BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: lefty50 on June 06, 2016, 11:19:40 AM
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A well respected bowling source told me yesterday that reverse finger pitch has absolutely no effect on revs.... I admit I was surprised... That's not what I remember hearing over and over and over.
Yes/no?
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Did the respected bowling source elaborate?
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A well respected bowling source told me yesterday that reverse finger pitch has absolutely no effect on revs.... I admit I was surprised... That's not what I remember hearing over and over and over.
Yes/no?
Does this mean you have been hearing that, if you have a grip and pitches that work for you and if you add more reverse to your thumb's pitch, you will automatically get more revs?
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If you're talking reverse in the thumb, excessive reverse would cause more squeezing which would result in a less than clean release.
When I was younger, I bought into the more forward pitch in fingers creates more revs hype but after switching to reverse in the fingers, I can't really tell the difference.
A good fit and creating the proper leverage with your body is the best way to increase revs.
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Proper fit plus proper execution equals more revs.
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Revs are created from the angular force applied by the fingers powered by the arm swing and wrist action. The pitch of the fingers can impact the amount of revs depending on the style of release. Gravity decreases the amount of force that fingers can apply to the ball on the upswing. Reverse finger pitch can make it easier to apply force at the bottom of the swing where the arm swing is at its maximum speed. My rev rate increased when I went to reverse finger pitch, because I was also working on lengthening the flat spot at the bottom of my swing so as not to hit the ball on the upswing. I found reverse finger pitch made it easier for me to transition from my hold hit up and lift style.
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Revs are created from the angular force applied by the fingers powered by the arm swing and wrist action. The pitch of the fingers can impact the amount of revs depending on the style of release. Gravity decreases the amount of force that fingers can apply to the ball on the upswing. Reverse finger pitch can make it easier to apply force at the bottom of the swing where the arm swing is at its maximum speed. My rev rate increased when I went to reverse finger pitch, because I was also working on lengthening the flat spot at the bottom of my swing so as not to hit the ball on the upswing. I found reverse finger pitch made it easier for me to transition from my hold hit up and lift style.
Is it possible for reverse pitch in the fingers to cause the ball to come off too quickly? I tried this with my Dad and he said it felt great but he just couldn't hold onto the ball at the bottom and it would drop off his fingers before he had a chance to turn it. I kind of feel the same way. If I go too much reverse I can't get around the ball like I want. But I know guys with 3/4 and 1" reverse and they have a ton of revs.
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Revs are created from the angular force applied by the fingers powered by the arm swing and wrist action. The pitch of the fingers can impact the amount of revs depending on the style of release. Gravity decreases the amount of force that fingers can apply to the ball on the upswing. Reverse finger pitch can make it easier to apply force at the bottom of the swing where the arm swing is at its maximum speed. My rev rate increased when I went to reverse finger pitch, because I was also working on lengthening the flat spot at the bottom of my swing so as not to hit the ball on the upswing. I found reverse finger pitch made it easier for me to transition from my hold hit up and lift style.
Is it possible for reverse pitch in the fingers to cause the ball to come off too quickly? I tried this with my Dad and he said it felt great but he just couldn't hold onto the ball at the bottom and it would drop off his fingers before he had a chance to turn it. I kind of feel the same way. If I go too much reverse I can't get around the ball like I want. But I know guys with 3/4 and 1" reverse and they have a ton of revs.
Don't forget that if you add reverse to the thumb or to the fingers, very often, but not always, you have to increase the span. Increased reverse can make the span too short and make it necessary to apply more gripping strength. If your ball fits perfectly before changing the pitch, you MAY need to increase the span to keep the perfect fit.
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Why does my timing suck so bad!!! I had a new Rocket ship drilled up today and had them change my finger pitches from 1/8 forward to 0. I asked the ball driller if that would effect my span and he said NO, but it surely did! I wish Charlest would have posted yesterday
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Why does my timing suck so bad!!! I had a new Rocket ship drilled up today and had them change my finger pitches from 1/8 forward to 0. I asked the ball driller if that would effect my span and he said NO, but it surely did! I wish Charlest would have posted yesterday
Hey, sorry, but it may or it may not affect the span. If your span is exact, precise for your hand, then changing reverse or forward in thumb and/or fingers MAY require a change in span for ease of fit and thumb release. It's hard to tell how much span change is needed for how much reverse. There are formulas.
If you add some bevel to the thumb hole, that can help as a temporary fix, if you're have trouble clearing your thumb hole. If the span is now too short, this shouldn't be a major change but even 1/8" can cause some difficulties. Take it back and explain the difficulties you're having and discuss it with him. Everyone's fit is different due to many factors.
Good luck.
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For what it is worth, when I went from forward to reverse pitch in my fingers I made a corresponding change from reverse to forward in my thumb. Doing this keeps the angular relationship between the thumb and fingers the same, and can alleviate the need to change your span. However, I have a very flexible thumb, and can throw just about any pitch I want in the thumb.
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Well OP, what are your thoughts?
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(sarcasm = on) My thoughts? It's about a normal topic thread. So far we've got yes, no, and maybe as responses, plus a hijack, plus enough psuedo science that I thought for a moment I was on bowlingchat.net by mistake.
(sarcasm=off)
Through personal experience, I believe increased reverse decreases revs by a small factor. However, I respect the source greatly, so will be changing back to enough reverse so the pads touch and see what happens (I have slow-mo software now and can observe the results personally). I appreciate the discussion, but like many things, it's interesting how much disagreement there can be on what should be a yes/no observation.
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It would be an interesting CATS test over the long-term with rev-rate etc.....it probably is a small effect (which was the question) but if the question is "does it have an effect", I would hypothesize yes.
I'm certainly in the proper fit is correct group, but if I felt like I was losing the ball or couldn't let go of it....that would have an effect.
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(sarcasm = on) My thoughts? It's about a normal topic thread. So far we've got yes, no, and maybe as responses, plus a hijack, plus enough psuedo science that I thought for a moment I was on bowlingchat.net by mistake.
(sarcasm=off)
Through personal experience, I believe increased reverse decreases revs by a small factor. However, I respect the source greatly, so will be changing back to enough reverse so the pads touch and see what happens (I have slow-mo software now and can observe the results personally). I appreciate the discussion, but like many things, it's interesting how much disagreement there can be on what should be a yes/no observation.
I think there are many variables. Going from a correctly spanned ball and then adding reverse, I think could reduce revs and make you have to squeeze more to keep the ball on your fingers. I feel that a lot of people that go to more reverse is to probably fix an issue with their fingers pressing on the back of the inserts. This can be caused by a long span. So if you are already fit incorrectly with a span that is too long, then the reverse in the fingers may be a considerable benefit to your fit and help you increase revs by relaxing your grip.
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(sarcasm = on) I appreciate the discussion, but like many things, it's interesting how much disagreement there can be on what should be a yes/no observation.
There is no absolute "yes/no" when it comes to thumb and finger pitches. Hand and release characteristics are mostly different from one person to another. A good friend has an almost identical size hand (in every respect) to mine, but our preferred pitches are as different a night and day.
There is no substitute for experimenting with different spans and pitches to find your personal sweet spot. Sure, there are good published starting points from which to start, but in the end, there is no absolute gospel.
Experimentation can be a painful journey, but there are no shortcuts. in the end, it's worth the effort.
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I have what some will say is a long span (5 5/8). I use zero pitch in the fingers, 1/2, 3/8, respectively side. I use 5/8 reverse in the thumb with 1/8 side pitch. (I've never used grips.) I'm aware of only one bowler whose span is similar in length, former touring pro Don Genalo. His pitches are different than mine, namely a zero pitch in the thumb and 1/2 side pitch; he's never been mistaken for a high rev bowler.
My rev rate is between 400 and 428. In my case, I need reverse pitch in my thumb. I've had ball drillers in the past who weren't used to span lengths like mine and drill my pieces as much as 3/8 short in span. I've also had ball drillers go with less than 1/2 reverse (like 3/8) in the thumb. In either case, not drilling my pieces correctly was uncomfortable, sometimes painful, and negatively affected my game because I couldn't get the ball cleanly off my hand.
Urethane Game said it best. A bowler who uses good mechanics and leverage can generate a good bit of rev rate based on their physical capabilities. It also helps when equipment is drilled to fit the bowler and it is comfortable for the bowler.
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I went from 225 rpm on CATS to 280 when I went to reverse on the fingers. No span change.
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I find the discussion of reverse or forward of 0 forward/reverse always as fascinating.
In setting up the thumb pitch tables years ago Bill Taylor and others found that the best angle for thumb release for the average thumb, in flexibility, dryness, and length of thumb was 64 degrees. This led to standard tables that said for that average thumb at 4 1/4 inch span that 64 degree angle was 0 forward reverse.
Variations in span for greater length than 4 1/4 resulted in that 64 degree angle being approximately maintained by adding 1/16 reverse for every addition of 1/8 of span.
Also the converse for spans shorter than 4 1/4, for every 1/8 shorter span start adding 1/16 forward.
