BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: channel surfer on February 10, 2004, 11:03:19 PM
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I just got to thinking. They say that positive side weight will make more length and a more aggressive backend, and that negative would hook sooner, with a weaker backend.
How can that be? By creating positive sideweight, your shifting weight towards your axis(which creates a earlier roll). So can someone please explain this. I just started thinking about it, and its mind boggling.
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your PAP faces you going down the lane. that is the important thing.
that wt is rotating around an axis that is greater than 0( tilt) the dynamics make the wt want to reach Zero. so the ball skids further then Tuns over into a roll into the pins.
neg wt will be below 0. so it is initial pulling the ball forcing roll. then as the balls rotation will try and bring it up but will do smoothly and late.
that is why a 105 deg layout with the CG is a good control layout that gets down lane and does not react so violent to the dry.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny
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quote:
your PAP faces you going down the lane. that is the important thing.
No, if your axis rotation is 90º, it will be facing you. I'm around 45º, so its not really pointing at me.
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if an axis bisects a plane then 1 half the ball if facing one direction( towards bowler or the pocket as it were) and the other half faces away from bowler( towards the corner pin)
that is for 0 thru 90 deg. that did not mean only visually but spatially as the ball travels down lane.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny
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hey Brian, maybe I confused myself or was unclear. the neg weight would mean more if the cg is on the neg side of the ball vs just drilling out wt.
My thinking is a neg cg placement means the core is in a different position and on the Neg. side of the ball.
at least the result I see on the lane with reactive equipment drilled with CG on the neg are very stable early midlane reads with a continuos path through the pin deck instead of snap off the dry.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny
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I agree that with a ball with a mass bias the CG means nothing. But from experience, two balls without MB have sharper breakpoints if the CG is kicked out. I have read your posts with T-GOD and it seemed that you two are very knowledgeable on the subject. Please elaborate. Thanks!
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CS,
quote:
They say that positive side weight will make more length and a more aggressive backend, and that negative would hook sooner, with a weaker backend.
quote:
How can that be? By creating positive sideweight, your shifting weight towards your axis(which creates a earlier roll). So can someone please explain this. I just started thinking about it, and its mind boggling.
It's mind boggling because what you've been taught (shifting weight towards your axis creates a earlier roll) is WRONG..!!
That's why Brian says... quote:
don't confuse yourself with static weights.(side...)
He's confused, because he doesn't know how they work or what they do..!!
You know that pos. side weight makes the ball go longer and/or has more backend. This has been know for years. this was true in the 3-piece pancake core days, as well as today. The LAWS DON'T CHANGE. They might not mean as much today, but, THE RULES STILL APPLY..!!
You also know that having positive side weight means that the weight is closer to your PAP. I've explained how you might think that axis weight/weight closer to your PAP rolls earlier in another thread. But, I'll post it here for you to read also...
Most of the time, we're bowling on a wall, with carrydown. A wall means a wall of dry boards to the right. So, what happens is the ball will go somewhat long, when it hits the dry, then it hooks hard.
The dry outside is so short, all the way to the foul line, that all you see is the ball hooking. That's why you think a pin axis hooks early, but in reality, the whole lane is hooking early.
When the oil carries down, because pin axis goes long and/or more positive side weight goes longer, it never hooks. This is why you don't see the reaction on the backend with a pin axis drilling.
Now, if you had a blended lane condition, that was fairly dry, you will see that the pin axis drilling goes longer, and, also hooks harder/more on the backend.
If you were using a leverage weight drilling on this condition, you will notice that it hooks earlier, and it will roll out. The pin axis drilling, along with the ending CG on the axis (more positive side along with very little top) will allow you to swing the ball wider, covering more boards, and never rolling out.
Like I said, the reason you don't see pin axis drillings hook on the backend, is because the oil is too long and/or too much carrydown, so the ball goes too long before it hooks.
C-Surfer, hopefully this helps. =:^D
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Thank You Brain for clearing this up.
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quote:
quote:
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You know that pos. side weight makes the ball go longer and/or has more backend. This has been know for years. this was true in the 3-piece pancake core days, as well as today. The LAWS DON'T CHANGE. They might not mean as much today, but, THE RULES STILL APPLY..!!
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I agree with that.
OK great. Now, what does positive side weight mean..? It means that the ending CG (weight) is on the positive side of the ball. That means the WEIGHT IS CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!
As I've been saying all along, weight closer to your PAP MAKES THE BALL GO LONGER..!!
Weight farther from your PAP, is closer to your track and makes the ball roll earllier..!!
