win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: The difficult coke bottle test!  (Read 14767 times)

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
The difficult coke bottle test!
« on: October 14, 2004, 03:45:51 AM »
If one does not have a fitting ball (the best method) but wants to get there lateral thumb pitch correct.  A very important task analgous to getting a proper grip in golf.

You see the proper lateral thumb pitch allows one to use there natural anatomy in their favor and if set properly allows the bowler to easily and naturally get the fingers around the side of the ball so that the arm can travel up the path of the ball(or even to the outside of the ball slightly and give the ball enough side turn to get back to the pocket).  This proper motion is analgous to the inside out swing in golf.  Those with the proper grip can return the clubface to square or slightly closed to the path of the clubhead swing and get the ball to draw(hook).  Those with the improper grip cannot swing on the inside path and get the ball to hook, they can only hook if they pull the ball.

So it is in bowling.  Those without this position properly set for their anatomy cannot properly get their arm to swing inside out and still hook the ball without all sorts of compensations.  (Why make it hard).

Thus the Coke bottle test to determine the proper lateral pitch!  Very good substitute for the fitting ball.

Many people however have trouble with the coke bottle test.  Recently one of our users on this site JJWEB was trying to fix pitch and span.  Honestly looking for help he sent pictures to our community asking for help.

I think I and some of the in the business drilling daily gurus have maybe helped him.  I also pointed out to him his incorrect steps in performing coke bottle test and hopefully helped him do it correctly.

He was nice enough to allow me to use his pictures to illustrate how not to do the coke bottle test and how to do it right!  This is not meant to insult him but only to possibly help others!  I thank him for his pictures!

Here we go.

1st attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

This won't do, this bottle way smaller than a 16 ounce or 20 ounce coke bottle does not even cause the user to grasp it with the thumb.  Object is just in palm of hand.  Falsely gives a result of 1/8 lateral out.

2nd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
This won't do either, this LARGE 24 ounce coke bottle does not allow grasping with the thumb also giving a false result of 1/8 lateral out!

3rd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAyMDYzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Ah hah finally a bottle that allows grasping a 16 ounce bottle!!!
The coke bottle at 16 ounces to 12 ounces is still thebest!
But now we see the real result.  Thumb TIP points at his RING finger!  
Well that is a big difference! That calls for 3/8 lateral right.

Quite a difference from our first result of 1/8 left lateral.

I've made some recommendations based on these pictures to Mr. JJWeb lets see how things shake out!

Thanks JJ.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS hope this helps somebody!
PPS again the final test is to go out to your center and see where your arm travels in relation to your ball path.  Here is a great test if you have the resources to do it!  
1. Drill up 3 to 4 balls exactly the same except for lateral thumb pitch.  Since I test at 1/4 lateral under palm(left for me) I bring balls set at 0, 1/8 lateral under palm, 1/4 lateral under palm and 3/8 lateral under palm.
2. Throw each one being careful to monitor where your arm travels inrelation to the ball path.  All of a sudden you will see it!  

The balls with too little lateral under palm for you will NOT hook back if you swing your arm to the outside of the ball path even the least little bit!  The balls with Too much lateral under palm pitch will always have to be thrown with your arm traveling well outside the proper ball path and will make it hard to stay behind the ball if you decide to do that.  Finally with just the proper lateral  under palm pitch your arm will be able to go straight up the ball path or just slightly outside the ball path and still return the ball back to the pocket.... ah perfection.  (note the answer does not HAVE to be lateral under palm, it more often is but it does not HAVE to be for your anatomy).

This exercise is so much easier to do with golf.  We just take a student and teach him how to swing the club thru the tee spot on an inside to out line.
If he slices we strengthen the grip until the ball starts to return back towards the target(the perfect small draw).  We don't have to bring four sets of grips etc.  

However the concept is the same!  Bon Appetit!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

 

jimensminger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1846
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2004, 04:02:55 PM »
T-G,..exactly. There is no pure way to measure and fit a ball,..there are very basic guidelines that aid and assist in getting a persons hand to the close-fit position..I've done my own stuff for years and years,..and it never fails that I pick up some guys ball I'm practicing with and his ball feels better than mine..Good pro shop fitters know how to give a customer comfort,..and they also deal with trial and error trying to achieve that fit...every hand is different, comfort for you may not be comfort for me. I can give you the bestest fit I think possible,..but if you can't let go of it in the manner it was designed to be released,..we have to start all over...
--------------------
www.dynothane.com


Edited on 10/19/2004 4:00 PM

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2004, 09:03:07 AM »
Hey, I"d like to publicly thank the great bowlers and intelligent nice guys
T-God and Jim Ensminger for emailing responses to my questions and giving me some great ideas to ponder and continue in my testing!