Therefore for a big hand 5 5/8 Spencer Watts above(I've seen his big hands videos!) an addition of 1 1/4 inch span translates into almost exactly 5/8 reverse. This means Spencer and his big hands are at approximately 64 degrees! In all reality for a a 1 3/8 increase in span he is slightly forward of that 64 degree angle. But almost dead on! Neutral one might say to the tables. A 1/8 reverse position in a ball for Spencer Watts would be an extreme forward position in relation to his table recommendation(approx 64 degrees) of 11/16 reverse.
In my opinion all discussions of forward or reverse should be in relation to the tables.
Of course the modern trend for top bowlers is a little more relaxed span and as a result a little more forward than the tables. To increase holding power for the relaxed span!
Instead of "should I be forward or reverse" I believe the question should be, "should I be forward or reverse of the tables?".
Most people who move off the tables over 1/4 forward of an inch have to be very careful to add bevel under the front flat surface of the thumb to prevent the nerve damaging effects of these dramatic forward moves. I have seen these drills and helped bowlers add bevel in this spot to reduce the dreaded black line and jolt of electricity pinch and numbness that can result.
Forward/Reverse = forward of what?
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I went from 225 rpm on CATS to 280 when I went to reverse on the fingers. No span change.
But the well respected source says otherwise!!!! :P :P :P
For real though, it does answer the OP question. If you have it document on CATS I would consider that empirical proof.
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great post LuckyLefty
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Two points...
As a theoretical discussion, tables don't matter. As a practical application, yes, but as a theory, no.
Also, where can a person find the tables?
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I guess I can add that the source was Mike Jasnau and yes, I consider him well respected even though his opinion was different from mine and what I heard :)
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Two points...
As a theoretical discussion, tables don't matter. As a practical application, yes, but as a theory, no.
Also, where can a person find the tables?
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/4/41/Thumbanglechart.JPG
I believe this chart was created from the original Bill Taylor specifications and modified for the different thumb hinge flexibilities.
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I guess I can add that the source was Mike Jasnau and yes, I consider him well respected even though his opinion was different from mine and what I heard :)
I'm curious as to his argument.
The OP states that he says it "has absolutely no effect on revs".
avabob really kind of hits on what I would surmise with data (225 UP to 280). So what we're looking for is evidence that those finger pitches do/do not produce repeatable results with regard to effect (on revs). It would seem different finger pitches would have SOME effect (the degree of which is certainly up for debate), no?
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- I can confirm his reply was absolutely no effect. I wasn't expecting that which is why it stuck out.
- Thanks for the link J_W, but I'm getting 403. I'll try from bowlingchat to see why I'm denied
- Actually, I personally saw a small DECREASE in revs with additional reverse, which is why I started moving forward in the first place. With 5/8 and 3/4 reverse, I had pads on the grip, but I was coming thru the ball flat... Smooth, but DOA. With 1/4 on both I got a small but noticeable increase. As for changing span to accommodate the changes... OH YEAH. Done that enough that 2 pro shops are tired of me. Actually had one clown whose drilled on the tour tell me not to bother him any more until I "had my stats figured out"... I guess he doesn't need the money. Pure labor's kinda profitable, at least in my world. but that's another story.
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Just thought I'd throw this in:
Pitch changes to adjust ball roll . . .
This info is from a session with Mo Pinel and Del Warren. They do advocate pitch changes to adjust ball roll.
They start with what some here have called the "claw" grip. That is, a bowler's standard fit will include more forward pitches and a shorter span than has been the norm for many over the last few years. When the thumb is fully inserted and the fingers are laid across the holes, the edge of the hole/insert close to the thumb will be between the first and second crease/joint. They feel that a closed hand can remain more relaxed and still hold the ball without grabbing.
Once the "standard" fit is determined, adjustments can be made as follows (for right handed bowlers, lefties need to reverse the lateral adjustments) :
* To Increase Rev Rate - add 1/8 forward to both fingers and 1/8 reverse to thumb
* To Decrease Rev Rate - add 1/8 reverse to both fingers and 1/8 forward to thumb
* To Increase Axis Rotation and Tilt - add 1/8 left lateral to all three holes
* To Decrease Axis Rotation and Tilt - add 1/8 right lateral to all three holes
* To Increase Roll for low track players - Add 3/8 reverse to middle finger and increase middle finger span by 1/16. Add 3/8 forward to ring finger and shorten ring finger span by 1/16.
* To Increase Axis Rotation and Tilt for very high track players - Add 3/8 forward to middle finger and shorten span 1/16. Add 3/8 reverse to ring finger and lengthen span 1/16.
* Two or more adjustments may be combined for more dramatic results.