I cant believe we lost all that info from before 1/9/2004. Here is part of it (just so that it will be around a bit longer for those who missed it):
Sorry, it did not copy the seperations I had between postings and I never did put in the author or dates because I kept getting html script with it.
Edited to add: Remember that the following was posted right after Mumzie's post of 12/21/2003 9:39 PM and before LuckyLefty's at 1/9/2004 11:52 PM.
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mumzie -- If there is one site that has all the info available, I'd like to know where it is too. Until then, the site below has a lot of info in the "Mario's Secrets" section. Good luck -- JohnP
http://www.rollrite.co.uk/index.php this should make for some good reading.....
http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.htmlAs many of you guys know that is JeffMop from this site!
I hope he doesn't mind me letting that out!
Geez and I thought that I was knowledgeable on this stuff!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS and remembering that using these ideas is not completely a science but also an art to some extent! I have had balls that have had approximately similar specs and drilled them both with a mass bias say towards the VAL. One would turn enough and hit and the other won't quite get there. That second one required a slightly more stacked drilling to get the same turn.
In general there is no doubt that most balls today can turn the corner when drilled label leverage or stacked with a 3 inch pin to PAP or 4 inch pin to pap.
It is all the other drillings that may or may not work on a particular condition.
And how does one blend control with power for all the other less basic drillings and still maintain hit! It is a delicate balancing act that truly is an art combined with the post referenced.
Other important features are core shapes, specs, and flip blocks and their densities!
What I didn't say well is that JeffMop from this site compiled the site above!
I have a lot more to offer on this topic and some of it may be overkill and some is probably boring but if others are REALLY interested I can give a lot of insight I've developed after drilling about 75 balls for myself in the last one year and a half AND sometimes trying multiple drills and weight holes on some.
I think there is a lot to core shape (which can be seen) and densities (which can't be seen) but which can be seen in ball roll that are very important.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS if people are really REALLY interested I could post some excess over the top experiments and observations I've made!
PPS I could probably do something over the Holidays.
OK, I'm going to sort of go a section at a time!
I think the first place to start is with weight blocks.
Note pictures don't tell the entire story but they can tell a lot.
The hidden factors can be the density statistics particularly of the flip blocks.
Anyway lets start with a few core blocks.
OH, my plan is to go in this order.
1.Core blocks, 2.drillings for a certain reaction, and 3.differences of right vs. left balls. 4. Weight holes what I've found that works for me!
A picture can tell a story!
Here's two weight blocks at the extremes of reaction.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=84Yep the Reaction Rip, a king of high rg, skid flip, long down the lane big backend reaction.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=293Yep, the Storm Tour Power, the ultimate benchmark ball, very low rg, virtually no flip block (same density flip block), moderate differential. You can try to drill this ball to go long and flip and it ain't gonna happen. It can't go long and it can't flip!
The two balls above are polar opposites.
The Rip has a tall skinny weight block with sharp edges, dense flip blocks on the top and bottom. Conceptually I think of these balls as very tall book stands. Tall with books on the top shelf, these balls are very unstable and want to tip and tip hard toward the pocket. If you've seen this ball on the alleys that's how it acts. Not much early rev, very little midlane and then a sharp strong move to the hole.
The Tour Power on the other hand has rounded edges, a flip block that is no denser than center of the core and even when drilled stacked there is only one word to describe this weight block movement is smooth - not a jerk in sight and you can't make one. This ball can be drilled straight up, just decide how many boards you want to cover and it will arc on anything and will love oiled heads and strong running back ends. On carry down you’re going to probably be wishing that you could carry the corners. You can't!
Another even more extreme weight block is the weight block from the Columbia Scout Reactive.
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=97This ball has an even higher rg than the RIP and gets another few feet down the lanes and then flips like a banshee if dry can be found! This ball to get to roll early FUGHET ABOUT it!
Another in the LOW RG area but with some POP is for instance the Vortex 2 Particle.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=1411This ball has every facet in a bowling ball to make it strong in every phase of the lane, very low rg, dense flip blocks, some sharp edges, some good strong differential, and a lot of coverstock bite.
This ball has it in every phase of the lane, heads mids and backend is strong and powerful in every phase of the lane.
One last one is sort of a medium ball.
