BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: cav on October 03, 2014, 06:53:57 AM
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tell me
Cav
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It doesn't affect the ball. All of the balls specs are the same as ones with a 4" pin. (RG DIF Int DIF)
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No difference in roll?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I've heard it makes the ball more rolly.
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don't mean to thread hi-jack ::)
.... but what about +/- .5" - 1" Pin to PAP?
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I've heard it makes the ball more rolly.
the pin length doesn't affect the motion in this situation. It is where you usually have to put the pin to keep the ball statically legal. With a .5 to 1 inch pin ball you are going to have to put the pin below the fingers and close to the center grip.. This is what makes the ball more rolly.
.5 - 1 inch pin to pap. This would put the ball in a low RG drill. A symmetrical ball will not have much flare. Also, in a symmetrical, the pin / core might lock onto the PAP early on the lane and might not provide much movement down lane. Depends on the ball surface and the amount of friction on the lane.
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It doesn't effect the reaction...it is based off the true center of the mass...to create a 1" pin out, the core is shifted 1/32" from the true center of the mass...so on a 15lb bowling ball (240 ounces) one side of the bowling is 119 31/32" vs 120 1/32".....
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So those of you who say it doesn't affect ball motion. Punch up a 1" pin ball, ....oh wait you won't "willingly" and you won't carry either.
Post a video too. I have seen 1inch pin balls roll...and they roll terribly.
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I would love to see someone drill 3 balls, all with the same layout and balance holes to keep the balls as statically similar as possible. A 1 inch, 3 inch, and 5 inch pin. That way this cgnomaddah deal can be put to rest.
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So those of you who say it doesn't affect ball motion. Punch up a 1" pin ball, ....oh wait you won't "willingly" and you won't carry either.
Post a video too. I have seen 1inch pin balls roll...and they roll terribly.
I'll take that challenge! I had a bandit 2 that had a 1 inch pin. Pin under my middle finger (5.5 inches from pap) and the ball was awesome!
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People that make certain statements are why most ball motion mentality is antiquated...too many base false statements on their perception not taking into account what REALLY creates motion and reaction
Plain and simple
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People that make certain statements are why most ball motion mentality is antiquated...too many base false statements on their perception not taking into account what REALLY creates motion and reaction
Plain and simple
This has been another episode of Real Talk with JustRico
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I do not disagree with anyone. After all, I'm sure more of you have drilled more equipment than I have. I was just mentioning how someone told me it had an influence on length.
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Surface effects length
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Wait wait wait.....wait.....wait.
So we have people saying that if we take all of the best and greatest bowling balls out there and weed through them to find one with a 0-1" pin and drill it up on one of our favorite layouts that all of the technology in core and converstock development will be negated by the fact that the cg and pin are too close?
Please tell me this is a joke.... please don't make me lose faith in mankind and what is referred to as common sense.
Hell even my spare ball rolls great with a 0" pin.
So curious what about 1-2" or 2-3" or 3-4" ????? Does that mean 5" pin balls are the best and have maximum length and maximum backend because its the opposite of a 0-1" pin?
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I have a one inch pin melee, and it has become my favorite ball in some time. When I picked it up at first I was really concerned, but after I used it the worry was gone.
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Kidlost, why do you think they call Propins "propins"? They're cheater balls. #proscheat #notcool
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Because instead of calling them 2nds and blems bowlingball.com figured out how to make bowlers pay more for 2nd quality product. #increasedprofits #consumerfail
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Kidlost, why do you think they call Propins "propins"? They're cheater balls. #proscheat #notcool
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Doom, why do you think they call reactive balls "Reactive"? They're ALL cheater balls.
#everybodiescheating #potcallingkettleblack
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My sarcasm font seemingly didn't show up. :)
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This is the first and last time I'm weighing in on the CG stuff. If it didn't matter (the CG) why is it marked on practically every bowling ball? To me, its apparent, it matters to the ball companies enough to mark them.
Only reasonable replies please, no condescending remarks, no sarcasm, and no videos of someone standing on top of dirt hitting up on plastic to convey their point, thanks much.