When you have zero side weight and only top weight, the weight/ending CG is in your palm, which is closer to your track. A ball with zero side wieght hooks earlier, and rolls smoother/hooks less at the end, than a ball with 3/4 oz. side weight.
Now if you agreed with my above statement, up there in quotes, which you said you did, then you have to agree with the rest of my statements in this post.
You better think hard about what you've said, and figure everything I've stated out, because I don't want you agreeing with everything I say, without you really believing it's true..!!
Remember, this has nothing to do with core position, because that will be a constant. Everything I've stated about weights is in addition to whatever core position you choose. =:^D
Edited on 2/12/2004 10:57 PM
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Well, I have balls with pin closer to my pap that hook earlier, then the balls with pin closer to track. Now, this is the same lane condition. The only ball i have that has + side weight is my WOW, now, and it has medium length. The ball is drilled Stacked. Pin 3 3/8" from pap.
If we had a ball where CG was on the Pin, and drilled it axis, then yes, it will not hook that early nor will it flare much because the core is in a stable position. Now move the pin half way between your pap and track, you have maximum flare, and mid lane hook, with a angular backend.(at least with my experiments with my equipment.)
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Brian and Chanel Surfer,
Don't waiste your time with T-GOD all you are doing is helping him spew nonsense.
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Proform, you look pretty, but technically you have no knowledge. I'm sorry you don't have any experience with physics or core shapes, because if you did, you'd understand what I'm saying.
The problem is that you don't see everything that's happening. So, what you see in the beginning, is not what's really happening in the end.
When you put the core/weight closer to your track, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core falls. In reality, the core/weight falls to the side of the ball/CLOSER TO YOUR PAP. One side of the ball is heavier now which is why it hooks harder at the end.
In the beginning of the lane, the weight/core is rolling end over end, both sides are somewhat equal in weight, which is why it doesn't hook early, but it is rolling early.
So, now you have a ball that doesn't hook early, but rolls early and as the ball goes down the lane, the core falls. So, now the ball hooks later. But, it's becasue the imbalance in the core, where it's fallen to the side of the ball, CLOSER TO THE PAP.
When you place the core closer to your track, it'll fall to the side as it goes down the lane, so in reality, the weight is no longer closer to your track..!!
So you see, not all things are what they seem to be..!! =:^D
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T-GOD
still waiting for that answer?
this post here is not what we have bben debating.
i may have been wrong earlier you have designed bowling balls the JEKYL & HYDE!
you keep spewing vomit fromm one idea to another with no focus on what we have debated. the debate was never about + or - side weight but pin placement.
placing the pin on pap is not extreme side weight which is how you keep trying to prove it as in one sentance and then pull out something at the other extreme that has nothing to do with the debate.
you are a lost cause
i have not at any time given an opinion in this particular post only stated that the other two were waisting their time debating you.
jekyl no hyde no jekyl no hyde no hickle
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also still in the original posting/debate i posted my credentials and see that you haven't responded in that post yet challenge my knowledge here where i hadn't debated.
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What will posting my credentials do for you..? Will that change what I say, no. Will it make my statements correct to you now..? It shouldn't. So what good are they to you..?
If I said I was the head ball designer for Brunswick, would you now believe what I'm saying..? What difference does it make what my credentials are..? If I'm important/famous, does that mean you'll believe me more..? =:^D
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T-GOD
no i wouldn't believe you because what you type proves your not.
you challenge my technicle knowledge yet what i say can be supported by the ball manufacturers,ball designers and physics. all you give to support your opinions is a new opinion, diversion and to say the above manufacturers,designers and technicle information they supply is wrong but with no proof. My credentials,knowledge and the facts that i have offered can be supported at any manufacturers site,drill sheet,seminar, ball rep. or knowledgeable technician.
you can't answer with facts because like i say you have only opinion,condition specific example and the idea that it is some conspiracy by the manufacturers and designers like Mo Pinel and Del Warren who as you said don't know any better. Mo Pinel just may have a "little" Physics knowledge, but obviously you know what nobody else knows.
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Pro, I told you to go ask Mo, about the weight closer to your PAP going longer. Don't take my word for it, GO ASK MO..!! And, don't ASSUME that you know what he'll say. Just ask him the simple question.
I've also explained to you why balls LAYED OUT with the pin/weight closer to your track, seem to go longer vs. weight/pin on your axis. But, you've failed to read or understand what I've written.
