Post by: LuckyLefty on January 08, 2005, 04:03:03 PM
A full report coming late next week!
AWEsome!
REgards,
LUckylefty
Edited on 1/10/2005 7:34 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 10, 2005, 06:47:33 AM
in Orlando this weekend.
If I could sum it up it was just great!
To put it simply the amount you are willing to give to your bowling he will give more! If you want to pour yourself into it he'll put more into your game than you will. His energy at age 80+? outdoes mine as well as all the other attendees.
I'll continue to update during the week as I get access to computers while traveling.
Many details of how he actually fits, information in some of his books I had never seen. Organization of event etc.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: livespive on January 10, 2005, 10:05:22 PM
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: pjr300 on January 11, 2005, 06:36:26 AM
Sounds like Bill kept up his energy level! He was the same way for the seminar that I sponsored out here in September...
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 13, 2005, 08:53:20 PM
I had called him before my awareness of this seminar and had talked to him regarding his ovaling techniques and had made a tentative arrangement to meet in Florida on one of my business trips there. He then went off to some collegiate tournaments while during that time I became aware of this seminar thru Bowling this month. I also went to www.natural-bowling.com referred to in Bowling this Month and saw the complete schedule out there and the other interesting items on the site. It may be of interest to others also.
Anyway I called Ken and asked if we could combine our ovaling meeting with my attendence at the Bill Taylor natural bowling seminar! Have a few openings!
Yahoo!
It fit perfect with my schedule and the price was definitely easy to take!
I had read here that one of the goals in the seminar was to start out by getting your grip perfect and then bowling with it over the rest of the class. However I had read that very often there was lack of coordination in making the proshop aware of this goal in other versions of this seminar in other places of the country.
I called Ken and sort of mentioned this. Then in confirming directions to the bowling center I somehow dialed the proshop number and found that they really didn't have many plans to do anything special regarding being open over the weekend. Yikes! Just what I had read about here on this site.
I had expressed some concern and immediately the proshop also expressed a desire to make sure things went right! Another call to Ken Webber and he said "I'll do everything I can to make this right and see if we can make this go off real well". He also let me know that he usually tried to be better organized but had been traveling with the college team. Anyway a classy response by both ends of the equation.
The Seminar!
Starting time is 6:00 PM... Friday! Directions are good and I as I walk in to the Center I immediately see the well equipped pro shopped manned by WPBA star Kendra Gaines and Kenny Lawson. She gives me a nice friendly greeting and directs me to the seminar.
11 of us and Ken and "The Man". He gives us a friendly greeting all and I immediately know it is going to be a fun time. Each of us is measured. Arm length, leg length body balance! Now a great deal of time is taken to measure our hands and using the Bill Taylor fitting tools! During all of this Bill is telling stories of previous bowling events and predictions of his of pins that will be left because of either physical characteristics or techniacal execution flaws.
I encounter a book I have never seen before called "Bowling Balance"?? I think the book is only about side weight etc. Instead the book has a large sectio on different body positios and what leaves come from what final body position at the foul line!!! Fascinating!!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Edited on 1/13/2005 9:52 PM
Edited on 1/13/2005 10:05 PM
Edited on 1/17/2005 11:34 PM
Edited on 1/17/2005 11:35 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 14, 2005, 07:35:29 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 17, 2005, 10:49:01 PM
Back from the land of warm sunsets, fast woman and tired old computers!
The Fitting
Now what I had been waiting for.
On Friday night along with a lot of other intros stories etc. Bill now has each of us bring a ball to the front that is near our best fit and also that we don't mind having slugged and redrilled.
Caveat. One of our good bowlers and fellow students had brought his recent 300 and 800 ball to the seminar. No way was that getting slugged and refit. MAny others felt the same way! Bring an additional ball that you don't mind playing with!
Now!!!!!. Drumroll please!!! HOw does he actually do it!!
First of everything is done with the Bill Taylor fitting device. You've see them. Browinsh clear plastic. Size of the ball but a flat piece of plastic.
Tons of holes thru plastic to get size of thumb!
Bill places thumb in fitting device and stretches out middle finger. Where the drawn middle of first and second joint of the middle finger falls is the span.
