BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: J_w73 on January 11, 2023, 12:15:27 PM
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Just wondering what people's opinion is on a pin at center of grip(5" pin to PAP) to create a smooth controlled ball motion vs a short 2" pin to PAP layout?
Do you think one is better than the other for balls with a higher RG vs lower RG?
Is one better than the other for balls with high differential vs low differential?
I know with an asymmetrical ball you will get more of a Rico layout motion with the pin at center grip , but I'm just wondering about symmetrical balls at this time.
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When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.
When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
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When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.
When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
Yeah. But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25).
Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane. The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin. While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend. Think of backend reaction in this manner:
Short pin: least amount of backend
Pin near palm: more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin: the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.
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When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.
When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
Yeah. But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25).
Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane. The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin. While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend. Think of backend reaction in this manner:
Short pin: least amount of backend
Pin near palm: more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin: the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.
Thanks. Pretty much what I was thinking. What do you think about a Twist(2.59 0.018 diff) vs a power torq(2.48 0.054 diff) for short oil. 38 ft. Was thinking about doing the Torq with pin in grip and Twist short pin to PAP.
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When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.
When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
Yeah. But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25).
Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane. The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin. While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend. Think of backend reaction in this manner:
Short pin: least amount of backend
Pin near palm: more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin: the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.
For most bowlers the change in numbers of pin up or down doesnt matter. Pin to pap will be the bigger factor in the reaction for most. Someone should make a video on it with throwbot
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When you deviate from 3 3/8" pin to pap towards the pap (2") you reduce flare and the ball tends to be earlier and have a smoother response to friction.
When you take the pin the other direction away from your pap (5") the flare is reduced and the ball tends to have more length with a faster response to friction.
Yeah. But when the pin goes below the fingers it reduces flare and lowers the differential which tends to make the ball smoother, not more responsive (75 degree VAL angle is slower off friction than a 25).
Where I think the biggest difference is going to take place is the front part of the lane. The 5 inch pin will still clear the fronts better while yielding a similar backend as the short pin. While similar, the continuation from the pin down 5 inch pin should be slightly more than the short pin because the whole purpose of the short pin is to take any angularity off the backend. Think of backend reaction in this manner:
Short pin: least amount of backend
Pin near palm: more continuation than the short pin but still controllable
Tall pin: the closer to the VAL you get, the more violent the backend.
For most bowlers the change in numbers of pin up or down doesnt matter. Pin to pap will be the bigger factor in the reaction for most. Someone should make a video on it with throwbot
off topic side note, but that video... splitting the 7 8... hahaha. Well that shot was extremely heavy, if not almost through the nose, and hit the left side of the 5 pin, so of course it is going to finish way farther left than a pocket hit.
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You have to watch the videos on mute. The stupid stuff said on most will cause an aneurysm. It's the reason bowlers are typically ignorant. Marketing over everything
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I prefer the short pin reaction. It's smooth and rolly and still moves down lane and the pin in center of the grip is lopey and doesn't pick a roll very good for me. I've had a short pin Ringer for a while that gets used here and there. I just found a Sidewinder that I forgot I had (Rico). I had the weight hole filled and so far I'm not impressed. I did have some pretty crappy lanes the two time's I've thrown it, but I'm still not optimistic it's going to be good for me.
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I prefer the short pin reaction. It's smooth and rolly and still moves down lane and the pin in center of the grip is lopey and doesn't pick a roll very good for me. I've had a short pin Ringer for a while that gets used here and there. I just found a Sidewinder that I forgot I had (Rico). I had the weight hole filled and so far I'm not impressed. I did have some pretty crappy lanes the two time's I've thrown it, but I'm still not optimistic it's going to be good for me.
What is the pin to pap on the Sidewinder? Without a weight hole the reaction is not going to be the same as with it no doubt. When you have the hole it helps bring the PSA out away from the center grip line below the thumb towards the val. Allowing the ball to slow down sooner and make its move.
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I'd have to measure, probably 5-6" pin to PAP. I was just giving my insight to the OP about pin in grip center vs. a short pin. Obviously dynamics won't be the same without the designed weight hole, but can't have them anymore.
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I'd have to measure, probably 5-6" pin to PAP. I was just giving my insight to the OP about pin in grip center vs. a short pin. Obviously dynamics won't be the same without the designed weight hole, but can't have them anymore.
Explains the ball reaction you see with it
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For what it is worth, I see the same on a short pin layout versus a 5-6 inch pin layout (ala RICO). I really prefer the short pin layout, by a mile.
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Explains the ball reaction you see with it
It does, but again was just explaining the reaction difference to the OP who was interested. One has the pin very far from the axis, one is very close. Neither will flare a lot, but one might prefer the reaction of one over the other. Like 3835 I prefer the short pin reaction also.
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Explains the ball reaction you see with it
It does, but again was just explaining the reaction difference to the OP who was interested. One has the pin very far from the axis, one is very close. Neither will flare a lot, but one might prefer the reaction of one over the other. Like 3835 I prefer the short pin reaction also.