Or should I say medium Core.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=2&BallID=252This is the core for the Raging Red Fuze. This ball has almost all the same attributes of a strong core as the Vortex Particle above. The only difference is that this ball has a higher rg. It revs just a little less in the heads than the Vortex II. Note these fuze cores were very similar all thru the Fuze line - Fuze Detonator, Raging Red Fuze, Fuze Ignitor, Fuze Eliminator. The only differences between these cores were some density differences.
These cores are classic medium low rg cores, with strong midlanes, sharp edges on the weight block and strong backend.
Or as I call them, Churn em, burn em, turn em cores that will work on many of your wetter conditions particularly on synthetic lanes.
These are really the sets of cores to be familiar with.
OUR Extreme cores.
Super high RG:
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1.Reaction Rip, high rg = little rev in heads, skinny body = very little
midlane, dense flip blocks = lots of flip to the hole.
2.Columbia Scout R, super rg = all skid in heads, no body = almost no midlane a straight line to the breakpoint really, and good diff and dense flip blocks = tons of flip. Your goal with this ball is to control break point, will it be soon enough to hit!
SUPER LOW RG:
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3. Vortex Particle, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, dense flip blocks and good differential = lots of strong angular movement at the back. This ball is strong in EVERY phase of ball movement.
4. Tour Power, super low rg = all rev in the heads, round body = tons of midlane, NO dense flip blocks and moderately low differential = only backend that the lane gives it. To sum this ball up, strong heads, strong midlane, SMMMMOOOOOOOOTHH backend. Try to find a way to drill to create anything else with this ball!
Medium RG:
ALL Fuze balls except the Purple.
These balls have medium low rg, medium high differential, and angular edges. These balls churn in the medium heavy oil heads, start to burn in to the lane in the midlane, and good turn. Not in the top of the scale in any of these categories but on the stronger side of medium in every area.
One more example and this in the latest weight block technology going.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=11&BallID=394Yep the X factor Deuce.
These balls have medium low rg, medium angularity in the core shape, and extremely high rg and medium mass bias due to the different density vertical pucks lying next to each other.
These balls have good rev on medium heavy oil, good strong midlanes and backends that are out of this world and can generate a tremendous move even on carrydown on synthetic lanes. In general drillings on this ball will be normal and then a solution will have to be come up with to balance the backend potential to the bowlers style and plan of attack!
That's all for now!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS take a look at the pictures and read the densities and look at the flip blocks and see if some of this makes sense to all.
PPS I note many of you will be right with me on this and maybe way ahead of me!
Edited on 12/26/2003 5:09 PM
Mumzie:
quote:
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc. Is there one place to go that would have all the info?
Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects
This may not be "all" the info, but there's a heck of a lot. Probably more than you need if you're not drilling your own stuff.
www.bowlingcoach.com--------------------
Any resemblance to political correctness is purely coincidental, unintentional and probably a mistake on the part of the reader.
Admit nothing - deny everything - make counter accusations
Just took a quick cursory look at the information there and it looks voluminous!
I will get to it.
Anyway I've probably bored most to tears. Mine won't be that long, four or five total posts.
Oh, where did my information come from?
1. Revolutions 2
2. Mo Pinel See if, Feel it, Do It.
3. MoRich drill sheets.
4. Brunswick drilling sheets and Seven Popular drill layouts.
5. Gravity Balance system from Lane#1
6. Ebonite technical posts including weight hole item.
7. Core descriptions from
www.bowlingballreviews.com8. Denny Torgenson materials both purchased and read.
9. Mario of Rollrite UK, who uses a lot of Denny Torgenson concepts
10. Synthesis of all above by my pea brain.
11. Experiments on the lane and a very detailed sports eye.
Before I go any further I want to state I agree with much of what is in Revolutions 2 but I think that one must realize that at the time written Chip Zielke had primarily been with Brunswick and it is primarily an excellent compilation of Brunswick positions on drilling and theory.
What is below is my compilation of what I have found works and effects ball roll for me and from watching many other bowlers and their drillings.
Oh the question, why all of that core stuff above? Well I think it is important for a bowler to know if you have an extreme core, and if you do at one end of the spectrum are you? Or do you have a middle of the road type of core.
It is going to be important for one to understand that if they are at an extreme end of the spectrum. Which drillings and why are probably going to be good or bad for that ball.
For example The Vortex 2 particle above. This is an extreme ball.
Strongest coverstock, lowest rg, strong high differential with dense sharp edged flip blocks all leads to strength in all parts of the lane.
To place and early roll drilling and then add more flip with a weightblock may lead us to create a ball that can only be used once every two to three years!