He very quickly then does same with ring. But does not really seem like the measurement is written down he just notes it! Then he confirms the ring by placing hand on ball WITHOUT thumb in the ball and then he grabs ring and middle (so you can't move them) rotates hand in same position and with same amount of cup as having your hand on a bowling ball and notes the difference in middle and ring finger span!!! It is here that he seems to really determine ring finger span. Or confirm it! In my case for the first time ever I ended up with ring shorter than my middle by 1/8 as my middle with this method is 7/16 longer than my ring. Don't tick me off I'm ready to strike with the fateful middle digit faster than ever!!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 17, 2005, 10:50:24 PM
Now it is at this point that Bill does something I have not seen others do!
To be continued!
REgards,
LUckylefty
Post by: UCFKnight300 on January 17, 2005, 11:12:46 PM
Mike
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University of Central Florida + Brunswick = Collegiate Domination
Post by: Goof1073 on January 18, 2005, 06:42:29 AM
The span lengths according to your finger's differentials is actually a good tool to get an approximate fit. However, it's a starting point and not gospel as even in his fitting book he mentions that it should get most people to within a 16th of their final span. Sometime it's a little more, but a person would have to have a pretty flexible thumb.
My shop's owner went to his seminar a while back and came back with a totally different fit...that's for sure. We've both tried to apply various things that Bill taught John...some of which we've stuck with and some we haven't.
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-Chris: DJ's Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 18, 2005, 07:53:04 AM
Whoops take a breather and your post is written for you!
OK Goof wrote almost word for word what I was going to put.
Better than I would of, or could have written it!
Lateral pitch was determined right in the Bill Taylor Ball fit disc.
I did not expect this.
Back of my thumb line when pulled in and out of ball gently continued to hit the 3rd marking on the thumb hole from center. Lateral pitch of 3/8. Bill also determined my oval rotation from this. 34 degrees??? HOw I did not figure out!
Note this was not the ball fit disc with the swivelling oval in it(or as Bill affectionately calls it!.... the Swovel).
THE BIG KAHUNA forward and lateral pitches.
NOw here I was surprised. No balls were drilled now.
The next morning Bill asked us to bring a ball close to the span specs he used or any ball. I had one sort of close. Throw it. From this point Bill determined Proper forward and reverse thumb pitch.
SURPRISE!!!! In my case I ended up surprisingly forward of the tables.
THis left me questioning. Bill informed me that the tables were a starting point only and most of his top bowlers ended up quite a bit forward of that.
Similar to the Magic Carpet method. Go forward from tables until you hang and then back off 1/16! As I said a big surprise. He discussed the great Durbin at this time and how he had ended up quite a bit forward at the peak of his great career! Informative.
Again Ken Webber at this point emphasized that one wants the greatest seperation of early thumb release and late finger release to have the maximum time betweeen them. He also discussed his very recent article in BTM and noted that he uses 5/8 forward and does so because he uses the new slippery tapes on his thumb that get the ball off so quick that the forward allows him to control the point when to release.
Note, most of Bill's students who are in the 4 1/2 inch span range do end up near 0 but most of them in contrast to other bowlers on this site end up with lateral under palm thumb pitch!
As in his book Bill spent very little time on finger pitch during our sessions.
Now the drilling. In my case because my ring finger span was dramtically changed my ball ended up being drilled with my thumb mostly outside the thumb slug and in the ball. Not raving about that but just the way it worked out!
Middle finger and ring left alone!
CRITICAL point. I asked Bill why I had so much trouble holding on to the ball.
Bill emphasized to me that with my technique which he was going to recommend a change I had so much lift on the bottom of the swing with a high and muscled backswing that he wasn't surprised that the pressure of the ball at release was great. Think maybe a muscled armswing slower version of Jason Couch.
He would have none of that for me. One would seek to end up closer to his star pupil and favorite bowler David Ozio! As he states, "Just perfect"
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS more on technique coming unless Goof writes it for me! I need to pause.
PPS seminar was held at Aloma bowl. Some other UCFers were there!
Post by: Goof1073 on January 18, 2005, 09:35:13 AM
quote:No I'll let you field that one! Actually John didn't get into the technique aspects of things with me very much as Bill loved his form.
PS more on technique coming unless Goof writes it for me!
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-Chris: DJ's Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 19, 2005, 06:26:02 AM
Sessions were either 10 to 2 or 2 to 6!
I chose later to make sure I had my new drilling for the session.
Kendra and Kenny Lawson worked their tush's off for us to get it all done!
Thanks!