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Remember when 2nds use to be cheap cheap because they didn't have the manufactures name and logo on them? Just Hurricane, or Legacy, or Bonanza. You had to guess what the ball may be based on color. Then they started putting all of the logos on there along with an X and the price went from $25 or so a ball to $50-70.
Then Rotogrip/Storm and bowlingball.com started calling them pro pins and procgs depending on the blems type and actually started selling them at $10 less to $10 above the cost of a first quantity ball which was hilarious. Still many manufactures continued calling them 2nds and blems and their price stayed around 30-40% below the cost of first quality ball.
Yes there marketing idea was "pros" loved them because they could do real unique/"exotic" layouts ect ect. Yes when a ball has a cg 3-4" out of line between the pin and mb you could get some great layouts alright. Or better yet having a ball with a 5-12" pin is great too. Really unique reaction......oh wait no it doesn't. Well it sounds great and I am sure joe bowler will buy it.
The only unique thing was in some cases you ended up putting things in places to make it legal you normally wouldn't do because you had no other options and hopefully the ball would still roll great because of everything else that factored in.
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This is the first and last time I'm weighing in on the CG stuff. If it didn't matter (the CG) why is it marked on practically every bowling ball? To me, its apparent, it matters to the ball companies enough to mark them.
Only reasonable replies please, no condescending remarks, no sarcasm, and no videos of someone standing on top of dirt hitting up on plastic to convey their point, thanks much.
It marks static weight. If you do not mark it you have to find it before drilling other wise you will have a lot of illegal bowling balls by USBC rules. I can throw that plastic ball on anyones house shot. Don't think it wont strike.
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First of all I was unaware that there were rules when responding to a post...so in other words, only responses that strengthen my point and no one else's?
Center of gravity is a mark on the ball and is in regards to static weight rules...now if you wish to discount the scientific proof that CGs are about as relevant as floor mats in a vehicle, that's your prerogative but your post can be as condescending as any due to your views...a pin out or top weight is created by a manual shift of the core in regards to the true center of the mass...plain & simple
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So lets just remove CG markings from the ball, I mean, they don't matter anyway right?
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Aa long as its a USBC rule they are necessary guess you missed that part
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If the USBC only weighs bowling balls at one tournament for static weights you can argue that the static weight rule does not exits for most bowlers.
If you have 2oz side weight in a ball no one would know other wise.
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My question to you, kidlost, is this...
Why isn't that Code a 15? :P
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The guy im selling it for has more 14 stuff then 15.
Several hard to find 14 actually. Does me no good.
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If the USBC only weighs bowling balls at one tournament for static weights you can argue that the static weight rule does not exits for most bowlers.
If you have 2oz side weight in a ball no one would know other wise.
Just like you could argue it matters if for nothing more than static weights.
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I would love to see someone drill 3 balls, all with the same layout and balance holes to keep the balls as statically similar as possible. A 1 inch, 3 inch, and 5 inch pin. That way this cgnomaddah deal can be put to rest.
As long as the balls are the same weight and are drilled exactly the same with the same size and positioned weight hole.. that would be the test.. Once you start changing the position and size of the weight holes to make the balls the same statically, then you are going to be changing the dynamics of the core and changing the reaction.
There is a way to settle the argument. If they threw a ball without holes with the throwbot, that would solve the issue.
example.. take a symmetrical ball with no holes and set it up to throw in the "throwbot". Put the pin 5" from the pap and put the CG on the track 4 inches above the "would be" center of grip.. throw the ball.. now with the pin still at 5" from the PAP put the cg on the track 4" below the "would be" center grip.. there you would have two completely different static weights but I'm pretty sure the balls are going to react exactly the same.
It is the holes in the ball that effects the reaction... Not the position of the static weights. finger and thumb weight do not make a difference on the reaction. Side weight does have some influence but according to the USBC study it doesn't have enough influence to matter for the reaction. The covers, asymmetry in the cores and amount of flare have more of an influence and overpower any influence of the side weight.