So, don't say that I don't know what I'm talking about, because of your misunderstanding..!! I've explained it to you thoroughly. You just can't understand what you read, like your buddy, Brian. =:^D
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I've tried to explain myself, WITH EXAMPLES, why what I'm saying is true. The only thing you guys have to back up your statements is "this is what all the manufacturers are telling us", so it must be true.
I've explained to you why what they're saying is partially true, but you won't take the time to understand it, about how the core falls to the positive side.
I've drilled balls pin axis, with the ending CG/weight on the axis. I also had the same exact ball drilled max leverage, with the ending CG/weight 3 3/8" from my axis point also.
Why is it that on oil, the max leverage ball picks up a roll in the midlane and hooks on the backend, and the pin axis ball doesn't even pick up a roll..?
Also, why is it that on dry lanes, the max leverage ball rolls out, and the pin axis ball can swing the whole lane and strike..?
Because, the max leverage rolls earlier and the pin axis goes longer..!!
Now I know what you might say, with your narrow minds. "Oh, the leverage drilling is flaring to a fresh surface, that's why it picks up a roll sooner".
Well, what if I don't wipe of the oil rings..? Now the next shot, the ball won't be rolling on a fresh surface, it'll be rolling over oil rings. So what now..? =:^D
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once again tg you show your lack of knolwedge, that is condition specific. but you don't understand it and are speaking from a bowlers view who goes to his proshop operator tells him/her "i want to stand 30 and swing to 5", well on what and what ball surface, oil pattern, head oil,breakdown,first shif fresh or later with carrydown,type of oil will it carrydown. but you can't and will never understand theese factors.
1. I don't need to call Mo Pinel i have spoken to him in the past, have read his articles/books/site/drill sheets--and i am correct because i agree with him--you need to speak to him and may finally learn something or sound rediculous arguing you opinions.
2. you only examples keep being condition specific(do you understand what that means?) and are with drill patterns that don't cover the point...you said pin near pap goes longer and pin near track hooks earlier these are absolutely incorrect on their own...not how pin axis vs. max lev. works on dry that doesn't in any way cover our debate.. because 1)its condition specific 2)is a drill pattern that involves pin,mass bias or cg variations,posible weight variances and variances with pin heights over midline...
you need tio open your mind and ask the question to yourself--why is tg stubborn and alcking the knowledge to understand what everyone else can and be able to understand how oil patterns can be manipulated by drill patterns and surface changes.. tg go to a seminar ask questions and open your mind and you too can learn..
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Whatever Pro, I personally know Mo. I've worked with Mo, and take that to the bank.
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I don't need to call Mo Pinel i have spoken to him in the past, have read his articles/books/site/drill sheets--and i am correct because i agree with him--you need to speak to him and may finally learn something or sound rediculous arguing you opinions.
I asked you not to assume what he'll say. But, hey, your brainwashed. quote:
you only examples keep being condition specific(do you understand what that means?)
All drillings are condition specific. That's what you do, have different layouts for different conditions. Different layouts roll different on different conditions. But hey, you keep drilling the same pattern for different conditions and have fun..!! quote:
you need to open your mind and ask the question to yourself--why is tg stubborn and alcking the knowledge to understand what everyone else can
You need to ask yourself the same question and why you like to be HERDED LIKE A SHEEP..!! quote:
and be able to understand how oil patterns can be manipulated by drill patterns and surface changes
Like I stated above, you need to understand how DRILL PATTERNS AND SURFACE CHANGES ARE MANIPULATED BY OIL PATTERNS..!! quote:
tg go to a seminar ask questions and open your mind and you too can learn..
I give seminars, you need to open your mind so you can learn..!!
I'm through wasting my time with you. =:^D
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tg
again no facts just diversion
done waisting my time with you especially when what you just said was proform go ahead drilling different patterns for different conditions, what you just claimed is a specific drill pattern always works and/or is ideal for all conditions.. that is not accurate and shows your lack of knowledge and in what matter did you work with Mo because resurfacing lanes for him does not give you knowledge in ball dynamics. also what seminars could you be teaching and then coming on here with nothing of substinance to back your opinion on our debate.
I will go on drilling with technigues i have learned thru 21 years of proshop experience,training,experimentation and proven technigues, which are supported by the manufacturers(that includes Morich)and if i recall Brian Omaras credentials included years of teaching at the Dick Ritgers Academy as well as being on staff with Hammer. See some of theese are credentials you can acquire thru experience,success,hardwork and the wiilingness to learn from experts with many years more experience than yourself.