Anyway right after warming up Bill pulled me aside and said, "you really could be SO SO much better". Very encouraging as I was throwing a lot of strikes and felt like I was sort of on! However I was throwing my typical bad shots occassionally also!
I think he was very encouraging to all!
Anyway he noted what I have noted before in sessions with pros. Very high backswing, muscled armswing, early timing with a pause of the ball at top of backswing, free arm pointing down the alley to open shoulders for my high backswing and then a last minute sweep of my free arm back to the side wall.
I see this done in variations by Pete Weber, Mike Machuga and Ameletto!
Bill said "FINE, but a complicated way to bowl". "AND, you are much earlier than they are".
So we set out to solve it!
Shorten down to 4 step but with a twist. Bill wants me to move ball with second step what he calls a "3 1/2 stepper". It really seemed to work!
My ball speed kept going up and my effort kept going down along with the height of my backswing! Free arm was spending a lot of time pointing to the side wall where it should be.
Bill gave me every bit of almost 4 hours of individual coaching over the two days and stayed late to continue helping.
Now it's been two weeks since our last session and I haven't thrown once since I squeezed this in during a long business trip! I will see how well I can reprogram back to this different set of movements when I get back to the lanes.
Bill gave me a program to follow for awhile until I start seriously competing again.
I am really encouraged by how I was throwing the ball at the end!
OVer all I got MUCH more than I paid for! I would highly recommend these sessions!
Things I gained.
1. Better than ever fit
2. Better understanding of the Bill Taylor fitting method than ever.
3. Understanding of how to achieve a Free armswing!
4. Understanding of how body position at the foul line leaves to different leaves. Contained in "Bowling Balance book also". Explains a lot of my ringing 7s!
Finally it is amazing to me how the shortening of my ring finger span has taken away the feeling that the ball always wants to get high on me a little too early! Even with the strong amount of thumb under palm lateral added to my grip! The last time I had this feeling it was with my extremely stretched span!
That tore up my thumb!
REgards,
LUckylefty
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 19, 2005, 05:19:00 PM
In an extensive discussion with Ken Webber we agreed on the concept of where an oval is measured from to give the same feel as a round.
I had once posted a little dittie called. "Release point spanning" that some members took offense too.
But I'll post a new one here in drilling called "expert confirmation"!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Brickguy221 on January 19, 2005, 08:33:41 PM
quote:
Shorten down to 4 step but with a twist. Bill wants me to move ball with second step what he calls a "3 1/2 stepper". It really seemed to work!
Works for me. I have been doing this for a few months now. Even sort of have a split second hesitation at end of first step in a 4 step approach.
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Why do you need my signature?....You know who I am.
Post by: Brickguy221 on January 19, 2005, 08:41:00 PM
quote:
Finally it is amazing to me how the shortening of my ring finger span has taken away the feeling that the ball always wants to get high on me a little too early!
You may not believe this, but it is true. Using Bill Taytlor's measuring method, I have been using a 4 1/4 x 4 3/8 span. For what ever reason unknown to me, the ring finger seemed to be effecting my release giving me some badly thrown balls. Could hardley ever pick up a 10 Pin. I shortened my RF like Bill Taylor had you do, although probably for different reasons. Two weeks ago I shortened the RF 1/8, so span is now 4 1/4 x 4 1/4. Wow, what a difference in my release, more strikes, better accuracy on spares, and can now pick up the 10 Pin almost every time.
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Why do you need my signature?....You know who I am.
Edited on 1/19/2005 9:39 PM
Post by: a_ak57 on January 19, 2005, 08:41:37 PM
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- Andy
Brunswick..........'Nuff said.
Post by: pjr300 on January 19, 2005, 09:24:04 PM
I coordinated Bill's trip to Detroit this past September. The format that LL described is pretty much the same format we used here. Take my word for it -- this is a great investment! The man is fun -- more evergy than you can believe -- and the stories are a riot. Oh, did I mention the world class instruction?
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 20, 2005, 08:39:33 AM
For a guy like me with a much longer middle finger(watch out) then a shorter ring finger makes sense. Others with nearly same length end up with much longer rings.
The dividing line is 5/16 longer middle makes fingers equal on ball.
REgards,
Luckylefty
2 1/2 day seminar is based on average the higher the more expensive. around $200 for the 200 average bowler! I guaratee, YOU win!
Post by: baiki on January 20, 2005, 09:42:53 AM
LuckyLefty,
Thank You for sharing your session with Bill Taylor with us here. It's very informative.
