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Author Topic: Who Knows Layouts?  (Read 3091 times)

Jay

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Who Knows Layouts?
« on: April 29, 2008, 08:29:25 PM »
Does anyone here choose their own layouts for their equipment? I'm just curious because I've always left it up to my driller after telling him what I want the ball to do, but I've recently been trying to understand how to do it using Mo's Dual Layout System.

There's still quite a bit that I don't get, but I'm grasping the concept a bit. If anyone else knows much about how to do layouts, it would be helpful to share your experience.

Some things I'm really curious about: A) How would you go about getting the CG on left side of your grip(if you're left handed, it would be right side) during the process of laying out a ball and why would you want it there? B) How can you find the Mass Bias? C) What impact does the Mass Bias' location have on the ball's reaction, how can you find it, and how can you change it's location while keeping the same PAP to Pin distance and Drilling Angle(if possible)?
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BowlerKidR

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 10:36:07 AM »
Ive worked in a pro shop for about 4 years now so i would consider myself qualified to answer your questions.

A) Not really sure what you are talking about right here, but if i understand correctly, you are talking about placing the CG on the Negative side of the ball? Here is a pic of my No Mercy Beatn' which has the CG on the negative side of the ball, is this what you are referring to?
http://ryman624.googlepages.com/Mercy2.JPG
If this is what you are talking about, well there are a few reasons for this and it can get a little complicated for someone who doesn't know too much about layouts, but I will give it a go as simply as i can.

1) If you are laying the ball out so that the drill pattern is 5x5, that is, pin is 5 inched from PAP and CG is 5 inches from PAP, and your PAP measurements are less than 5 inches lateral (to the right if you are a righty or left if you are a lefty), then measuring 5 inches over from your PAP will put the CG on the negative side of the bowling ball.

2) With the case of my No Mercy Beatn', we dont take the CG into account at all. With the Beat'n, there is a specific drilling that is recommended to use to get the most out of the bowling ball. That drilling is to keep the Mass Bias (which is the Heart with a white pin in it on this particular ball) on the negative side of the ball, specifically located on the start of your track. Because this is the recommended layout, some balls will have the CG on the negative side of the ball, like mine has. This is OK to have on high end equipment because you deal more with the Mass Bias than you do with the CG.

3) With other bowling balls (not including the No Mercy line or The One line), placing the CG (and or the MB) on the negative side of the ball will create an early rolling ball motion.

B) Mass Bias. Mass Bias can be found three different ways. The first way is to purchase a high end bowling ball, which has the Mass Bias already marked on the surface of the ball, like my No Mercy has. The way to locate the Mass Bias on a mid line bowling ball which does not have a mass bias rating because its core shape is Symmetric is to draw a line from the pin through the CG which is 6 3/4 inches long. That point would be your invisible mass bias.

C) With the high end bowling balls, the Mass Bias location will depict, for the most part, your bowling balls reaction on the lane. This is where it can get confusing because there are many factors in laying out the bowling ball, and three different ways in which you can move the mass bias to dictate ball reaction. To give a quick run through, picture a bowling ball. On one side of the ball you have your PAP. Now imagine that PAP directly on the other side of the ball, this is your NAP, or negative axis point. The closer you shift the MB towards your PAP, the earlier your ball will begin to pick up its roll. As you shift the Mass Bias towards the middle point between your PAP and NAP, you will create more backend snap.

If you are changing the location of the Mass Bias while laying out the ball, you will be changing both the Degree angle and Mass Bias to PAP distance, but the Pin to PAP does not have to change. The tools available to pro shop owners and regular Joe Schmoe's are what will help you keep your Pin in the same distance while shifting your Mass Bias. Basically, then laying out a ball, you can take a Quater Scale, place the 0 marking on the pin, place your greece pencil on the number which you want to utilize as your Pin to PAP distance, and draw an arc. Now your Pin to PAP distance is set at whatever distance you please. Now all you have to do is decide how far you want your Mass Bias to PAP to be, and draw an arc the same way, and where the two arc's intersect is your PAP. So you can change the Mass Bias to wherever you want it once you have the arc for the Pin to PAP drawn on the ball.
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"Strike for show, spare for dough"
Im A Hammer Head 100%
http://ryman624.googlepages.com
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JohnP

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 11:00:17 AM »
quote:
2) With the case of my No Mercy Beatn', we dont take the CG into account at all. With the Beat'n, there is a specific drilling that is recommended to use to get the most out of the bowling ball. That drilling is to keep the Mass Bias (which is the Heart with a white pin in it on this particular ball) on the negative side of the ball, specifically located on the start of your track. Because this is the recommended layout, some balls will have the CG on the negative side of the ball, like mine has. This is OK to have on high end equipment because you deal more with the Mass Bias than you do with the CG.


Ebonite's No Mercy and No Mercy Beat'n use an unusual layout system.  The HART marking on the ball is not the mass bias.  It is actually rotated 90 degrees from the true mass bias.  If you want to see where the true mass bias on your ball is located, draw a line from the HART mark through the pin.  Then draw a second line through the pin and 90 degrees from the first line.  The true mass bias will be 6 3/4" down this line.  For your ball, that will be near or past the VAL in the positive thumb section.  I don't think you'll see this system used any more, I've been told it was developed in case the USBC was successful in banning the use of balance holes, so the balls would look more "normal" (using the true mass bias puts the cg way out of line on the left of the pin to mb line).  --  JohnP
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JessN16

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 06:38:00 PM »
quote:
Ebonite's No Mercy and No Mercy Beat'n use an unusual layout system.  The HART marking on the ball is not the mass bias.  It is actually rotated 90 degrees from the true mass bias.  If you want to see where the true mass bias on your ball is located, draw a line from the HART mark through the pin.  Then draw a second line through the pin and 90 degrees from the first line.  The true mass bias will be 6 3/4" down this line.  For your ball, that will be near or past the VAL in the positive thumb section.  I don't think you'll see this system used any more, I've been told it was developed in case the USBC was successful in banning the use of balance holes, so the balls would look more "normal" (using the true mass bias puts the cg way out of line on the left of the pin to mb line).  --  JohnP


John,

Thanks for posting that. I've been looking for someone to explain that freaky system ever since it came out.