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I discussed the difference in my first reply. It seems most on this thread think the pin in the palm area is the Rico layout which is incorrect. Take away the pin location and just focus on the pin to pap distances vs in palm or above the bridge etc.
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I do see more length with the long pin to PAP distance, but I don't see the fast response to friction from your initial response. If I did, maybe I'd like the reaction more. Right now it has no place in my bag. Maybe for someone with a higher rev rate? From memory, high rev guys liked the (true) Rico drill with the weight hole more also.
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I do see more length with the long pin to PAP distance, but I don't see the fast response to friction from your initial response. If I did, maybe I'd like the reaction more. Right now it has no place in my bag. Maybe for someone with a higher rev rate? From memory, high rev guys liked the (true) Rico drill with the weight hole more also.
How fast the ball sees and responds to friction has a lot to do with the ball, surface, and bowlers style.
My rev rate is 400rpm and i prefer to have one ball in my tournament bag on the rico layout (vapor zone vintage) along with one lower end symmetric ball that has a 2" pin (black Raw, or Counter Attack solid). Two very different looks two very different purposes for me. The 2" pin allows me to keep my angles infront of me when the backends are really fresh. This has to be done playing further right. When i move in and try to open up my angles some with the short pin it will not kick cornes. The rico layout when bowling on non-short sport patterns allows me to play further left and control the backends from that angle.
Rarely will you see conditions where you are able to use a short pin from deeper angles and carry corners very well. Thats where the short pin vs rico layout fit for me.
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Is there a worry of the ball flaring over the finger holes with the pin at center grip? I know before the weight hole would help push the bowtie up, but now we can't do that.
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Rarely will you see conditions where you are able to use a short pin from deeper angles and carry corners very well. Thats where the short pin vs rico layout fit for me.
Are you talking about the past? Since you can no longer use weight holes, there is no more Rico layout. That's why the OP was asking about pin in grip center vs. short pin to PAP. With no weight hole, the pin in grip center is too lazy for me. My rev rate is lower so maybe that's some of the difference I'm seeing.
J_w73 - I didn't look at the flare rings when I threw it.
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Rarely will you see conditions where you are able to use a short pin from deeper angles and carry corners very well. Thats where the short pin vs rico layout fit for me.
Are you talking about the past? Since you can no longer use weight holes, there is no more Rico layout. That's why the OP was asking about pin in grip center vs. short pin to PAP. With no weight hole, the pin in grip center is too lazy for me. My rev rate is lower so maybe that's some of the difference I'm seeing.
J_w73 - I didn't look at the flare rings when I threw it.
Im talking about today
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Rarely will you see conditions where you are able to use a short pin from deeper angles and carry corners very well. Thats where the short pin vs rico layout fit for me.
Are you talking about the past? Since you can no longer use weight holes, there is no more Rico layout. That's why the OP was asking about pin in grip center vs. short pin to PAP. With no weight hole, the pin in grip center is too lazy for me. My rev rate is lower so maybe that's some of the difference I'm seeing.
J_w73 - I didn't look at the flare rings when I threw it.
Also with the Rico layout for anyone the pin to pap is important. Depending on your style if the pin to pap is say 5.5" away youd probably want to adjust it slightly closer to your pap say the 4.75 to 5" range
You can no longer get this from a symmetric bowling ball but you still can using asymmetric.
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Is there a worry of the ball flaring over the finger holes with the pin at center grip? I know before the weight hole would help push the bowtie up, but now we can't do that.
Yes depending on your style. For some they moved the pin an 1" above center grip. Moving the pin up and down moves the bowties with it
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Well, Rico was originally a way to give a symmetric ball more asymmetry after drilling. I forget the pros/cons of using Rico on an asymmetric. The weight hole on an asymmetric probably didn't near as much affect, but I thought they still originally had one. I don't want to argue with Mr. Hamlin, but it looks like he's shifting the definition to just a smooth reacting ball. There's more than one way to get that.
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Well, Rico was originally a way to give a symmetric ball more asymmetry after drilling. I forget the pros/cons of using Rico on an asymmetric. The weight hole on an asymmetric probably didn't near as much affect, but I thought they still originally had one. I don't want to argue with Mr. Hamlin, but it looks like he's shifting the definition to just a smooth reacting ball. There's more than one way to get that.
Never heard anyone mention the layout was about "creating more asymmetry". Especially with the weight hole size and depth being used to fine tune the reaction by starting out fairly shallow then drilling out when the track flare and reaction is where it is needed to be. The location of the weight hole was key in that as well once again not for "more asymmetry" but for ball shape bringing the psa out towards the val and for many bowling styles the weight hole was in the ball park of 3 3/8"s from their pap.
Sounds like you are confusing it with Mo and the double thumb layout.
Hamlin mentioned on here many times and social media the intended idea behind it and where it had so much success on tough conditions (mini eliminator I believe being one) blending out the pattern. That hasn't changed.