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Author Topic: Layout and hand position question  (Read 5553 times)

lefty50

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Layout and hand position question
« on: October 14, 2019, 09:34:29 AM »
Apologies in advance if I'm not phrasing this question appropriately.

I understand the effects of changing hand position, which I believe to be related to changing the position of the core at release. I have one ball where changing hand position is more than hugely dramatic, it's like an on/off switch. Never seen anything affected nearly this much, although I rarely throw asym.... With a slightly less than 45 degree release, it's not straight, but I surely need to point up. If I release it at much closer to 90, it goes 35-40 feet and then really hard right (left handed). This is the reaction I wanted the ball to fill, but 90 degree release is definitely my B game. It brings up the question.....

I would logically assume that I could change the layout so that the core position of my 90 release is the core position of my 30-40 degree release.... Yes? Any thoughts on how to approximately measure the necessary change?

Thanks in advance

 

Impending Doom

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2019, 11:09:30 AM »
What's the ball and layout?

lefty50

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 12:04:19 PM »
Doom, I'll post that, but was avoiding it since it has the tendency to degrade a theoretical principles discussion into something else. Ball type doesn't really matter the way I'm thinking of this. But since it's you.... :) The ball is a Statement Solid, left hand, PAP of 4-1/4 by 1 up, with the pin currently 1-1/2 inches above ring finger and MB in the thumb.

Impending Doom

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2019, 03:06:48 PM »
Well, shucks! I'm flattered!

One, the ball does matter because a big dull solid assym isn't going to read friction the same way as a highly polished pearl.

Now onto the ball. Without the measurements, I'm only guessing. The ball may be laid out about 80*4*30. Seeing it's a low rg high diff solid, drilling it that way (with the MB drilled out, thus making it more continuous, and the high faster response big flaring pin placement, it would probably kill on sport shots, but be hard to use on house shots.

Depending on what you were looking for, especially with you being a lefty, which means less traffic and less track on your side, I would have either kept the pin where it is and put the mass bias at about 55 degrees to get it to read the pattern a bit smoother, or gone with a longer pin to pap (5 inches maybe) and Gone 65 with the mass bias to get the ball to go forward more off the pattern.

Do you have anything else drilled like that?

milorafferty

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 04:48:55 PM »
So are you going to have a ball drilled specifically for each hand position you need?

I think I would just practice the "B" game.
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lefty50

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 05:23:33 PM »
This is exactly why I don't post specifics and instead ask a theoretical question. Sigh... Maybe I worded the question poorly.... Obviously the hand position impacts the layout. Is it possible to gauge the difference in the layout from hand position A to hand position B? Particularly for someone with taped fingers and B position being a very painful release, I'd really prefer to modify the layout if possible....

Steven

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 05:44:16 PM »
This is exactly why I don't post specifics and instead ask a theoretical question. Sigh... Maybe I worded the question poorly.... Obviously the hand position impacts the layout. Is it possible to gauge the difference in the layout from hand position A to hand position B? Particularly for someone with taped fingers and B position being a very painful release, I'd really prefer to modify the layout if possible....

 
Actually, not a much as you think.

Don't over think things. Keep your layouts simple. Go with whatever rolls well for you most of the time and adjust surface based on oil volume.
 
I'm a ball whore and have dozens of balls drilled with different layouts trying to find the holly grail of ball motion. Save your money -- it doesn't exist. Again, keep things simple. Go with your favorite versatile drill and keep an arsenal of different strength balls to attack different situations.

You've struggled for years trying to find the perfect answer to your low revs that doesn't exist. Simplicity is the final answer.

lefty50

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 05:48:54 PM »
Actually, since I'm bowling better than any time of my life, I'm pretty certain that educating myself on the more technical aspects has paid big dividends, but thanks for the feedback... IT would be nice to bowl smarter by understanding the delta that can be applied to ease the pain, but it may be beyond what this group can answer, and that's ok......