As many of us are not living in the US we really appreciate it. We may never have a chance to attend one of these.
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baiki
"Faulty mechanics makes all balls bad." Bill Hall, BTM Dec. '98
Post by: livespive on January 20, 2005, 09:49:25 AM
quote:
Remember the span difference is all based on middle finger length to ring finger length.
For a guy like me with a much longer middle finger(watch out) then a shorter ring finger makes sense. Others with nearly same length end up with much longer rings.
The dividing line is 5/16 longer middle makes fingers equal on ball.
REgards,
Luckylefty
2 1/2 day seminar is based on average the higher the more expensive. around $200 for the 200 average bowler! I guaratee, YOU win!
Hey there LL,
Looking at your hand with it streched out, how much longer is your middle finger than your ring finger (Messuring the crease in the finger at the first joint)?
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 20, 2005, 09:57:51 AM
But the measurement is taken with ball laid on ball!
fingers are then held(middle and ring) and hand is rotated off ball with cup shape of ball still maintained in hand and fingers.
In this position Bill said I was 7/16 which leads to a 1/8 longer middle.
(Just like Parker Bohn). Of course I believe that I am probably really about 3/8 longer and ring needs to be slightly lengthened.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: onlybowling on January 22, 2005, 04:19:34 PM
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OnlyBowling
Post by: Borincano on January 23, 2005, 03:32:24 PM
Post by: Drillmn300 on January 23, 2005, 09:50:26 PM
Drill
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 25, 2005, 07:46:52 AM
Hope you get to go too!
Say hi to "The Guru" for me!
REgards,
LUckylefty
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 13, 2005, 11:17:51 PM
I get to try my new techniques (four weeks three weeks, five weeks? I don't know... awhile) and have the wonderful opportunity to try them by bowling in a league with new guys without my shoes! I left them .... somewhere?!
Disaster with house shoes!!! Should have worn sneaker on push off foot as house shoes slide just fine! All sorts of wobbly and uncertainty!
Anyway go home find em and go to today's usual Sunday morning shootout with the big boys!
First three balls I nearly fall on my head, arse and tailbone. Total of about 20 pins! Lots of pity for the invalid. Finally I refeel my OWN shoes and go a about 17 of 20 streak with my only leaves being 9 pins!
This with my totally new technique bowling for a small amount of jingle!(I know I was suppossed to only observe).
A knowlegeable observer who was watching said to me.
"You've changed your whole game". "A more proper pushaway and drop followed by a freeer armswing a lower backswing and then more speed with less effort"
"I also noticed that you are squarer with your shoulders with your free arm pointing out to the far wall".
I replied, "Ah yes kimosabe!" Those are all the things I'm trying to do!
Except for a total of about four 9 pins and two 8 pins I would have had a nice 7. I think the score sheet said about 637!
I threw it much better! This at a house that is typically NOT lefty friendly.
The extra speed made it a lot easier. All of a sudden a ball I could not get down the lane is easily pushed to the breakpoint and then it does it's nice Icon2 job of hooking strongly to the hole! Not bad for the first time really seriously out trying the Bill Taylor concepts!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I'm very encouraged!
Got my own shoes. First two
Post by: Borincano on February 14, 2005, 03:00:17 PM
I read about how Bill told you to change your steps and I have change from the back dot line to about 6 inches before the second row of dots plus keeping a low back swing. Did a practice game and got 6 x and 5 9/ (2 10 pins. 2 7 pins, 1 4 pin)216 game.
Tonight I will try it during league time.
PS: Have an OverDrive that I will try tomorrow in another league for the first time. Have not thrown it yet.
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 14, 2005, 05:01:41 PM
From five steps to four, from near the back row of dots to the second set of dots.
REally important differences are for me it is what Bill calls a 3 1/2 step.
Ball moves with the second of my four steps first heel move! This is because I was early!
Also very important(we drilled on this over and over). Pushaway starts with ball up near shoulder and pushaway is straight out almost level. At least at bicep level. (I had a tendancy to jerk down really getting my early timing started.
Each day my speed is up and effort decreased. Also after pushaway, free arm goes staight to the side wall! I used to let it go in front of me.
I'm loving the results so far!
If I can start putting up some 7s at this place I can bowl most anywhere!
Yesterday's tour shot looked similar to our league shot!
REgards,
Luckylefty