Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 8863 times)

bowlerstyle · « **on:** February 01, 2004, 11:59:46 PM »

ok say if two different people have two differnet axis points but both have the same exact ball with the same exact specs both laid out with the same drill pattern (for instince a 4x4 or 3 1/2 x 3 1/2) will the ball roll the same?

proform · « **Reply #31 on:** February 11, 2004, 03:22:07 PM »

so now your saying they want their products to suck. so they are having everyone including staff bowlers drill the product wrong. earlier you said it was they didn't know any better.. hook ealier means more hook in oil. later means it can only hook if it doesn't run out of lane and can find DRY BOARDS.
you obviously only bowl on walls(bumper bowling) and fried. tell you what load up the positive, shine that ball and see you next year at the US OPEN. HOPE THAT BALL CAN FIND THAT BUMPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T-GOD · « **Reply #32 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:09:10 PM »

pro,

quote:
earlier you said it was they didn't know any better.. hook ealier means more hook in oil. later means it can only hook if it doesn't run out of lane and can find DRY BOARDS.
you obviously only bowl on walls(bumper bowling) and fried. tell you what load up the positive, shine that ball and see you next year at the US OPEN. HOPE THAT BALL CAN FIND THAT BUMPER!

I'm right, you guys so snowed over and confused, you don't know what makes sense anymore..!! As a matter of fact, you aren't making sense anymore..!!

quote:
Balls that burn up early, have less backend. Balls that don't burn up early, go longer and have more backend..!! Now what don't you understand about that..?

You can't/won't even answer my simple questions.

quote:
side weight=more backend
negative side wieght=less backend

Now, I'm just following simple logic here. Why can't you follow simple logic..? Is it because you're brainwashed..?

Balls that burn up early, have less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight = less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight means weight on the negative side of the ball...Right..?
Weight on the negative side of the ball, means that the weight is farther from your PAP...Right..?

Balls that don't burn early, go longer...Right..?
Balls that go longer have more backend...Right..?
Positive side weight = more backend...Right..?
Weight on the positive side of the ball, means that it's closer to your PAP...Right..?

Now tell me, have I said anything wrong/incorrect, in the 8 lines/statements directly above this one..? If not, what don't you understand..? Everything I've stated is logical, so what is there left..?

Don't you think logically, or do you just believe everything you hear..? =:^D

proform · « **Reply #33 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:31:28 PM »

LOOK AT ONE STATEMENT YOU JUST RETYPED-- BALLS THAT DON'T BURN-UP EARLY GO LONGER----CORRECT
NOW BALLS WITH PIN CLOSER TO PAP HOOK EARLIER EQUATES TO CAN BURN UP IF NOT ENOUGH OIL FOR SURFACE ....
PIN CLOSER TO TRACK EQUATES TO GOING LONGER WILL NOT HOOK UNLESS THERE IS DRY BOARDS DOWN LANE WILL NOT HOOK IN THE FRONT---MID OILS.....
YOU ARE THE NOT MAKING SENSE....BECOUSE INORDER FOR THR BALL TO HAVE HOOKED TOO EALRY IT HAD TO ROLL EARLIER AND ON LONGER OIL AND NOT BUMPER BOWLING THIS ENGINE WILL HOOK MORE..
YOUR PIN CLOSER TO TRACK WILL NEVER GET THE OPORTUNUTY TO HOOK UNLESS THE BOWLER CREATES IT AND/OR THE SURFACE CRESTES IT...
YOUR EQUATING THE PIN CLOSER TO TRACK AS HOOKING MORE IN OILY CONDITIONS, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE...
STILL WAITING FOR ONE EXAMPLE OF ANY BOWLER ON BALL STAFF USING YOUR LOGIC OR WHY THE BALL COMPANIES WOULD SUPPLY THEIR STAFFS WITH WRONG TECHNIQUES!
IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING NOBODY ELSE KNOWS WHY AREN'T YOU ON STAFF, DESIGNING OR EMPLOYED BY ANY COMPANY.
NOW BRIAN IS ON BALL STAFF AND HAS CREDENTIALS, I HAVE BEEN ON STAFF.
WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS OTHER THAN MISINFORMATION, BACKWARDS LOGIC, DOUBLE TALK AND CLAIMING YOU KNOW WHAT NOBODY ELSE KNOWS..

proform · « **Reply #34 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:34:37 PM »

I AM DONE WITH YOU UNLESS YOU WOULD LIKE TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINIONS WITH SOME CREDENTIALS.. OTHER THAN THE COMPANIES AND DRILLING GURUS ARE WRONG.. BUT WHAT YOU SPILL OUT IS CORRECT.. WAITING FOR EXAMPLES OR DON'T WAISTE MY TIME

T-GOD · « **Reply #35 on:** February 11, 2004, 04:52:11 PM »

proform,, you are frazzled and confused..!! Hell, I can barely read your post. And, as usual, you didn't/couldn't answer my simple questions. =:^D

T-GOD · « **Reply #36 on:** February 11, 2004, 05:01:05 PM »

Brian,

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balls that burn up early, have less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight = less backend...Right..?
Negative side weight means weight on the negative side of the ball...Right..?
Weight on the negative side of the ball, means that the weight is farther from your PAP...Right..?

Balls that don't burn early, go longer...Right..?
Balls that go longer have more backend...Right..?
Positive side weight = more backend...Right..?
Weight on the positive side of the ball, means that it's closer to your PAP...Right..?

Now tell me, have I said anything wrong/incorrect, in the 8 lines/statements directly above this one..? If not, what don't you understand..? Everything I've stated is logical, so what is there left..?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll tell you whats wrong with these statements. They refer to a three piece, pancake shaped core. You don't mention the pin position or mass bias at all. So if you are using balls that have a pin and MB, the statements above are incomplete and may or may not be true.

No Brian, you are incorrect again. These are standard/generic statements that apply to all balls..!!

proform · « **Reply #37 on:** February 12, 2004, 08:59:17 AM »

T-God
the only thing confusing is your lack of knowledge and logic.
still waiting for atleast one example of anyone using your theory.
still waiting for some credentials.
are you a 180 bowler who thinks he has information that nobody else has.
tonight i will try your ideas.. by your theory if i place my pin on my pap and take the surface to 220 the ball will go long.
oh wait thats right you said positive wait makes the ball go long and finish harder and pin toward pap by your theory is major positive weight than why does pin at pap not generate more backend.

hope this makes sense, but to you it won't..
because its all a conspiracy by the ball manufactures to sell equipment have it not work and buy more..
you need to design a ball, apply your drilling theory direct the buyers to drill with your theory and have the only balls on the market that don't suck..

ball manufactures giving wrong directions to the purchaser,staff and tour staff and having the product not work is a great business plan-- well maybe not

please finally support your nonsense with credentials!
you won't because you can't!

and answer the simple example i gave---WHY WOULD ROBERT SMITH USE ALL 5+ PIN TO PAP'S IF ACCORDING TO YOU THAT MAKES THE BALL HOOK MORE?
simple because pin closer to track promotes length not hook mass bias and cg to pin shapes the backend.
positive and negative side weights are a minor determining factor in hook be it length or backend. only in a pancake weight block would it be more important.

I already now your response-
see i said pos. weight adds length and backend blah blah blah;
give examples or credentials or stop with the misinformation !

T-GOD · « **Reply #38 on:** February 12, 2004, 03:18:06 PM »

quote:
oh wait thats right you said positive wait makes the ball go long and finish harder and pin toward pap by your theory is major positive weight than why does pin at pap not generate more backend.

Simple, because most of the time, we're bowling on a wall, with carrydown. A wall means a wall of dry boards to the right. So, what happens is the ball will go somewhat long, when it hits the dry, then it hooks hard.

The dry outside is so short, all the way to the foul line, that all you see is the ball hooking. That's why you think a pin axis hooks early, but in reality, the whole lane is hooking early.

When the oil carries down, because pin axis goes long and/or more positive side weight goes longer, it never hooks. This is why you don't see the reaction on the backend with a pin axis drilling.

Now, if you had a blended lane condition, that was fairly dry, you will see that the pin axis drilling goes longer, and, also hooks harder/more on the backend.

If you were using a leverage weight drilling on this condition, you will notice that it hooks earlier, and it will roll out. The pin axis drilling, along with the ending CG on the axis (more positive side along with very little top) will allow you to swing the ball wider, covering more boards, and never rolling out.

Like I said, the reason you don't see pin axis drillings hook on the backend, is because the oil is too long and/or too much carrydown, so the ball goes too long before it hooks.

Does this make any sense to you..? =:^D

channel surfer · « **Reply #39 on:** February 12, 2004, 03:42:51 PM »

Well pin on axis will make the core in a stable position, so obviously the ball wouldnt flare much, so I guess I could see a little extra length, with a arcing backend I suppose??
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proform · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2004, 08:04:08 AM »

so T-GOD
YOUR BOWLING KNOWLEDGE AND THEORY ONLY WORKS ON ONE CONDITION AND NOT BASED ON THE PHYSICS YOU CLAIMED EARLIER. YOU KEEP TRYING TO CHANGE THE DEBATE AND BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO FACTS, EXAMPLES OR CREDENTIALS THE TRUTH COMES OUT.
YOU ARE A LEAGUE(HOUSE) BOWLER WHO THINKS BOWLING IS AS I SAID EARLIER THE BUMPER BOWLING YOU BOWL ON. AS I SAID EARLIER YOUR THEORY ONLY WORKS ON CONDITIONS WITH THE GREAT BUMPER. ON A TRUE CONDITION THE FLAT CONDITION YOU MENTIONED AS IN THE US OPEN FOR YOU AND YOUR LEAGUE BUDDIES BY THE END OF PRACTICE WITHOUT SUPER SURFACE YOU WILL HAVE A SPARE BALL.

proform · « **Reply #41 on:** February 13, 2004, 08:32:16 AM »

T-GOD

this started with you stating-
pin closer to track hooks more
pin closer to pap goes longer
and that this is physics and ball maufacturers are wrong because their sheets state the opposite. this is NOT a condition specific debate, you staed this as physics and a constant.

as Brian, all ball manufacturers, knowledgeable technicians and myself state-
pin closer to track adds length
pin closer to pap earlier roll
pin approximately 3 3/8 from pap most dynamic

now that you still can't give proof that the above people/experts are wrong you turn this to condition specific. if this was a condition specific debate when i came in than show when this was condition specific.

the FACT that pin closer to pap doesn't finish on the walled condition DOES NOT change the FACT that pap closer to pin promotes earlier roll, but instead proves it. the FACT that pin closer to track most likely will finish harder when hitting that dry backend, DOES NOT changed the FACT that pap closer to track promotes length, but again proves it.

T-GOD · « **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2004, 09:43:50 AM »

PF, I've been on this site from almost the beginning, more than 3 yrs. I've stated my credentials on here more than a few times. You've just arrived here. I don't/haven't see any credentials from you.

But, I don't care what your credentials are, because they don't matter to me. I just go by what you say, that's it. I don't care if you're a 160 average bowler, if you say something that makes sense, then I'll agree with you.

You see, I use my brain to figure things out. I don't just go by what someone says, I'll experiment and prove it, right or wrong. Everything I've tried to teach you guys about weights has all been experimented with, tried and proven, by myself. My statements also coincide with the laws of physics. It's not my fault that you guys don't know/understand physics.

Like I explained earlier, a ball rolled perfectly forward, in a 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock motion, no side rotation, with the core and ending CG 6 3/4" from the axis, will just roll end over end all the way down the lane. The ball won't hook, can't hook and doesn't hook, it just goes straight, all the way down the lane.

So, are you going to say the ball is going/sliding long..? No, it's rolling early and it's rolled out, right from the get go..!!

Now, you take the same ball rotation, but now you have the core on it's axis, and the ending CG/weight on your axis/maximum side weight. You will see the ball hook some, because the weight is on the side of the ball.

Because you see the ball hook, and the other one with the core going end over end not hooking, you think the ball with the core/weight on it's axis is hooking earlier.

Visually, yes it's hooking earlier, but technically it's not..!! It's going longer and hooking, while the other one is rolling earlier and not hooking at all.

You see, what you see is not always the way things are..!! =:^D

anotherwindup · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2004, 10:25:25 AM »

T-God- your theory makes ZERO sense.

I have laid out many balls and thrown many balls with different cores, layouts, covers, etc.
On ANY condition a ball with the pin on the axis will REV earlier, causing earlier ROLL, and a more controlled backend. This may APPEAR to go longer but in acutality it is burning more energy, and not hooking, therefore appearing to go longer.

A ball with a longer pin to PAP length will put the core in a more upright position, causing the core to LOPE, and not ROLL. Therefore it stores energy, and when the track flares and hits dry it will hook more radically.

If your theory held water- then with my 20 revs and bowling on a dry condition I need to throw pin axis balls? the ball would store 0 energy and the only hook produced would be from the cover and the rotation.

How come I keep drilling balls with longer and longer pin to PAP distances, and the ball keeps going LONGER AND LONGER before transitioning into hook.

I gotta call my ball driller-----oh, wait, he is still out on tour.....WHAT DOES HE KNOW?

??
--------------------

Jason Jenkins
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"

proform · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2004, 10:28:57 AM »

T-GOD
I have been on this site for over 2 years, know that Brian Omara has been on for as long or longer, have seen him list credentials, have seen him ask yours with no response and listed some of mine when asking yours. it is you who is not seeing or understanding ball reaction, surface preparation, lane preparation and how each effects and/or is effected by the other.
once again 21yrs drilling
proshop owner/operator..manager..technician..coaching..lane maintenance..mechanic..PBA member..etc.

your example is not relevant to the debate of pin closer to pap vs pin closer to pap..because i could just say pin placement,cg placement and mb placement are erelevent and don't effect ball motion at all because i bowl on 60 ft 70 units flat synthetic surface 100 units of oil flat.. we all would agree that no matter what placements we had this will never hook.. well maybe by your theories there is debate because my eyes say no hook all 60 feet but you see it as hooking too early..

we all can come up with extremes that are not relative to the debate and cloud the bottom line T-GOD is the only person who sees what Mo Pinel, Del Warren, other ball designer,experts, Brian and myself can't see or choose to mislead the customer because if the product doesn't work based on misinformation we will sell more product.
The great conspiracy, but T-GOD has caught on so Columbia,Storm,Ebonite,Morich,Lane1,Hammer,Brunswick,Visionary etc. the game is up because T-GOD the unknown has it all figured out..
My shop will no longer be carrying your products until you learn at T-GOD hands or reprint all products and refund all moneys to myself and my customers.

Author Topic: layouts by your axis point, help please (Read 8863 times)

bowlerstyle

layouts by your axis point, help please

proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

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channel surfer

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proform

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proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

T-GOD

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anotherwindup

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please

proform

Re: layouts by your axis point, help please