The same with the opposite end of the spectrum Reaction Rip. To take this ball and drill it to go super long and flip might overemphasize the properties of this ball and get a skid flip reaction that always looks exciting but maybe might not match up very often to most lane conditions.
So onward to drilling configurations.
The most important spec in drilling is pin to pap distance!
The chart contained both in Revolutions 2 and in Mo Pinel's material is the following.
Pin to Pap distance.
0 no flare extremely early roll, lowest rg drilling
1 1/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core early roll drilling
2 1/4 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core EARLY roll drilling
3 3/8 inch = 100% of the core flare potentila, flare early mids and late.
4 1/2 inch = 2/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 3 3/8.
5 5/8 inch = 1/3 flare potential of the core later on the lane than the 4 1/2.
6 3/4 inch = 0 flare potential but pin is in the initial track, this is the highest rg drilling.
To elaborate a little on the extremes above. Chip Zielke in Revolutions 2 gives a great example of a weight block being like a rolling pin.
a pin on pap drilling or a 0 pin to pap distance is much like taking your rolling pin(weight block) laying it completely on its side and rolling it accross the floor(or lane in this case). The ball rolls much easier as whatever the low rg of the ball is the statistic you are now using.
Your rolling pin looks like this.
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxx|.............................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|..................................|
xxxxxxxxxxx|---------------------------|
Laying straight on its side. In the example of the Vortex 2 particle above if drilled like this the ball has an RG of 2.46 right now. It is using it's low RG or what is called it's X or horizontal coordinate. To measure the ability of the ball to roll. Also since the pin is completely stable there is no tendancy of the pin to migrate to a stable position therefore the flare is 0.
If we drill the Reaction Rip like this the ball will have an rg of 2.584.
Also with no flare potential.
Now lets say we stand both these cores, weight blocks, or rolling pins vertical balls up and place the pin 6 3/4 from the PAP. Now the weightblock is standing straight up. Vertical. The y coordinate or height now takes over. This ball will resist rolling compared to the other one with the rolling pin on its side.
After all the weight block is standing straight up.
The rolling pin looks like this.
....|
.|......|
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.|......|
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....|
In the examples given above The Vortex II particle is now rolling with an RG of
2.46 +.046 (differential,more on this later)= 2.506 rg. This is the highest rg drilling for this ball. Or the most resistant to rolling drilling for this ball.
For the reaction Rip this drilling will be 2.584. + .057 = 2.641.
This ball will resist rolling in comparison to it's low rg drilling of 2.584, it will also resist rolling quite a bit in relation to even the high rg drilling of the Vortex II particle.
As far as ability to roll the reaction rip when drilled staight up in the track, will have about the same rg as a scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap. In other words. A scout reactive when drilled 0 pin to pap will have an RG of 2.635 the Reaction Rip when drilled 6 3/4 will have an rg of 2.641.
One with the weightblock sideways, the other with the weightblock straight up!
Neither ball will flare! As there is no imbalance.
Now how do we create imbalance!
Well the easiest way is to create maximum imbalance!!! Let's put the pin about 1/2 of the way in between both stable positions.
3 3/8 from the PAP. This is 1/2 of the distance from stable on the PAP or 1/2 of the distance from stable in the track!
This ball when drilled like this is going to want to attempt to migrate towards stability!
(To be continued soon).
Lucky
Anyway
Edited on 12/27/2003 1:38 PM
So,
Now we've covered two aspects.
1.Cores, and what are the extremes of cores.
2. Weight blocks and possible pin positions. and two extreme pin positions both with no flare, pin on pap(earliest roll and lowest rg) and pin on track(latest roll and highest rg).
NOW common drilling techniques.
First move always is to select your pin position.
3 3/8 from the PAP is the strongest position for every ball and maximizes flare all the way down the lane. Because energy is being used in the early part of the lane this drilling may hook the most, but often doesn't appear it to the naked eye because the hook is ALL the way down the lane.
The MOST common pin position seen in most league conditions is either 4 or 4 1/2 inches from the PAP. This pin position works on most league conditons and is exciting to watch for most bowlers because it tends to give 2/3 of the flare potential of the ball but to preserve energy and flare to the later part of the lane!
So first I choose how many boards I want to cover. As a moderate handed person(about 15 revs and slower speed) it is rare that I use a 3 3/8 pin position.
It usually just covers too many boards and forces me to swing a lot of boards when often there is an easier way to play the lane, straighter up boards.
