Post by: titletowncards on January 10, 2012, 02:56:33 AM
I've been thinking about changing my Thumb pitch. Right now I have a 1/2" of reverse pitch. Wow huh! Seems like a lot from what I here other people use.
I feel if I went to a little less pitch, I might be able to not only stay in the ball longer, but get underneath it a little bit.
For those of you with experience, what would be a next step for me as far as pitch?
Was thinking about 1/4" or 3/8".
Chris Orgeman 
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: Pdiddy on January 10, 2012, 11:40:57 AM
Post by: bannachb on January 10, 2012, 12:32:39 PM
Post by: Steven on January 10, 2012, 01:08:53 PM
Ron Clifton has some of the best bowling advise out there. Here is one of my favorite articles:
The article has more of an emphasis on span, but if you don't have that right, then optimal pitches (for you) won't matter.
But getting to thumb pitch, I was at 1/2" of reverse for many years. I had convinced myself I couldn't go more forward, but got there over time. After shortening my span, I first went to 1/4" of reverse for a while, and now I'm at 0". I've experimented with up to 1/4" forward, but I found 0" to be my sweet spot.
The trick is learning to relax your death grip and trust the ball won't stick on your hand. It doesn't happen over night, but stay with it. You'll be more versatile and consistent if your optimal pitch happens to be more forward.
Post by: titletowncards on January 10, 2012, 04:10:05 PM
My span is 4 3/8" to middle finger, 4 1/2" to ring finger.
I'm a lefty.
I shortend my span by 1/8" inch about 2 years ago.
My thumb and fingers are on the very flexible side compared to other peoples.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Edited by titletowncards on 1/10/2012 at 5:14 PM
Post by: titletowncards on January 10, 2012, 04:13:34 PM
I should also point out that I like to use the Vise Tapered Thumb Sleeve. I tried slugs and I just couldn't get a consistant release, sometimes stick, sometimes slip.
Even going to 7/16 reverse might make it better.
Sounds like were pretty similar.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: titletowncards on January 10, 2012, 04:17:34 PM
Thanks for the article!
I feel I have a very relaxed grip on the ball, so maybe it wouldn't take too much time.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: Strider on January 10, 2012, 07:52:56 PM
If your span is correct (that generally means relaxed today) and you learn not to squeeze the ball, you'd be surprised how far forward you can go if you want/need to. I'm living proof of that. I used 9/16" reverse for years. After working with Ron Clifton for a very short period of time, I'm now at 5/8" forward. If I pick up one of my old balls, I'm amazed at how hard I had to squeeze the ball just to hang on to it. Most people have been over gripping the ball for such a long time they're not even aware that they're doing it. It's second nature.
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive
Post by: ccrider on January 10, 2012, 08:45:28 PM
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: titletowncards on January 11, 2012, 01:04:49 PM
I'm going to plug a couple of balls and start with 1/4" reverse, I got kind of try out what that would feel like on the span measurer device that the pro-shop had and it seems about right.
Thanks for the advice everyone! I'll report back my results if anyone cares to here them.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: Steven on January 11, 2012, 01:15:51 PM
It's probably overkill for you, but if you use Turbo Switch Grips, you can drill slugs with up to 1/4" pitch variance for a given thumb hole drill. I found this very useful when I was experimenting and going back and forth between 1/4" reverse and 0".
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 11, 2012, 03:10:09 PM
A great place to start is 1 1/2 inches forward. You don't have to worry about your release, you don't have to worry about carry.
Have a thick mat 5 feet over the foul line and an ambulance on call. Bon Apetit!
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS your hold on the ball should be pretty good with the above pitch.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: titletowncards on January 11, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
lmao! My driller said something similar, very nice!
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: titletowncards on January 11, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
That's a good thought, I actually did try an IT Grip earlier this season and didn't like the feel, couldn't get a consistent release, so went back to tapered sleeve's. I think my thumb texture or whatever it might be just doesn't match up. I wish it would have worked, I gave the "IT" a solid try, it was pretty convenient.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 11, 2012, 09:23:28 PM
Hey...I've been fooling around and spoofing on many of these posts on forward reverse thumb pitch for awhile.
Maybe it is time to get serious! You seem like a nice guy and a fellow lefty ....why don't I share some thoughts that would be helpful and serious.
The fact of the matter is that for league shots being a no thumber is best. We all love their roll it creates so much area on a league but we don't always admire their accuracy(especially on this site).
The thing we note is the apparent large separation between thumb fingers release gives lots of revs. Many of our house kings also have the same thing....a release where the thumb gets out so far before the fingers and then that long time that the ball stays on the fingers creating revs, ideally 45 degree side roll, and the resultant area.
One of the really smart guys on this site (BullRed) used to be his name used to talk about a combination of pitches for a righty like 5/16 reverse and 5 /16 right that would seem to make one have a release that looked similar to a no thumber. The reverse gets the thumb out quicker the lateral right keeps the thumb in longer and wraps the hand more around the ball to create a roll similar to no thumber.
For a span of 4 1/4 the normal forward reverse is 0. For 4 1/2 the normal reverse is 1/8 For 4 3/4 the average reverse is 1/4.
You have been put into so much reverse for a probable reason by your driller,, either a stiff or long thumb or sticky thumb(wet). Moving gradually forward is not a goal in itself but is a goal if one is dropping, or if one is knuckling then a slight move forward is called for.
BUT the goal of a proper release is to create the earliest thumb release and the greatest separation without the above conditions that create bad roll or thumb injury problems.
I know of many a 215 or 220 average bowler who in seeking to get better on sport and difficult conditions have gone to thumb lateral out pitches and much less reverse or even forward for the thumb. The result has often been a decrease in separation between thumb and fingers and less getting the hand around the ball and decreased axis rotation.
This can work on sport conditions where one goes straight up the boards and needs to play a very confined area of the lane. However these same setups often lower league averages or freeze improvement on league and raise the sport average.
One approach I really liked of one of our former quite regular posters(Jim Ensminger) I believe(a phenomenal league and tournament bowler)....was to have two sets of balls. Balls with lateral under and a bunch of reverse for league and then another set of balls with less lateral under and less reverse for tournaments where less area and less hook was sought!
I thought that was a very intelligent approach.
Hope these ideas have some use for you.
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 1/11/2012 at 10:29 PM
Post by: JustRico on January 11, 2012, 09:32:49 PM
Having the flexibility to go with forward pitch is not what is important...what is important is the angle the ball is releasing off the thumb. It has to be the correct angle or it is defeating the purpose. Guys think that reverse is bad and the more forward you can use the better....this is a false statement...it is all predicated to the proper release angle to create the proper amount of rotation. I have seen to many players go with the trend of forward and all it did is allow them to throw the ball more but it staying on their hand longer. The ball still has to release on the down or bottom of the swing. For the most part forward pitch makes you release it on the upswing. Also remember bowling on a THS you are afforded a certain amount of free hook area which allows more freedom with a faultier release.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: John D Davis on January 11, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
Justrico, I dont entirely agree with what you have just said... I am living proof and have experimented with numerous players, etc.
I feel like the length of a players thumb may dictate how much forward pitch is needed on the thumbhole. I think all players should have at least 1/4 inch forward and your shorter more advanced players will need around 1/2". I was at 1/2" reverse around 6-7 years ago when I met Ron Clifton, and although it took me quiet some time to master the fee of forward pitch, as Strider as stated, I cant just pick up any ball now and go roll it.......
The first thing before even considering a pitch change is to check your span to see if its not to long. Place your thumb in the ball, relax your hand onto the ball and just lay your fingers right over the finger holes. Your finally span should be at least a 1/8 shorter than your last finger joint. If a player doesnt use inserts, then he should be able to place his thumb in the ball first and then slide the fingers in. Now that is the most relaxed fit a bowler can have. Inserts is a little tougher to do that because of the initial tightness of the grips.
Titletowncards, your span must be to long,etc. for you to think that you have almost a relaxed fit at the 1/2" reverse. If you are wanting to go with less reverse pitch then you MUST shorten the span or you are going to have problems! If you want to go from 1/2" inch reverse to 1/4" reverse then I would say you may need a good 1/16" inch shorter if not 1/8" on your span before attempting it. You will notice though with the correct span adjustment with less reverse, then you may not even see a change of release. I can go on and on about this but do you understand what I am saying?
If you dont do what I am saying here and go with forward pitch then thats ok, but do yourself a favor and check your own span by laying your fingers relaxed above the holes. If you immediately see that the total span is longer than your last crease of the fingers, then thats a for sure way to tell if your stretched. 99.999999999% of all bowlers in the world will not have the perfect grip. Those few of us that do can benefit is so many ways you wont believe.
Dont bash me for saying this please. I am just telling you about not only my trial and error but I am speaking of all the people I have helped in the past. I have brought forward pitch to hundreds of bowlers, and while they may struggle at first, they always addapt and get used to the feel. Thanks, John
Post by: titletowncards on January 11, 2012, 10:54:13 PM
Thanks Luckylefty and John D Davis below.
I'm glad that there are people on here like you guys on here to give me honest advice. I don't take offense to any of your thoughts or I wouldn't have asked.
I have checked my span and it good.
