BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: Boss_Hog on November 14, 2013, 08:58:00 AM
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If I go 1/8 reverse in my thumb would I need to adjust the overall span?
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Why are you wanting to alter the angle of your thumb hole? And span dictates pitch...pitch doesn't dictate span
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Hanging up just a little.
Thumb is straight and relaxed i the hole, I don't think it's a bevel or size issue.
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I would like to know more about this as well. I am in the exact same situation. I cannot for the life of me find a comfortable span/pitch relationship. I almost feel as though I never will.
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If the span is too long it could make you grab it...going with reverse can make you grab it more...also what's your lateral? Lateral towards the palm slows the release also...too many possible variables
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Great comments Just!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Span is fine, not squeezing at all.
Lateral is 1/8 positive.
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Rico is correct. Span dictates pitch. I was certified by IBPSIA and use there guidelines and have been drilling for 17 years. They use a 4" span as 0 frwd/rvs pitch. Every 1/8" inch in span change is 1/16 pitch change. So a 4 1/2" span would be 1/4" reverse. Now, this is a guide and a starting point, not "the requirement." You will also have to add or subtract pitch based on thumb flexibility and thumb length. Like I said, this is a guide and you also have to adjust to the individuals likes. My span for example is 4 3/4 x 4 7/8. My best release is 1/8 right and 3/8 reverse pitch. I can go as little as 3/16 reverse and still come out of ball, but not as clean. I also have approximately 145 degrees of flexibility in my thumb. I see quite a few people bring balls to me to fix pitch because they have release issues. Most of the pitches I fix seem to have 0/0 pitch and I personally think it is due to ball drillers not understanding pitches and 0/0 is easy for them. Hope this helps.
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Right now I think my span is to long. If i insert my thumb all the way in and just lay my hand over not stretching it at all over the finger holes. I have about 1/4" from my first knuckle. Span is currently 4 9/16 middle, 4 5/8 ring. 1/8 reverse 1/16 lateral under palm. It feel like I still have to grip it a little. But if I put more tape in I cant get out of it.
This is also coming form someone whose always been a person using a bigger thumbhole than my thumb needed and 1/4 reverse, high track within 1/2 of fingers and thumb. Learned bowling and got good being someone who always used my grip pressure to hold onto the ball. Game turned to crap 2 years ago and went a whole season rolling the ball over the fingers and thumb. Almost got me out of bowling. Figured it had to be because of not being fit the proper way. Just cant find anything right yet.
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1/8 positive I would assume means palm so I'd go to zero or even 1/8 left...another thing to keep in mind on the span dictating pitch...you are correct on 1/8" span and 1/16" pitch but keep in mind lateral alters this also...it is the combined angle...
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Great info guys... But I thought the whole movement in drilling was trending towards more 0/0 and forward pitch to relax the hand. Less reverse to reduce the squeeze. I'm coming from a grip of 1/2 reverse thumb and 4 5/8 span down to 1/8 reverse and 4 1/2 to try to get the ball to hang on to me a little more and stop squeezing. My drillers long term goal is still to get me to some forward pitch. Is that still the proper path? I do understand its a case by case scenario. Just seems like everyone was going away from reverse pitch which often caused bowlers to hit up on the ball at release.
MN
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Great info guys... But I thought the whole movement in drilling was trending towards more 0/0 and forward pitch to relax the hand. Less reverse to reduce the squeeze. I'm coming from a grip of 1/2 reverse thumb and 4 5/8 span down to 1/8 reverse and 4 1/2 to try to get the ball to hang on to me a little more and stop squeezing. My drillers long term goal is still to get me to some forward pitch. Is that still the proper path? I do understand its a case by case scenario. Just seems like everyone was going away from reverse pitch which often caused bowlers to hit up on the ball at release.
MN
this is the exact same thing that I have been told, i've shorten my span an 1/8 and went from 1/2 reverse to 0 in the thumb. still some tinkering to do, but it fells a whole lot better and more relaxed in the ball
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Gotta remember it's not relaxed...it's fitting properly taking not only the span into consideration but flexibility plus strength...pitches are not a true number anyways, they are angles...a 1/4" 'pitch' on a 5" span is different than on a 4" span...
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I understand what you're saying JustRico... That seems to me it would be very difficult to get a fit perfect since there are so many variables. If span dictates pitch, how Do you know where to start on span? Becuase span changes based on pitch. Forward pitch has to be shorter that reverse. So this leads back into a circle again. Is there a measurement of the span on a person's hand that you can start from?
MN
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Yes I always start with simplicity...thumb to crease of finger then go from there...pitch can change span but I think of it more as altering it
Too many times bowlers get adapted to an incorrect or improper fit and when for closer to correct, their swing or muscle memory are unable to adapt to...feel is the larger deterrent in fitting...but the span is always where to start
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Sounds like you all are disregarding the " Proper" way to hold a ball. Used to have a lot of success with folks showing them a proper "hold" and release versus a "cookbook" fitting.
A long overlooked issue of BTM had articles on "fishhooking" the fingers and "setting" the thumb. Those two articles should have been required reading for bowlers and especially ball "fitters".
But in all fairness, trying to fit a lady with a weak wrist versus a gorilla with crocked wrist
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There is a HUGE difference between reading an article and knowing how to fit as well as the difference between a static fit vs a dynamic fit...the proper way to fit a person is to fit them not a book or a by a fad...fish hooking, using your term, would more than likely delay the fingers causing possible tendon damage from the pulling effect...understand they are angles and no two hands are alike
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Fishhooking is simply a descriptive term explaining more firmness with the fingers while relaxing the thumb.
The starting point 4/0 is consistent with Bill Taylor's chart, as is the 1/8 1/16 adjustments. These charts give you a good starting point but ultimately, every bowler's hand is different. As a result, adjustments have to be made based on the bowler's hand and what the desired result is.
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There's got to be more to this than a simple formula.
The cut-to-cut measurement of my span comes out at 4 3/16. That suggests reverse pitch is needed. But I have always had a problem dropping the ball, squeezing it, etc. As a result I now have some chronic wrist issues thanks to 20+ years of having an ill fit.
About 2 years ago, I made a big move and went from 1/8 reverse in the thumb to 3/8 forward. I noticed an immediate improvement in the pain (or lack thereof) I had in my wrist and hand. But over the last three months or so, I've found myself having a problem again with dropping the ball and feeling the need to squeeze it to hold onto it.
I'm about to take a couple of balls and go from 3/8 forward to 11/16 forward and see what happens.
What hasn't changed over this time is the overall span. Regardless, according to Taylor's work, I never should have gone to forward pitch to begin with. However, there's no doubt it felt better and took some stress off my hand/wrist in the process.
Jess
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There's got to be more to this than a simple formula.
The cut-to-cut measurement of my span comes out at 4 3/16. That suggests reverse pitch is needed. But I have always had a problem dropping the ball, squeezing it, etc. As a result I now have some chronic wrist issues thanks to 20+ years of having an ill fit.
About 2 years ago, I made a big move and went from 1/8 reverse in the thumb to 3/8 forward. I noticed an immediate improvement in the pain (or lack thereof) I had in my wrist and hand. But over the last three months or so, I've found myself having a problem again with dropping the ball and feeling the need to squeeze it to hold onto it.
I'm about to take a couple of balls and go from 3/8 forward to 11/16 forward and see what happens.
What hasn't changed over this time is the overall span. Regardless, according to Taylor's work, I never should have gone to forward pitch to begin with. However, there's no doubt it felt better and took some stress off my hand/wrist in the process.
Jess
Changing pitch does not dictate changing span. I am IBPSIA certified and use there system. With IBPSIA, a 4" span is 0 for forward/reverse pitch. This is just a starting "reference" and not the bible. From there you add/subtract due to flexibility, skin moisture, length of thumb. If you have no thumb flexibility, you would not want excessive reverse as it puts your thumb in a nun relaxed position. If you have a short thumb, too much reverse will cause squeezing as your thumb has no issue clearing thumb hole. If you have extremely dry skin, excessive reverse will cause squeezing. Like I said, this is "reference" as everyone's hands are different. I have over 3000 fitting slips in my data base and probably would be hard to find two exactly the same as I fit to the persons hand and style of bowling.
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There are references & guidelines and then there is experience...fitting is part science and part art...you have to know how to blend the 2...
Nicely said Jody
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I'll follow up with some other information if it would help ...
The Coke bottle test has me appearing to need something between 0 and 1/4 palm-under. It typically ends up around 1/8.
That's what a former driller of mine attempted to do. I had always had 1/8 away (left lateral) pitch prior to that. But as soon as we went with under pitch, I started having pain in the thumb joint, and had some issues clearing the thumb. We had to switch back to 1/8 away.
In the years since, I've moved to 0, which is where I am now. The older I get (40 now) the more the Coke bottle test is calling for under pitch. It shows closer to 1/4 than it ever has. I'm wondering if I should combine more forward with a move to under pitch.
Jess
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Jess,
A move to lateral under and leaving your forward pitch could have you doing the Machuga Flop unintentionally!