I'll get back to all of you in several weeks with some observations.

ALSO
Kamul, I've had the Bill Taylor fitting device used on me and never saw anyone use the lateral feature of it to measure.  Maybe you could detail the method.

Oh that is the plastic circle with the thumb with spring loaded feature and all the different thumb sizes punched in surface?

I also want to say I agree with them that very often the best fit anatomical grip is a starting point and around this center point for your hand tweaks can be done for reaction.  In addition T god has given me a method to try that essentially changes ones starting point for thumb lateral.  Would have tried it last night except for some slow setting plug!

Oh well, next week.

REgards,

LUckylefty

Edited on 10/20/2004 8:55 AM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Doc Hollywood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2004, 10:18:21 AM »
After viewing the pics and reading all the responses I have some of my own opinions as to the bone structure and alignment of the grip.

In the pictures I have noticed that the hand has relatively short fingers and thumb.  His thumb is also tapered and does not have great flexibility.

In the first picture his hand lies the most natural and though the bottle is small it does show his natural grip.  If you were to expand the bottle size and keep his grip light and keep his palm flat on the bottle he would have more left lateral pitches.  As his thumb in the other pictures moves closer under palm the muscles in the thenar pad below the thumb start to contract and this causes tension in the grip.  

I have done this and my hand is built nearly the same.

I have tried changing pitch combinations from 3/4 reverse to 1/2 forward and 3/8 under to 3/8 away.  Not just on myself but other bowlers as well.  You will find that as most stiff thumbed bowlers go to more under they have a tendency to grip the ball more instead of having a relaxed grip.


By the way if you are interested in what my pitches are now.  1/2 under 1/4 away Span is 4 5/16 X 4 7/16

--------------------
Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com

Edited on 10/20/2004 10:10 AM

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2004, 11:55:20 AM »
Doc --  

quote:
You will find that as most stiff thumbed bowlers go to more under they have a tendency to grip the ball more instead of having a relaxed grip.


By the way if you are interested in what my pitches are now. 1/2 under 1/4 away Span is 4 5/16 X 4 7/16


Unless you WANT to have to grip the ball more, this is contradictory.  Please explain your pitch selection process.  --  JohnP

T-GOD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2141
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2004, 12:39:04 PM »
1/2 under and 1/4 away..? I'm confused..!!

                |||||
               <o> <o>
               @  ^  @
                \_U_/  

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2004, 01:52:11 PM »
T-GOD -- I'm pretty sure he meant 1/2 right (for a right handed bowler) and 1/4 reverse.  Quite a few people still think with this terminology, but it IS very confusing.  --  JohnP

jjweb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 743
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2004, 09:42:04 PM »
I thought I should give an update after applying the span and pitch changes. All I can say is WOW! What a difference. The ball almost feels lighter, comes off the hand real smooth and clean.

Thanks again guys for all of the help!
--------------------
The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2004, 09:58:42 AM »
JJ...

Were you going to give the pitches you used and maybe how the ball rolls differetnly?

REgards,

LUckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

jjweb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 743
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2004, 01:05:51 PM »
That would have been helpful, sorry.

I went with:
4 11/16 middle, 4 5/8 ring
Zero in the fingers
1/4 right, 1/8 reverse 45 degree oval

I definitely notice I get more turn with my fingers, and it feels fantastic coming off my hand.
--------------------
The bowling gods said "let there be strikes" and then there was Dyno-Thane!

Doc Hollywood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2004, 10:30:59 PM »
Sorry for the confusion all.  What I meant to say was 1/2 forward yes forward and 1/4 left.  I'm a righty.

This has really allowed me to grip the ball very lightly almost none at all.  You would think that it would get stuck but on the forward motion the ball comes off my hand easily.  It took a while to get used to it but I no longer even have to grip the ball with the thumb.  Ron Clifton told me to try it and see what I thought.  I said what the heck.  It works for me.  I did shorten up my grip and it is very relaxed.  Finger pitches are zero forward and 3/8, 3/8/
--------------------
Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2004, 12:03:21 AM »
Doc,

I missed the spans??

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Doc Hollywood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2004, 09:42:38 AM »
Lucky - the spans are 4 5/16 and 4 7/16.
--------------------
Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2004, 09:29:43 AM »
NO!

REgards,

LUckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana