Author Topic: 3 inch pin to PAP, I was furious! (Read 5887 times)

LuckyLefty · « **on:** July 09, 2003, 05:04:33 PM »

I remember about two years ago I asked a guy for label leverage.

I figure about 3 3/8 by 5 or 4 by 5!

I come in and the pin is about 2 inches from my ring finger
3 X 5! I'm po'd. this on a original Nighthawk reactive.

I don't throw it much, and one day I go in and throw practice at about 11 in a row I'm starting to notice. Hmmm this sure fits this wetter condition, hmmm.
At 17 in row I'm interested and then finally 21 out of 22.

But then I don't see that type of oil and the thing goes in the closet.

Yesterday I'm watching a slightly less handed righty throwing with three balls on a pretty wet headed not strong backend condition.

Brunswick Swamp monster, Purple or Violet Quantum 3 X 5 drill, and my old favorite Nighhawk but this one drilled with the usually more league friendly 4 1/2 X 4 1/2.

Well the Swampy is alright(the cover gets it going in the wetter heads), it lasks smash at the back. The Nighthawk is simply behind the headpin weak 10 after weak 10! Remember this ball worked great for me with a stronger pinon just this type of condition, now the ball is dogmeat!

The quantum reactive is just right! Almost just as much bite in the heads as the Swampy, with much more punch in the back!

Wow for the medium to weaker handed this sure looks great on sloppy head soup!

JUst might do one of these myself!

REgards,

LUckylefty
PS I just had an email on this subject from Curly, I replied I didn't like this drilling on a strong particle ball like a EZ Money! I think with particles a high chance for burnout and ball being only a specialty item(super soup!), but on a solid reactive, hmmmm?!???!!!!

C-G ProShop-Carl · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2003, 08:49:57 AM »

Lefty,

I wanted to ask something real quick. Label leverage---3 3/8 poin and cg in palm, correct? OK, I do know that 3 3/8 x 3 3/8 is supposed to be the most hook(flare) you can get, right?

So in moving the cg into the palm, what does that do vs having it closer to the PAP? I have heard that static weights are a very small factor in the ball reaction. Mainly go on the pin and MB locations vs the location of your pap.

thanks

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2003, 09:51:19 AM »

I have seldom put the cg on grip center.

Others do very successfully though.

For me it makes ball roll earlier because there is no side weight!
Usually I set up with ending side weight! NOt always though, (if no dry to outsides).

For me 3 3/8 X 3 3/8 needs a very blended condition 3 X 5 can work well on wet dry if played inside and swung out to dry!!!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS The early flare provides similar bite to Particle ball in the heads and the reactive cover provides more backend at the pin deck.

charlest · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2003, 10:58:27 AM »

quote:
So in moving the cg into the palm, what does that do vs having it closer to the PAP? I have heard that static weights are a very small factor in the ball reaction. Mainly go on the pin and MB locations vs the location of your pap.
thanks

Excaliber,

FWIW I do this on a few balls (maybe more than I should). I have found that with my rev to speed ratio, this helps reduce the backend. You do have to be careful about placing the pin too close to leverage, on some balls. Usually care must be taken with dull balls or solids & particles. They can burn up too early. It's great to tame flippy pearls or balls you would expect to go too long and then flip too hard. I suppose the Storm Too Hot would fall into that category.

I did this to the Fuze Igniter; mine is anything but flippy. In fact, I can't consider it anythign but a control ball now. I was very surprised given most of the reviews for this ball.

This drilling (3.5x5, 4x6) also works to help tame wet/dry conditions.
--------------------
"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2003, 01:01:30 AM »

quote:
Mo has an interesting diagram in the June BTM (p.. He's answering a reader question about good layouts for symmetrical cores (that's all I've ever thrown). He shows a picture of an essentially label ball with pin right of and slightly below the ring, CG on the midline, out about 1/2" from center of grip. He states "This layout creates the smoothest breakpoint for ... symmetrical-cored balls. Works well for wet/dry conditions for bowlers with a strong hand."

So I think he's agreeing with Lucky here, that it needs some side weight

What

? Someone agrees with Mo?

Whew get out the snowshoes guys because it's gonna get mighty cold around here... :-)

My Cherry Bomb is essentially a label leverage (3-1/2 x 4-1/2) and it plays very well on a house top hat pattern. Smooth ness at the breakpoint and strong roll thru the heads give a great read and strong mix.

I had a Deuce maxxed out like my X-it...3-3/8 stacked, strong RAD. I hated the ball. I could not get any consistency with it at all. Hook a ton on one shot, slide by the next time. When it did hit it sounded dead. My guess now is that it was bleeding off too early. Never tried polishing it as ...why do that I wanted a ball for oilier lanes. The guy I sold it to polished it and is loving life. Live and learn...eh?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Think about it....pins are wood, lanes are wood...
the weapon of choice is obvious...
CUT 'EM UP BABY it's BUZZSAW TIME!!!

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2003, 08:00:59 AM »

Ex,

I have found that a 3 inch pin to pap is very different from a 4 inch pin to pap.

The thing is flaring early in the heads and is working to hook all the way down the lane! Particularly more so in the heads.

The 3 inch pin to pap I observed on a quantum reactive vs a 4 1/2 inch pin to pap on a strong particle load Swamp monster almost handled the heads and mids the same.
What the reactive lacked in coverstock it made up for with early flare!

I see a big difference in oily heads and midlanes with the 3 inch pin to papfrom the 4 inch pin to pap which covers a much straigther trajectory.

What I like about the 3 inch pin to pap is that it has almost as much hit for me as a 3 3/8 pin to pap. While probably having better control than the 3 3/8, and it moves the breakpoint typically a little closer to the foul line.

REgards,

LUckylefty
PS I have found the 2 inch pin to pap to do a similar thing for me but often leads to less hit than the 3 inch pin to pap.

PPS regarding side weight. I'm aware of many studies by the pros and by brunswick that they say they can't tell the difference between a large range of sideweights. I have not found this to be true for me, I believe that probably most of the pros in the study are much faster in speed than me and this probably makes it harder for them to see ball reaction. WHereas for me this simple element often has a DRAMATIC effect on ball reaction. I am a ball reaction magnifier anyway! Slower speed, decent revs, sharp backend. I refer above to my need to typically have sideweight, unless I want to move the ball reaction closer to the foul line. Just recently took a sexy Demolition Zone that is overreactive to 0 side weight with a weighthole, will get back here with results.

louie · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2003, 08:47:04 AM »

I don't find such dramatic differences in ball reaction as you guys do. I have higher speed and a high track. I am a ball reaction minifier. All balls are clean through the heads for me. All balls arc at the backends for me. I usually only get about 5 boards different reaction between my strongest and weakest ball. I don't generate a lot of hook unless the lanes provide a lot of friction. I recently have tried to add a high rev release to my repertoire but that is another story. Regarding pin distances, I see little difference in reaction. 5 inch pin to pap gives a bit more skid snap. 3-4 gives a medium reaction. 2 inch pin to pap evens out the breakpoint for me. Surface prep makes 100X more difference in my ball reaction than pin position does. Regarding cg/mass bias placement, label leverage works best under most conditions for me. Stacked gives a bit more aggressive look. Cg kicked out at 45 degrees has always given me massive over under problems. Cg kicked way out gives the ball an early start with good control. For me this seems to have almost as much effect as pin placement. Side weight seems to have no effect. Thumb or finger weight does seem to effect the length the ball gets for me. I guess we are all just different.
Good Bowling.
--------------------

Why does everyone laugh when I bowl?

louie

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2003, 01:49:24 PM »

Louie, Charlest,

Exactly my point!

Low speed medium to high rev players see a lot of difference due to statics.

High speed players(most pros) see most difference due to coverstock, core and drilling.

REgards,

Luckylefty