An extreme amount of side weight may have an influence.. I shouldn't even say side weight, as this is defined by the center of the grip.. You can have the center of gravity at center grip and it would still be to the right of the track.
see below..I don't know the validity of this experiment as all of the other videos by this guy are pretty sketchy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytCt9TtTmI4
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So those of you who say it doesn't affect ball motion. Punch up a 1" pin ball, ....oh wait you won't "willingly" and you won't carry either.
Post a video too. I have seen 1inch pin balls roll...and they roll terribly.
I have and loved it.. A 1 inch pin 900 global creature.. put the pin at center grip.. ball did exactly what I wanted.. super smooth with no over reaction.
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I had it punched up yesterday and will post what the reaction is. BTW, several ball drillers told me (judging by the pin distance to cg)" This ball is no good, wont do anything.....you wasted your money." And several others said, " Ball is fine, cg has little to NO effect.". I will let you know within a few weeks. ;D
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I had it punched up yesterday and will post what the reaction is. BTW, several ball drillers told me (judging by the pin distance to cg)" This ball is no good, wont do anything.....you wasted your money." And several others said, " Ball is fine, cg has little to NO effect.". I will let you know within a few weeks. ;D
Let us know. I have always been skeptical with short pins. I wish you success!
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Ball: Protocol
Maker: Global!
Weight: 15.2
Me: Stroker, 230 revs, 15-16 mph
Pin is .5 inches from the cg!
Drill: Pin and cg is 1 inch right of ring finger! No surface change, no weight hole. Weird looking, my track area is over much of the balls graphic labeling surface!
Price: 159 retail.....me? 68$ off of face book
Ball driller One opinion: Will never hook. Use it as a spare ball.
Ball driller Two opinion: Worse than bad, throw it away!
Ball driller 3 opinion: Will work, ball driller has to have some knowledge. Should work just as normal pin ball.
Manufacturer engineer: Ball will work. Make sure you drill pin right of ring finger or roll over finger hole might be in your future. Ball is fine.
My thoughts: Will graphic surface letters affect ball roll? Will ball roll out too soon? Will ball skate like some suggest and not hook?
Experiment 1#
Lane: Normal med/high oil house shot after 2 leagues. Carry down and lighter oil is present. Can see some oil on ball but not much. 3 games
Result: Ball hooks more than my pin down hyroad. Ball seems to be controllable and hits pins hard. Carry down has little to no effect. If I was right of target, ball came roaring back....nice mix of pins. No skating effect. Highlights: 11 strikes in a row (over 2 games) for a 190 avg bowler. End up going about 25 pins over average per game. 3 splits (my error :-\)
Thoughts: Somewhat surprising. Ball reacted nicely and acted much like a strongly drilled high end ball. SO far, great.
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Wow any driller that says what most did in reference to the pin to cg distance is actually sad. Pin to pap options would be my only concern for drilling options along with the balls top weight.
If short pin to cgs kills all of the balls technology wouldn't one conclude that longer pin to cg distances must increase everything???
Lets be honest probably 90% plus short pin balls are drilled pin down below the bowlers ring finger. Depending on top weight there are other options. Glad to see you weren't mislead by opinions and got a great ball for a great price.
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A majority of 'bad' ball reaction is due to outdated ball motion mentality...pin to CG distance merely dictates drilling options under current USBC regulations...not actual ball reaction
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Kid,
Just to clarify. It sounds like you are saying you have put some pin in balls .5 to 1 inch pin out balls with pins above the fingers?
Could you elaborate on those experiments?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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1" pins with low top weights I have drilled pin up. They roll just the same as anything else. The Crux hole is also an option for a flare increasing weight hole location.
Also remember the pba plastic ball layout is perfect for short pin balls like that as well.
The pin marks the top of the core. Just because the cg is located there doesn't mean the core has changed. As Rico as stated many times it only means the core is shifted a fraction of an inch to create the heavy spot.
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Kid,
Some more requests for elaboration.