Impending Doom

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 08:41:26 PM »
Come on guys, we've all had bowling balls that were super sensitive to release variations.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 07:13:35 AM »
There isn't a layout that is going to change backend reaction to make 45 degrees of axis rotation react like 90 degrees.  You're looking for the unicorn. 

Juggernaut

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 09:45:44 PM »
More than 300 balls in, I can say for sure, the “miracle magic ball” doesn’t exist.

 And lefty, while it is possible to orient the core like you are asking, it will not have the same effect as actually doing it with your hand release.

 Remember, the coverstock against the lane surface (FRICTION) is, by FAR, the biggest factor in ball reaction. Watched a high rev guy throw a leverage weighted pearl Scout on a short pattern with flying backends, and you couldn’t tell it wasn’t a high end, $250 ball. Packing ten back, and slinging messengers like crazy. Shot a small 800 with it that set, and took home lots of peoples money that day.
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 10:31:06 PM »
Scout with positive side weight is an amazing ball on the right conditions.  There is a reason why Superflex with pancake has been around for 20 years.  Didn't hesitate to recently snag one to store away in case don't see it available again any time soon.
Here today.  Gone tomorrow.

joedi

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2021, 06:49:41 AM »
A good question.

Very theoretical:
To change the layout effect of the ball by hand position you had to change your PAP.
The holes are drilled into the ball, so the ball will hardly change its layout. But as all the layout is in relation to you PAP, a change of the PAP would change the effect of the applied layout.

Frankly speaking I have no idea if you can change the PAP a lot with different hand positions.
So I cannot answer your question without knowing if you can change your PAP.


Anyway, what more likely changes are axis rotation, axis tilt, speed and revs.

I am personally struggling a lot on dry lanes with too strong balls. When the ball does not do as expected it often means that I had to change to a weaker ball. Worst case to my spare ball if nothing else in my bag.

If you throw a strong ball on dry lanes with low axis tilt and small axis rotation it will roll very soon, burn up energy and go kind of straight. This might look like a weak layout.
Same ball with 90° axis rotation may go longer and then finally convert all the rotation energy out of a sudden into a strong hook - often over hooking. This might look like a strong layout.

Why can a ball go longer with 90° axis rotation? Slide friction decreases as higher the difference of speeds is. If the ball moves down the lane it has less relative movement between ball and lane if the rotation is in the direction of the lane (low axis rotation), so having more slide friction. Opposite effect for high axis rotation.
This effect is stronger with higher rev rates.

Jesse James

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Re: Layout and hand position question
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2021, 09:26:44 AM »
A good question.

Very theoretical:
To change the layout effect of the ball by hand position you had to change your PAP.
The holes are drilled into the ball, so the ball will hardly change its layout. But as all the layout is in relation to you PAP, a change of the PAP would change the effect of the applied layout.

Frankly speaking I have no idea if you can change the PAP a lot with different hand positions.
So I cannot answer your question without knowing if you can change your PAP.


Anyway, what more likely changes are axis rotation, axis tilt, speed and revs.

I am personally struggling a lot on dry lanes with too strong balls. When the ball does not do as expected it often means that I had to change to a weaker ball. Worst case to my spare ball if nothing else in my bag.

If you throw a strong ball on dry lanes with low axis tilt and small axis rotation it will roll very soon, burn up energy and go kind of straight. This might look like a weak layout.
Same ball with 90° axis rotation may go longer and then finally convert all the rotation energy out of a sudden into a strong hook - often over hooking. This might look like a strong layout.

Why can a ball go longer with 90° axis rotation? Slide friction decreases as higher the difference of speeds is. If the ball moves down the lane it has less relative movement between ball and lane if the rotation is in the direction of the lane (low axis rotation), so having more slide friction. Opposite effect for high axis rotation.
This effect is stronger with higher rev rates.

Not meaning to deviate from the original poster's question but answering yours......YES! Indeed you do change your PAP with severe hand position changes. I found that out from my PSO after using a 90* release for an entire season one year.
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