If I see most of the good players at a center only playing small swings at particular house I will usually go at least 3 3/4 or out to 4 1/2.
If I were a cranker I would use a different set of parameters say 4 1/4 out more to 5 3/4 for the typical house shot. If I were weaker handed these 3 3/8 drillings can work!
I'll come back to other pin positions in the next section but let's now talk about core orientation in relation to pin position.
Maximizing the weight block potential!
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When a weightblock is straight up or stacked in relation to one's pap. This maximizes the movement potential of the core. In other words a 4 X 4 drilling for me, a 5 X 5 a 3 3/4 X 3 3/4 are going to give me all the motion a weightblock can give at the break point. A concept I use in my mind is that I have a bookcase. If the bookcase is straight up. And let's say it has a lot of differential or potential instability. Maybe I've made it tall with a very narrow base. Maybe I've added a loaded with books top shelf(flip block).
AN example above that fit's this description was the reaction rip weight block.
Tall, (high rg y axis(or height), small base(much lower low rg(or x axis), and a high differential(tall and thin base) with a loaded top shelf(dense flip block), what do I get just like a tall thin book case with books only in the top shelf I create a situation where the bookcase(weightblock) is very instable(wants to tip), and can fall a long way(tall and thin remember), and will(we've loaded only the top shelf. What one gets in this Reaction Rip, ball is a dramatic sharp and late movement at the breakpoint if we place the book shelf straight up! Take a moment and go look at the picture referenced above!
If on the other hand I take a lower and wider book case. Say the Tour Power from above and stack it. And let's say we load all the shelfs, this book case is much more balanced, much more stable and evenly loaded. This book shelf does not have a tendancy to tip, and when it does it is not as tall and will fall more gradually and not as dramatically. Even if we stack it, take advantage of all of it's potential it will only fall or turn very smoothly and evenly.
Therefore, weightblocks positioned in a 12 oclock orientation or as Denny Torgenson calls it 75 degrees(pap to pin and pin to cg(mass bias) angle.
These will give one the maximum reaction at the break point from any given weightblock. Other weightblocks to check out to see that will NOT give dramatic reactions at the breakpoint even when stacked are the Columbia Pulse's, note the thicker middle and lack of dense flip blocks.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ballreview.asp?r=3934Or the Dynothane Remedy(stronger than the pulse but more midlane than backend.
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ball.asp?ballid=39Again see how weightblock shape determines shape on the lane.
Both of the above blocks are thick in the middle with not so prominent flip blocks. Both ball when drilled will have strongish midlanes and weaker backends, the Pulse even less than the Dynothane Remedy.
So anyway drilling a weightblock straight up give one all of the balls potential to what one would say come around the corner!!!! This means carry even from inside angles!
So a weightblock drilled straight up gives us all the ability of the ball to come around the corner or carry from inside!
WEightblock oriented like this.
12 Oclock
/ |
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Now everything depends on the balls potential, in the examples given above it is easy to see how the Ability to come around the corner would be rated like this:
MOst to least:
Reaction Rip
Vortex II Particle
Dynothane Remedy (not a lot)
Tour Power(almost none)
Pulse(Virtually none except for the heaviest handed on flying backends).
None of this means a ball is BAD. It only means that one ball is a driver and another ball is a wedge. Each tool has it's place!
CORE POSITION # 2.
10:30.
10:30 12:00
a|a-a--a---a----a-----a------a----
This core position decreases the potential of the ball.
typical notation for this layout is something like 4 X 3, 4 X 2 1/2, 5 X 3 1/2.
First notation in a 4 X 3 say 4 is pin to pap distance, second say 3 is cg to PAP.
Having trouble illustrating 10:30 weightblock, to be continued!!!
Edited on 12/31/2003 7:39 AM
Interesting stuff.
Why, o why? do I feel so many tangential philosophical questions coming on? Tell me to take these to another thread if appropriate.
- Generally speaking, do you like the idea of drilling a ball at one of the extremes to fit its personality or to mellow it?
Example: letting the Rip be what it wants to be by stacking it over bridge vs. rounding off the breakpoint a little by putting the CG out?
Some things in the middle don't care. Example: you could do nearly anything to a Tour Power and have a playable ball. Other things in the middle seem to tell you exactly what they want. Examples: I always thought the original black Spirit would come alive in a 4 x 2. Right now, I think Hot Wire would be even better for me in 1:30.