Talk a little about the adjustments you made on the short pin ball to get to static if you will?
Do you also have a video? Maybe of that ball in action?
Tell me more about the Crux hole or maybe a link to descriptions, please. Another link request is to the Plastic ball drilling. I think that is from Mo, but a convenient link would be great!
Thanks.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I'm guessing that short pins might limit the type of drillings possible. Am I correct?
Cav
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Cav,
A little confused... Protocol is a 900 Global product, not Roto Grip. Could you double check the ball and company?
(I've always wanted a Protocol...)
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Cav,
A little confused... Protocol is a 900 Global product, not Roto Grip. Could you double check the ball and company?
(I've always wanted a Protocol...)
Sorry I.D.,
You are correct. BTW nice color on the protocol.....Tonight is league night.....Med-Heavy oil....will get more info then.
Cav
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Kid,
Some more requests for elaboration.
Talk a little about the adjustments you made on the short pin ball to get to static if you will?
Do you also have a video? Maybe of that ball in action?
Tell me more about the Crux hole or maybe a link to descriptions, please. Another link request is to the Plastic ball drilling. I think that is from Mo, but a convenient link would be great!
Thanks.
Regards,
Luckylefty
LL Im on my phone so you will have to use google and youtube to find the info on the pba plastic ball layout and the crux hole. Ive posted on the crux hole both here and bowlingchat.
To get the correct statics depends on intial top weight and bowlers span. For me it was 1.5ozs top weight and drilling the fingers a little deeper and the thumb a little shallower to not need a weight hole. I do not use finger inserts. You can always add a weight hole near the fingers to help get the statics correct if over on finger weight.
That is all that is required. No magic surface or anything like that. Just use your common sense and a scale and weight the ball before drilling to see where you sit on finger weight/thumb weight and if you can get it within USBC guidelines or not.
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Kid,
Great. I appreciate the answers.... They are similar to what I expected as to how to make these short pinners pin up balls.
And you found it more responsive due to the shorter Pin to Val distance than what you expected compared to its pin down twin of the same ball?
What ball was it out of curiosity?
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I have seen the Plastic ball drilling before it might be in my bowling folder, I have not heard about Crux weighthole, however.
Is there a reason the Crux needs a different weighthole than others? Is that the Crux of the matter?
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Cav,
A little confused... Protocol is a 900 Global product, not Roto Grip. Could you double check the ball and company?
(I've always wanted a Protocol...)
Sorry I.D.,
You are correct. BTW nice color on the protocol.....Tonight is league night.....Med-Heavy oil....will get more info then.
Cav
Protocol is sneaky strong. S70 is strong enough for most league shots, and that CFT core rolls like a champ. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised, cav.
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Kid,
Great. I appreciate the answers.... They are similar to what I expected as to how to make these short pinners pin up balls.
And you found it more responsive due to the shorter Pin to Val distance than what you expected compared to its pin down twin of the same ball?
What ball was it out of curiosity?
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I have seen the Plastic ball drilling before it might be in my bowling folder, I have not heard about Crux weighthole, however.
Is there a reason the Crux needs a different weighthole than others? Is that the Crux of the matter?
I've not done many side by side if any recently that I remember of pin up versus pin down drilling on the same ball. I typically find pin up to be more aggressive later then pin down. Pin down usuallys is more controallable for me, especially with more aggressive bowling balls, or fresh backends. It depends on the ball, and the reaction I am looking for on a condition.
The Crux hole has nothing to do with the new ball. It is in reference to the location being centered on the bowlers grip, or slightly below grip center.
As far as pin up/pin down this has been my experience in terms of ball reaction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih45VXg8tP8
Crux hole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrReZOPYdt8
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LL -- The PBA plastic ball layout is in the wiki on bowlingchat.net, I've given you the link to the layouts index page because there are other layouts there you may enjoy looking at. The plastic ball layout is under Specialty Layouts. -- JohnP
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts
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Good link JP I forgot about that.
Funny story. I have always known the layout as the "Wiseman pattern" after PBA player Danny Wiseman from back in his days with Hammer and of course the guy working there by the name of Mo Pinel.