IF I were going to go to under I would go be very careful to add some reverse to your current point. For each 1/16 under lateral I would add 1/8 reverse from your starting point at your extreme forward pitch. And please go slow! Be willing to add bevel as you try this.
Real world. When this going forward trend first started being talked about I would run into more bowlers trying it and talking about going forward as a goal! They would mention they had done it and note they now had a black line under the flat of their thumb! Warning nerve damage. I would add bevel using the Mo Pinel bevel tips and ring finger test and after a few weeks voila no more tingling or black line.
Sometimes two weeks off was necessary.
Jess. I have to say it is a long time. But it seems in picturing your wrist position from a long time ago it for a hook bowler was less cupped or even bent backwards compared to most other hook ball bowlers. This may be how you can go to such extreme forward in relation to your span.
Just Rico and the Perfect Pitch IPSIA poster are quite correct. Pitch is angle. Bill Taylor described the starting point of his pitch chart 4 1/4 was 0 Forward/Reverse and a 64 degree angle. The new chart from the IPSIA is 4 and 0. This is even a wider angle than Bill Taylor's old charts. The adjustments obviously the same. 1/8 more span = 1/16 more reverse.*
I find the Bill Taylor charts to be virtually perfect for me if I use my coke bottle test of 1/4 under palm lateral. (I use less lateral) Bill who I was fortunate enough to meet, believed in going forward for bowlers with all the adjustments mentioned by Perfect pitch. Dry thumbs, flexible thumbs, and short thumbs, need more forward, and the converse.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS ** the angle can be pictured by picturing a straight line from the front edge of the fingerholes to the front edge of the thumb and measuring the angle of the front surface of that thumbhole. Really can't be done on a ball but instead on a picture of paper. Using a circle of 8.5 inches.
http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/bowling-ball-specifications
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Just had a look discussion with a new driller about my fit and showed him what a Gold Medal teacher had for me spec wise.....he had me at zero lat and 1/4 forward for my 4 1/16 span...poor flexablity in both fingers and hand. While everyone else had me Reversed and left.
This new driller wants to go more forward, 3/8 and 3/8's left for a 4 1/4 middle and 4 1/16 ring. I asked him to not go as much forward and we settled on 1/4 forward. He also has my fingers at 5/8's rev for this fitting.
I get that nerve issue on the inside base of my thumb and I am worried that more forward without the proper bevel will only make it worse....thoughts?
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3/8 lateral out from a new driller while a gold medal teacher has you at 0 lateral? Why? You must have a stiff hand and a very flexible thumb.
In the range of bowlers lateral out that much has to be a 99.6% as far as how many bowlers are lateral out that much.
I have seen one bowler go that much lateral out from 0 out lateral. He has had marvelous results being down about 20 pins in average on house shot with a move to 5/16 lateral out from a 1/8 lateral out coke bottle test.
He says he is better on sport shots. I have never seen it.
Good Lucky.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS what is your Coke bottle test?
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Very few, if any on this website understand the difference between a static fit and a dynamic one...I have yet to see a bowler 'throw' a coke bottle down the lane
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3/8 lateral out from a new driller while a gold medal teacher has you at 0 lateral? Why? You must have a stiff hand and a very flexible thumb.
In the range of bowlers lateral out that much has to be a 99.6% as far as how many bowlers are lateral out that much.
I have seen one bowler go that much lateral out from 0 out lateral. He has had marvelous results being down about 20 pins in average on house shot with a move to 5/16 lateral out from a 1/8 lateral out coke bottle test.
He says he is better on sport shots. I have never seen it.
Good Lucky.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS what is your Coke bottle test?
Double L, I have a stiff, very little flexablity thumb, but my fingers are not as bad.
I did not understand your 99.6% comment
BG
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Rico,
Tell us how you perform your dynamic fit? Thanks,
99.6%, I have never seen anyone test at 3/8 out lateral ever. Especially after they have tested at 0 with a gold level teacher.
I have seen 3/16 lateral out, once that was a proper fit and great roll for the guy.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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I don't remember ever using over 5/16 right lateral (right hander). That guy could lay his thumb over perpendicular to his wrist and touch the pad of his palm. -- JohnP
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Maybe I miss explained....3/8 forward and 3/8 to the left when looking down at the holes...hope this helps because I think it came across 3/8's right or the thumb more under the palm, this is why LL asked me about a very flexable thumb.
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JustRico,
To understand your Dynamic fit concept do I need a subscription to something?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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JustRico,
To understand your Dynamic fit concept do I need a subscription to something?
Regards,
Luckylefty
http://www.bowlinguniversity.net/getmedia/9837cdf9-cc8a-4740-aaf5-459d5c2a77cc/Troubleshoooting-Grip.aspx