My thinking on this is confused by all the examples and counterexamples I've seen. I guess I'd have to say "mellow it". I do a lot better with pearls when they are smoothed off a little. I think a Rip stacked would be awful to try to play. OTOH, I once tried to fight a ball's nature by drilling a RevMaster high RG, thought it had an awful reaction.
- On the general subject of matching up drillings to preferred line, I had heard the adage: label to play down and in, stacked to play the oil line, 10:30 to swing. I have examples and counterexamples. Any thoughts on this?
OK, Been crazy lately and have a little more time to put a little more here.
10:30 drilling For drawings coming later I designate this to be a CG towards PAP drilling.
Well don't seem to be able to easily dry a picture but this is a drilling where the cg is kicked out towards one's pap. In relation to the pin. Or a line from the bottom of the weightblock towards the pin points to 10:30 on a clock.
For the more elegant stylist amongst us(lefties) this drilling is called a 1:30.
The effect of all these drilling is to reduce potential! I like to think of it again with the bookcase example above as the bookcase is starting out already partially fallen. It it was a 6 shelf bookcase it now is only a 4shelf bookcase and cannot fall as far. In addition the weightblock instead of being straight up is laying on its side and is approaching being perpindicular to ones' track. NATURALLY this drilling will roll earlier than a stacked(even if pin position is the same pin to pap distance).
Therefore, two drillings with the same pin to pap say 4 1/4 and both on the same ball, the 10:30 drilling will rev sooner(weightblock is laying sideways), and move earlier and actually look like it rounds the corner earlier(it does), but then when it makes it final move it will just roll to the hole. The move is less angular to the hole than the stacked drilling. Called hook set!
This drilling is fantastic for lefties(heavier head oil with stronger backends often), fresh conditions(heavy head oil with strongish backends) and spinners and low trackers(to get the ball rolling earlier) not so skiddy which their action tends to cause. It is also good for bowlers with strong axis rotation if backends are strong enough. Another name for this drilling is hook set!
This type of drilling is usually garbage for up the back type players(rolls too early) and high trackers without a lot of axis rotation. Too much energy burn!
The problem with this drilling is carry or getting enough reaction.
Often one will be able to tell very quickly with this drilling whether it is going to carry or if it is going to leave weak corner pin leaves right away.
See that pin in the channel in front of your 10 pins righies? OR see the 4 pin in front of the 7 pin lefties. If you've got this ball, and you throw a couple of these in practice put this ball in the bag quick! You need a drilling that is going to get you higher on the head pin. You see the nature of the drilling because of the rolly backend or hook set action is to bring one in a little lighter on the headpin.
This is a drilling that has worked fantastic for me.
How to tell if it is going to win, er work!
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This ball setup I actually used in a great moment for me. Situation, big tournament, on the lanes with some of the biggest winners in our area. All with recent 800s and multitournament wins to boot. Condition wet heads and big fresh stripped backends.
All start hitting the pocket easy, I notice other bowlers getting either tremendous carry and then followed by a split, like a 4 9. Each has to move quickly even in practice and also throw hard to mute reaction at the back.
Grab this hook set ball and spend all day creaping up low on the head pin with tremendous mix. Light will carry all day when the backends are flying like this! Surrounding greats all bowl well but average about two splits a game using stacked and label drillings. Which are getting higher on the head pin.
SUMMARY on the 10:30 or 45 degree drilling.
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This drilling will go earlier and finish less than one's stacked drilling. It will finish lower on the head pin and the first sign of it taking out too much of the energy of your core is weak corner pin pinging. One can actually take and use this drilling all day and hit the pocket and never really carry and say, "What happened, I couldn't miss!".
VARIATIONS on a theme
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In general players with under 30 degrees axis rotation will not have much use for these drillings, they use up enough energy in the heads on their own and just usually can't carry with these drillings hardly at all!
The variation above called a 45degree driling. The more the cg out the less the degree. ie a cg out about 2 inches from stacked is called a 30 degree drilling then a 25 degree drilling then finally cg on the pin to pap drilling is called a 0 degeree drilling or axis leverage drilling. Each reduction in degree from stacked or what is called a 75 degree drilling is anincrease in the hook set effect. Making the ball roll and set earlier and finish with less less and less!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS more to come.
Edited on 1/13/2004 7:58 AM
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I just want 2C was'zzub.
____________________________________
I am the SGT Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing!"
Edited on 5/8/2004 0:44 AM