Jess
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JessN16

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 06:51:54 PM »
quote:
Does anyone here choose their own layouts for their equipment? I'm just curious because I've always left it up to my driller after telling him what I want the ball to do, but I've recently been trying to understand how to do it using Mo's Dual Layout System.

There's still quite a bit that I don't get, but I'm grasping the concept a bit. If anyone else knows much about how to do layouts, it would be helpful to share your experience.

Some things I'm really curious about: A) How would you go about getting the CG on left side of your grip(if you're left handed, it would be right side) during the process of laying out a ball and why would you want it there? B) How can you find the Mass Bias? C) What impact does the Mass Bias' location have on the ball's reaction, how can you find it, and how can you change it's location while keeping the same PAP to Pin distance and Drilling Angle(if possible)?


I've just recently started drilling my own stuff, but I've been involved in my layout selection for 10 years or more. I usually arrived at what I wanted by having a cooperative discussion with my driller -- and I stayed away from drillers who weren't open to talking about it.

If you're getting into the Dual-Angle Technique, I'd say that's a good move on your part. I've found it does exactly what it says it does. Unless I'm drilling up something that (a) I already know what look I'm after, or (b) something from Lane #1 (I could still probably use DAT to drill Lane #1 balls, but I've found them to be tricky over the years and I'd rather not risk it) and go straight off a drill sheet instead, I'll use the DAT. It's really intuitive once you understand it.

To answer your questions,

A) Depending on how much credence you give to whether CG matters or not, it might not matter where it ends up at all, except in whether the ending statics are legal. On a MB ball, ending static legality is virtually the only issue (unless there is something up with pro CG equipment that I don't get yet; I've never drilled a pro CG ball). On a symmetrical ball, the virtual MB is found by drawing a line from the pin through the CG 6 3/4 inches, which is what I expect is in play for people who claim the CG matters (i.e., you're moving the MB point by moving the CG). I've never really been able to tell a difference unless the CG was left or right by a bunch -- I have a Track Threat drilled CG-axis and it definitely is different from a "normal" drill.

B) MB is marked on most assymetrical balls and can be found on the unmarked assyms (like Storm's La Nina) or a symmetrical ball by doing what I mentioned above.

C) I've found MB placement makes a significant difference. The Cliff's Notes answer is that the further away from the VAL you go, towards the track side of the ball, the weaker the MB placement *to a certain point*, then it starts getting stronger again. Lots of good info on the Internet on MoRich's site and other professional sites will explain it for you. Here's a site that explains part of the process; scroll down to the second diagram: http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/mario/mario_315degreelayout.htm

To the second part of your question about keeping distances the same, etc., I think if I'm reading it correctly, yes, it's very possible to keep the same pin-to-PAP distance and move the MB, but that's going to change one of the two angles using the DAT.

Jess
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Jay

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 09:23:25 PM »
Thanks for your responses guys.  I think if i'm understanding this a bit more, cg placement isn't really a factor when laying out a ball, but it's placement after drilling may or may not cause the need for a weight hole.  Let me know how far I'm off.

Jesse, I think it's really cool that you've learned to layout your own equipment fairly well and without actually working in a pro shop(guessing) at that, and starting to drill too.  I hope to be able to lay out my own stuff with confidence in the future.

I was actually hoping the Drilling Angle and angle to the VAL would stay the same when the MB is moved.  But since one of them changes(How do you know which?), I guess that means the MB and the angles are related in the sense that the angle determines where the MB is or vice versa.  Does that sound right?  I'm not quite grasping the concept of how the MB is "moved", but I think it's "moved" to a certain spot depending on where the holes/track/VAL are.

Also, I was wondering if the No Mercys are the only balls with their MB mismarked, or if all balls with a marked MB need to have that formula(90* from pin-cg line) used to find the real MB.
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JohnP

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 09:34:58 PM »
As far as I know, the No Mercys are the only asymmetrical balls that deliberately are marked at a point other than the true mass bias.  --  JohnP
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micbowl

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 11:28:30 PM »
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Goof1073

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 07:52:10 AM »
Actually John there were other balls in the past that had Mass Bias's that where not marked normally...Examples (from memory):

- Tombstone = Bombs Away Technology
- Omega = Odd ball compass patterns
- Phantoms = I don't recall them being marked in the same manner (but it's been a long while).

BowlerKidR...you said there where 3 methods for determining the MB of a ball but only listed 2.  There is also the use of a device called a "determinator" that spins the ball such that the ball rotates / stabilizes on the MB of a ball.

Answers to Question A) While everything effect something a little bit, CG placement is generally just a weight hole indicator.  On a symmetric ball most folks twist the CG to give the ball a desired amount of side weight...either so that a weight hole has to be drilled or so that one can be drilled (to tweek reaction) without having a high amount of negative side weight.
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JohnP

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Re: Who Knows Layouts?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 10:54:38 AM »
And it was mentioned in another thread that the Visionary balls with the AMB core are also marked in a location other than the true mass bias.  --  JohnP
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