I got the chance to email Wiseman about it prior to the PBA plastic ball tourney years ago and he gave me some info on it that I couldn't quiet remember about the weight hole location ect. Many things aren't always new, just sometimes forgotten. I thought it was very cool.
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Kid and JohnP,
Thanks for the great informative posts!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Curious where is the limit in everyone's opinion on what is too close a pin to cg to make it a dud???
Trying to find a ball to test and I have a Columbia Jazz that is listed 1-2" and shows 2" exact.
Does this work or is it too long to be a dud?
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Pin in and 4+oz of top.
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So is that a no?
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It's too long to be a dud.
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Going to have to go up to 16lbs but have a Track Revmaster with a 0-1" pin and 3.5 top weight. Surely this 2002 ball with such a short pin must be a dud???
Should I expect it to be a spare ball as mention by others? Just throw it away maybe?
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I believe that you are confusing "dud" with "weaker." A ball with a half inch pin compared to the same ball with a 4 inch pin will yield a different motion with the same layout. Don't believe me? Take any full cored ball with these pin specs, 5x5, which should not need a hole in either ball depending on your pap (I don't need a hole at 5x1^). The 1 inch pin ball will be longer and smoother and the 4 inch pin ball will Rev sooner and be more continous. I have tested this myself on the original Break about 5 years ago. I had to drill the fingers deeper, after the initial drill, to get the ball to sniff the breakpoint before 50 feet. The cg matters due to static weights, legal or not. You can go from 2 oz finger weight to 2 oz thumb weight with the same layout, based upon pin to cg distance. And yes, they each roll different.
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Ball: Protocol
Maker: Global!
Weight: 15.2
Me: Stroker, 230 revs, 15-16 mph
Pin is .5 inches from the cg!
Drill: Pin and cg is 1 inch right of ring finger! No surface change, no weight hole. Weird looking, my track area is over much of the balls graphic labeling surface!
Price: 159 retail.....me? 68$ off of face book
Ball driller One opinion: Will never hook. Use it as a spare ball.
Ball driller Two opinion: Worse than bad, throw it away!
Ball driller 3 opinion: Will work, ball driller has to have some knowledge. Should work just as normal pin ball.
Manufacturer engineer: Ball will work. Make sure you drill pin right of ring finger or roll over finger hole might be in your future. Ball is fine.
My thoughts: Will graphic surface letters affect ball roll? Will ball roll out too soon? Will ball skate like some suggest and not hook?
Experiment 1#
Lane: Normal med/high oil house shot after 2 leagues. Carry down and lighter oil is present. Can see some oil on ball but not much. 3 games
Result: Ball hooks more than my pin down hyroad. Ball seems to be controllable and hits pins hard. Carry down has little to no effect. If I was right of target, ball came roaring back....nice mix of pins. No skating effect. Highlights: 11 strikes in a row (over 2 games) for a 190 avg bowler. End up going about 25 pins over average per game. 3 splits (my error :-\)
Thoughts: Somewhat surprising. Ball reacted nicely and acted much like a strongly drilled high end ball. SO far, great.
TKKshop
Based off of what other drillers told this customer along with some other post on here I don't think I misunderstood anything in terms of apparent common thoughts of proshop "drillers" in reference to short pin balls.
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I was referencing the people on this board as opposed to a couple of nameless shop drillers in a review. I believe the point is, a 1 inch pin ball will hook less than the same ball and layout using a 4 inch pin. This is my experience with such factors. Now I have never called any ball a "dud." As you have to match up the bowler, ball, and then layout to the conditions that they are requesting the second two parts to.
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I'll still be punching my 3" pin outs, there is nothing you can do to change that! :)
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Hello all,
Have used the protocol with pin near CG for awhile. Ball is great, I'm averaging about 10 pins over my normal with the protocol. On my lanes (26ml) I throw it between 6-8 board, and it makes a nice curve toward the pocket. For me, it works just as well as a normal ball.
Cav