully planned to control and often mute the backends for this style of bowler.  ALWAYS, no! But mostly, YES!

Now as promised some great workable drillings.

It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2004, 06:59:40 AM »
Up the backer drillings.

Unfortunately I can't offer a lot here!
As stated above the staple of the classic up the backer is the label or label leverage drilling.

All variations of 4 X 5, 3 3/8 X 5, 4 X 5 1/2. 4 X 4 1/4, 4 X 4 work for this bowler.  Or if one likes the degree system Drillings of 105 degrees thru about the very slight cg kick outs(for extremely long or wet midlanes) about 55 degrees work for this bowler!

If I didn't explain it before the angle between the pap to pin line and pap to cg or mass bias line is the angle measured.

It looks like this.

 

F F..P        
.....|....\
.....|....75....\
.....|<-degrees->....\.... |....................gc...cg.....................\PAP
.
.
.
.
.
T

Clear?

Stacked drillings are 75 degrees!
Mostly our up the back friend is going to be in the 90 degree area.  

A slight difference in reaction for him are pin outs.  Very often he will have a dullish or dull particle with a moderate pin out 2 to 3 or less for his fresh condition ball.  Oil in the heads with strong backends.

Like so.

0 0  P


gc  cg


0

Pin either level with ring finger or slightly down.  Almost always cg on grip center north south line or ABOVE it to give finger weight for more skid.

His second ball is then a much harder surface ball.  With the pin out of 4 to 5 like so.
     P
0 0


gc cg


0

This ball if placed with the pin out location so that the pin is 1 1/2 or 1 inch from the VAL will give this ball flip that he often needs as the shot breaksdown to get a little inside and still carry.  Note he will not usually be as inside as his stronger sideroll brethren, Mr. Perfect 45 and Mr. Too much side roll 80!  But this pin up and near VAL is often the trick to get him to carry on this broken down shot!  Oh yeah if he moves near stacked and adds an angled out weighhole that will help too if he needs more reaction on the back.

Unfortunately as www.walterray.com and Peggy Lee sings "if that's all there is my friend, then let's go surfacing", "let's put on a sheen or just some polish, I might like a sand tomorrow"  (music plays softly).  If your too young to remember this song well then I'm sorry!

Apply your favorite up the backer surface and be ready to change tomorrow!

Next drillings for our Side tracker!  He's a tempermental, and difficult tortured soul! <pre id=code><font face=courier size=2 id=code> [/code]

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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana