Post by: pjr300 on November 18, 2005, 09:59:29 PM
Need a bit of help. I'm a tweener, medium speed, very accurate, avg 215-220 player. I use a 4x4 layout for heavier oil, and a 3" pin over ring CG in palm layout for medium. I am more effective when I don't have to swing the ball and can be more direct and up the boards for the first 40 feet to the break point.
My struggle has been when the lanes start to break down and the stronger stuff has to get put away. I have a tried going with a pearl for these conditions -- I purchased a new Backyard Bully last year in the same basic label drill -- but the result is not what I expected. I get length, but the backend reaction is very sharp, to the point that I actually have to move deeper when I pull out my pearl stuff! Not what I was looking for.
My question is this: what type of difference in reaction would I get if I moved the pin to an "over the bridge" position in the same type of ball? I did expirement with POB layouts a few years ago, but they were in very weak balls (Threat, the red Blazing Inferno) and the balls were marshmellows. So, in a stronger ball like an absolute or even the exact Backyard bully that I currently own, how much would that pin move --- about 2 inches right -- change the reaction in that ball?
Thanks folks...
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: charlest on November 19, 2005, 07:19:15 AM
Pins over the bridge help yo uget more length, but their larger effect is to make the balls more flippy and harder to control )Of course, when you're close, this helps provide a stronger hit.). Unless you have a lot of ball speed OR your release provides a measure of control, OR you have a very consistent release, I think you're better off using weaker balls with the pin in a "normal" position. For most people, normal is at or below the level of the bridge. For higher tracks, normal is at or above the line from ring finger to PAP.
What you might try if youw ant to experiment with a stronger ball is to put the pin in a weaker position,like in the 5.5 - 6" range. Pin under the middle finger can do something like this, DEPENDING on exactly where you PAP is,of course. With medium or weak pearls, in order to allow them to be used on a more direct line, you can try to place the pin in an early position, that is, 1.5" - 2.5" from the PAP, with the CG near grip center or at a 100 - 135 degree position (MB in or near the track). This normally reduces the overall hook and the backend.
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Bowling: Wish I could help me as much as I seem to help others ...
Life ... is what you make of it. No, really!
Edited on 11/19/2005 8:11 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 19, 2005, 07:34:58 AM
They will not recover as much from inside. Balls like a Super trooper also.
I never drill weak flaring balls super weak as they then seem to break free and miss the break point.
I have tried pin on or under bridge and cgs or mass bias out and like for you they are still flippy on stronger balls as the seem to sort of miss the breakpoint and then have a lot of energy to jump when they go!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I can move pins to about over my ring finger and still get control of the midlane and breakpoint and get some length.....anything farther usually feels like the miss the proper break flip you describe.
PPS also some guys love a 135 drilling...mass bias on TRACK on a pearl with a weaker pin under ring to get length and control and not have to move inside deep and yet carry from outside.
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 11/19/2005 8:25 AM
Post by: JohnP on November 19, 2005, 09:30:59 AM
quote:
My struggle has been when the lanes start to break down and the stronger stuff has to get put away.
Take a look at the Visionary Slate Blue gargoyle. -- JohnP
Post by: pjr300 on November 19, 2005, 09:57:23 AM
I thought that by putting the pin 5" from the PAP would be an alternative, but what it sounds like is that it would give me more length but with more snap. Is that right? Probably not what I need.
As previously mentioned, I've tried this layout on weak stuff and it did what Lucky Lefty says it will... roll past breakpoint, really never get into a strong roll, and hit poorly. I thought maybe a stronger ball may be a solution.
Would using this "normal" layout with a less snappy pearl (maybe something that has a symetricial core, for example, like a highly polished Freak-a-Zoid) be a good alternative?
John, I didn't realize anhyone but Hammer still made uerethane balls! An interesting suggestion.... thanks!
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Edited on 11/19/2005 10:11 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 19, 2005, 10:21:08 AM
For example on a ball like a Triple X factor with flare of .58 potential a pin position like that(above the bridge) is much the same as a 4 1/4 pin to pap on a ball like a flashpoint flare .42.
However most of the flare will be late as there is not much imbalance until the ball slows down....as pin is close to track. However an example I have is I put a pin over bridge on a hyde...flare .40 and a pin over bridge on a supercharge and the hyde almost breaks free and the supercharge never breaks free. Kicked out cg on super and lower rg core. Stacked cg on the hyde.
I have a friend using a Vertigo with a pin position over bridge who is always on side of ring with other balls and he is a new bowler! Because of coverstock and flare potential this ball does not break free and he likes a very small swing over second arrow....that fits.
here is a review that tells a lot about this issue.
Note this is from a high rev player!
http://www.bowlingballreviews.com/ballreview.asp?r=5143
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 19, 2005, 10:57:56 AM
However for me when applied to my pin over bridge Hyde...it is just like adding oil to the lane...It has slip agents therefore with pin over bridge it breaks free a bit.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: kingpin268 on November 19, 2005, 12:36:11 PM
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Bully Your Competition
Post by: JohnP on November 19, 2005, 05:46:20 PM
Post by: charlest on November 19, 2005, 05:59:37 PM
quote:
pjr300 -- Not only urethane, but the only urethane i'm aware of currently being made with a strong core. Compared to my 1980's version of the Black Hammer, it hooks a little more but hits a lot harder. "Try it, you'll like it." -- JohnP
I also have a Slate Blue and can recommend it.
Also I think the Columbia Scout Hi-Flare Urethane,
http://www.columbia300.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=186
has some very good potential. I have a version of that, the Trooper, a low flaring but dynamic cored 1/2 solid, 1/2 pearl urethane.
It's a little less expensive:
http://www.buddiesproshop.com/product/2149/Columbia+300+Scout+Hi+Flare+Urethane+Bowling+Ball.htm
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Bowling: Wish I could help me as much as I seem to help others ...
Life ... is what you make of it. No, really!
Post by: pjr300 on November 19, 2005, 09:57:39 PM
Wow! Thanks for all the responses!
Jeremy, good to hear from you! Hope all is well and that the car is found every day exactly where you parked it the previous night. I will look up Delayed Reaction and try it on the BYB tomorrow. That may get me what I need.
If the response is still too angular, I may try to pick up something used out here and expirement. LL, sounds like a PIB layout on a stronger, higher flare ball may worth a try. Your Vertigo story is compelling!
John, a lefty on my team still used a Burgungy Hammer and a Blue Dot as the center of his gear. He uses these two balls about 98% of the time. He has strong wrist, slower speed, and resin just goes crazy for him. He averages about 215-220 with these balls... he tossed a 300 with the hammer last month! But I'll share the Blue Gargoyle info with him.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: pjr300 on November 20, 2005, 03:57:36 PM
I may have found a solution!
I found a Storm El Nino Wrath on the rack today. It is polished max, 3 1/2 pin above ring and 1" to right, CG about 1/2" right... pretty close to my favorite layout. Used it up the track while practicing today and it goes long, hits great. With new grips and somee thumb work, maybe it's the solution. We'll see!
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: pjr300 on November 21, 2005, 05:44:51 PM
Boy oh boy I'd bet there is a LOT of people who would disagree with your opinion regarding pin position... like everybody.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: pjr300 on November 21, 2005, 06:28:39 PM
Deadbait, don't egg me on.
What you are saying is contrary to EVERY ball manufacturer... and probably article on ball layout in BTM, Bowler's Digest, and the others mags, as well as every person who posts in this forum.
I'll take your thoughts into consideration, but sorry, there is just way too much info to the contrary to put much credence in them. So, I guess I'll pass and just hang out in my "rocket ship" and bowl when it's my turn.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: pjr300 on November 24, 2005, 04:16:02 PM
bring-your-A-game shared some insight wit hme and recommended that I check out a Desert Heat. He suggested a 2-3" pin and placing it 4" from the PAP and the CG 3" from your PAP. A-Game states that:
"This will likely require you to drill your ring finger through the pin. You will need a small x-hole on your PAP to keep it in check. I have put a good number of these on the lane for guys with the same PAP and identical games to yours. They are all fairing very well when the breakdown occurs. This layout will allow you to stay in your track area and / or comfort zone without fighting ANY over/under reactions."
Since my release if a bit evolved over the past year, I don't use my threat. So, I may plug it and try this layout on it. stay tuned.
Note to John P... I have two of my teammates super interested in the Blue Gargoyle! Thanks for the tip! I'll let you know how they do with it.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Edited on 11/25/2005 11:34 AM
Post by: pjr300 on November 25, 2005, 10:51:16 AM
OK, folks, your thoughts on this layout:
Ball has a 3" Pin. I'd locate the pin about 2" above the ring. CG location is kicked right about 1.5 to 2" from the center line. In essence, it's about a 4x3 layout. I'd use my old Threat, which has a label 2x5 layout. Thoughts?
P.S. Here's a potential bonus: the old thumbhole may be able to double as a weight hole, given it's location. I may be able to recycle one finger hole as well. That'll save some plug work!
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: JohnP on November 25, 2005, 07:05:47 PM
quote:
P.S. Here's a potential bonus: the old thumbhole may be able to double as a weight hole, given it's location. I may be able to recycle one finger hole as well. That'll save some plug work!
No problem using the old thumbhole as a balance hole, if it turns out to be in the right place. But before you consider reusing a finger hole, check the pitches based on the new centerline. I think you'll find them to be considerably different from what you usually use. -- JohnP
Post by: Sawuser on November 25, 2005, 07:58:27 PM
quote:
The difference between a "pin" over ring finger to a pin over the "bridge" would only be in your mind. "Tweaks" in the pin position rarely have any effect on the ball reaction. Movements of the pin(3-4") will. The result of "tweaks" (small adjustments) are only noticeable with the ball surface.
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Deadbait, I have 2 blueberrys. One is 4" pin drilled pin over ring stacked. The other is 1" pin drilled label. Surface on both balls are the same, & I can hardly tell the difference. I bought the second one(pin in) to drill it up for earlier roll. Is what you are saying the reason I can hardly tell the difference? I thought maybe it was my imagination. Maybe I should have put the pin & cg closer to my pap for earlier roll??
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Didn't mean to hijack your post pjr, but similar to what's being discussed.
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Edited on 11/25/2005 8:50 PM
Post by: pjr300 on December 11, 2005, 01:03:17 PM
Update: I plugged my Threat. We placed the CG kicked out 2" right of center line. I placed the 3" pin about 4 1/2 from the PAP (just right of ring an inch above). The X hole (former thumb hole) is about two inches below the PAP and somewhat left.
Well, we had a real bad pair of Friday. Right lane broke down, and the left lane toast right away. I pulled out the Threat for the first time and it worked great. Once I lined up I had a great shot at the hole and carried well except for one 10 pin. Looks like I have a solution...thanks for all the help!!!
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: JohnP on December 11, 2005, 01:49:45 PM
Post by: pjr300 on December 11, 2005, 05:17:07 PM
John, not yet! I think they are going to pull the string this week.
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
Post by: pjr300 on February 25, 2007, 08:00:56 AM
P.S. Anyone know how I can view the original responses to this thread?
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
Edited on 2/25/2007 9:00 AM
Post by: pjr300 on February 25, 2007, 08:57:03 AM
I can get to 120 days.... not any longer....
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
Post by: Moon57 on February 25, 2007, 09:44:04 AM
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Dick
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So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on February 25, 2007, 01:24:12 PM
Edited on 2/25/2007 2:24 PM