I guess it's a relaxed grip for me, lol. I got started seriously bowling in the early 90's and getting your thumb out ASAP was the priority.
Over the last 3-4 years I've shortened/relaxed my span a bit but haven't changed my thumb pitch. The main reason for my impending thumb pitch change is so that I can stay in the ball longer. I feel like I'm missing the ball on the bottom too many times. I have not "mastered" a totally relaxed grip, but I do like how it feels, I've had no wrist/thumb/finger issues other than occasional blisters or skin tearing from inserts after long days of bowling but who hasn't.
I did forget to mention that we are shortening my span also to accommodate the pitch change, I believe 1/8" was suggested by my driller.
Who knows, maybe in a couple of years I'll be one of those "forward pitch" guys.
Thanks again!
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 12, 2012, 06:23:34 AM
John Davis,
I did not get out of Rico's post that going forward was the answer. I thought he said the goal was to have the proper angle and release.
As to powerful releases...I have always believed the most powerful releases allow one to create area on house conditions. Of course the BEST releases have both accuracy AND Power.
The weaker releases are often relegated to doing their higher scoring relative to the field usually on sport, or as I call it confined area bowling.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I don't think the goal is forward pitch. I believe the goal is a great release. Most guys going to dramatic forward are shortening the span and then taking out the slack by going forward with the thumb pitch and then taking out the overturn by going lateral out. But what is the goal, to be forward? Or to have a great release on multiple conditions?
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited by LuckyLefty on 1/12/2012 at 7:26 AM
Post by: JustRico on January 12, 2012, 06:23:50 AM
John all I can say is...if you feel every player should have at least 1/4 forward, you are making a blanket statement...you CANNOT make a statement such as that when fitting bowlers....where you have fit hundreds, I have fit thousands for years and I approach every bowler as a NEW bowlers and look at their games and their fits and go from there. I would NEVER start by THINKING 'well I am starting at X (1/4") and going from there'.
A 1" hole drilled into the ball for a 4" span has a different center and angle than a 1" hole drilled for a 4 1/4" hole. By stating that you give everyone a certain angle is not knowing how a hole goes into a round object...that is why it is not a pitch but an angle.
Again the angle of the thumb is not only for staying in the ball, it is also so the ball releases at the proper point in the swing motion and at the proper angle onto the lane.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Edited by JustRico on 1/12/2012 at 10:01 AM
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 12, 2012, 09:43:20 AM
There really isn't a whole lot of guys on the pro tour that use forward in their thumb holes. You would be suprised that most players use the average amount of reverse that best fits their span/thumb angle. Even on Norm Duke's video he briefly talks about how he doesn't like forward pitch and the effects on the release.
This all started when a few people came up with the idea that it was easier to hold a baseball in your hands than a bowling ball (for lack of a better anology), and came up with the idea that smaller spans and forward pitches make it easier to hold a bowling ball. This is somewhat true, but how practical is it when releasing a bowling ball is another issue.
Some bowlers tried it and like it. Their releases match up to the type of span and feel better than others. Giving all people "semi finger tip" (now it's called relaxed finger tip, since you use the semi-finger tip span as a finger tip) and forward pitches in the thumb is too much of a blanket statement. Not everybody is going to love this fit.
The term using less reverse these days, does not mean people are using forward pitch. The simply are using a little less reverse than they used to. Meaning people that used 3/8th might be using 1/4 today. Not this blanket statement that everybody uses forward pitch.
There is two blanket statements that get thrown around too much these days. You must use forward pitch, and you must use 15lb bowling balls.
I would suggest you visit a local IBPSIA pro shop, or visit the shop in your area that all of the better bowlers use.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 1/12/2012 at 10:48 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 12, 2012, 01:06:39 PM
I thought the above comments by XXX 300 12(??)
Are great! And right on! I believe that Just Rico always says....get the SPAN right first!
I say....Then fine tune the pitches that give you the best release.
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: John D Davis on January 12, 2012, 04:15:51 PM
I was just giving you guys my opinion and that was all. Granted there may be times when people prove me wrong,etc. But I have yet to have a player not like (non-reverse) pitch, whether it be zero or even a little forward.
I am one of the open minded people you will ever meet so dont take what I said the wrong way by any means. I am always willing to learn and provide the best bowling ball experience posible... I like to see and feel what people feel as I have done alot of testing on grips pressures so on. Thanks, John
Post by: titletowncards on January 12, 2012, 05:45:02 PM
Good discussion, I won't have my new pitch done in 2 of my balls done till Monday.
I'll report back with how it feels. My span is right on, I'm looking for the best release for me.
I won't say never, but I can't see myself liking a forward pitch ball. 1/4" reverse is my first try.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 13, 2012, 09:57:22 AM
I always think of forward or reverse as being in relation to the 64 degree thumb angle tables that Bill Taylor developed.
That table has 4 1/4 span have a 0 degree forward reverse pitch and then add or subtract 1/16 pitch for every 1/8 increase in span(more reverse) or 1/8 decrease in span(less reverse more forward).
One thing I have noticed that most people with extreme forward should almost always do is add bevel if they go forward over a 1/4 from where they are while keeping the span the same. Especially underneath the flat of the thumb or front surface bevel. Many a black line and a "Tingling" or "Electric" sensation has been reported to me after a person goes forward and leaves everything the same.
Out comes the bevel knife and the ring finger test and voila....the pain starts to go away.
What go away is the reduced separation in time between thumb finger release.(can be good) if less lift is desired!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 13, 2012, 10:39:34 AM
I
have mine at 1/2" reverse and 1/4" away. It helps the ball get off of my hand quickly and clean. If yours is just a 1/2" reverse, then reslug the ball and try 1/4", it may not be as noticeable as you think.
"1 of 1."
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 13, 2012, 01:58:09 PM
I used forward for a while and got the "electric" or "tingling" sensation. Now it's something that I get regularly from time to time if the thumb holes are not right. Never had this problem before trying the forward pitch, and now it never fully goes away. I get it more in the winter than anything else, and sometimes when I throw a ball straight for spares I hit the nerve just right.
Even going back to 0 or reverse pitch at times gets the nerve, but it's much better than it used to be with forward.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 1/13/2012 at 2:58 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 13, 2012, 02:52:41 PM
A touch more bevel under the front flat surface should help it go away.
A few weeks of tingling with too much forward and not enough bevel can do some long term damage, but it often can be slowly eased out threw the proper treatment, part of which is bevel.
If you see a black line there after going forward STOP! Take a week or two off, add bevel or back to your proper Bill Taylor or former non hurting pitch.
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: titletowncards on January 30, 2012, 10:27:21 AM
Well, took 2 of my bowling balls and went to 1/4" reverse and tried it out.
I couldn't hang onto the ball at all, getting them plugged and drilled back with my 1/2" reverse as we speak!
I figured out that part of how I throw the ball is to hang onto the ball with the back of my thumb, it's very flexible and on the longer side.
At least I tried something new, a lot of people won't.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 30, 2012, 11:11:23 AM
Those are fascinating statements, usually going forward makes it easier to hold on and sometimes too tough to get out of.
Also fascinating seems to be that you are saying you are holding on with the BACK of your thumb? Your span must be too short!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Buckwild on January 30, 2012, 02:40:03 PM
Rico,
What is the proper release angle? Is this predicated on wrist position?
Post by: JustRico on January 30, 2012, 03:09:45 PM
it's predicated on each individual bowler and their release. It's meant in reference to blanketing pitches...and I hate the word pitch....it should be angle and the coordinating 'pitches' to acquire the angle. Whether it be a combination of left & reverse or right & reverse..it's still an angle. It needs to take into consideration the bowler's release as well as hand & other variables, alignment of fingers in regards to thumb and arm.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: titletowncards on January 30, 2012, 03:37:23 PM
I know, that's what I would have thought too, that's why I tried it. But then after practicing my new pitch, I went to a ball with my original pitch and it felt so good. I actually got pain in my thumb for 2 days after throwing the newly pitched balls. Doesn't make sense, but like someone on here said, it's whatever feels comfortable. My span has been checked regularly, I shortened it a couple years ago by 1/8", that's been money.
There's area on the back of my thumb, I see people put colored tape over it to help get out of the hole, and that is an area that helps be hang onto my ball. On occassion, that part of my thumb will develop a blister, but only after a lot of games and being humid out.
I guess if it don't hurt, don't fix it.
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: JustRico on January 30, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
if you are rubbing on the back of your thumb where you mention...you are squeezing or gripping the ball. This can be from too much reverse pitch, the span being too long or the ball too heavy. This can also lead to tendon damage if not addressed.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: titletowncards on January 30, 2012, 04:54:57 PM
Only slightly, but not enough to cause problems. I defiantly don't squeeze, I'm very aware of that.
My ball speeds about 15.5mph, everything feels good.
I've never had wrist, hand, thumb problems other than longer during formats, but who hasn't experienced some soreness after a long day on the lanes.
I have video's out there on Youtube if you want to watch me throw, mostly Motiv and Storm stuff.
Search titletowncards.
Thanks for all the replies, I think it's a very interesting topic. I drive my driller nuts with my reverse pitch btw!
Chris Orgeman
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: tburky on January 30, 2012, 04:59:48 PM
Edited by tburky on 1/30/2012 at 6:00 PM