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Pro, you wouldn't know substance if it HIT YOU IN THE FACE..!! I'm through with you. =:^D
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tg
i know substance and have shown you have none,
i got tired of watching you vomit your nonsense while you debated Brian Omara and only stated i agreed with him, you pulled me in, i have been reading your nonsense and debate with Brian and could read your junk no longer.
the majority of people viewing this site come hear for knowledge and to have questions answered and don't need to hear your ranting that the manufacturers,designers,trained ball technicians etc. are lying or offering false information to sell equipment.
The bottom line is what you say equates to Ford telling automobile buyers put cleaning solution in your cars so when the car dies after 1 day you go back and buy another one from Ford. that is how stupid your statements and opinions sound.
you and your junk are done and hold no water.
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quote:
i know substance and have shown you have none
My point exactly. =:^D
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tg sarcasm aside
you finally said something wise repeat after us all "T-God has NO substance!"
that is the only sense you have made in as you stated over 3 years.
now T-GOD can be saved and may learn something.
starting Monday we can start a new post on here where Brian and others can teach you one new(old news for most) lesson each week and soon you will be on your way to learning how to drill bowling balls or atleast what to ask your ball technician for.
Let the T-GOD on the road to bowling recovery begin.
Have a nice weekend T-GOD I have faith that you too can learn!
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I was hoping to extract the kind of information I could learn from because I don't know much about drilling. At least I can read and understand what T-GOD has written. Whether you agree with or not, at least he is providing solid explanations to his arguements.
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Penn State Proud
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Well both have given explanations, but, I think I should find some older ball, drill it pin axis, and see what happens. According to my knowledge, and everyone else, it should hook earlier with a weak backend, and shouldnt flare that much.
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ASK A PRO:http://csbowling.vze.com/atp.shtml
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Thanks Strider. At least someone, other than me, can understand what they read. =:^D
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Strider here is an example of what we (tg,brian and myself) were debating. tg feels that pin closer to pap goes longer and pin closer to track hooks earlier. this is not a debate about what drill pattern does what on a specific condition. there is a strong possibillity that tg,brian and myself may use the same drill patterns for the same style bowler on a given condition.
I have not disagreed in most of his specific condition specific patterns but have at times disagreed on why the drill pattern works.
*pin
O O O O *PIN
. @pap . @PAP(wighthole if needed)
cg cg
O O
Drilling A Drilling B
Drilling A will go longer than Drlling B with a similar shaped backend.
*pin
O O O O *pin
. Xweighthole . Xweighthole
cg cg
O O
Drilling A Drilling B
Driiling A will go longer than Drilling B with a similar shaped backend.
All balls balanced out with 0 sideweight, 0 finger weight, same surfaces. now tg there is no ending sideweight and same cg to pap distances the only variance between Drilling A and Drilling B is pin to pap distances. this is why us ball drillers as you said drill different patterns for different conditions. they each take advantage of the oil pattern. that is why i have repeatedly said your examples are condition specific and not stand alone standard for all oil patterns.
the example of short oil(80's- 90's) and why axis weight worked was beacause the shotness of the pattern which varied in volume, the constant was the length of oil. axis weight worked because it hooked early in the oil and didn't over hook at the backend(pos. weight was drilled out=0 side wt.). where as a finger positive(finger wt=more length) would go too long and overreact after clearing the oil and this is because it didn't match the oil specific condition not that it was a useless drill pattern.
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sorry about how the patterns came out.
first example is cg in palm for both Drilling A and Drilling B, Drilling A has pin closer to track and Drilling B has pin closer to pap.
second example is cg 3 3/8 from pap for both Drilling A and Drilling B, Drilling A has pin closer to track and Drilling B has pin closer to pap.
my point is regardless of cg to pap distance the pin placed closer to track will always go longer and the pin closer to pap will always hook sooner at with the cg to pap distances being the constant.
My point is pin to pap distances determine length and the cg to pap distance and/or mass biass to pap distance shape the backend. Yes TG this agrees with the manufacturers not because of blind faith but thru 21 yrs experience and experimentaion.
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Alright.. Alright.. I talked to a expierenced ball driller(Bowlers Dream), he cleared it up. It seems that both of you are right and wrong in a way. Let me explain this.
We all know the placing the core about 3 3/8" puts the core unstable, which produces the most flare/hook from a ball. But, putting the pin on(or near) track, makes the core go end over end decreasing when reaction takes place and over all hook.
But, if we place the pin right on the axis, it puts the core in a STABLE position. However, it does not promote skid because the core is turing along the axis, however it does make the ball roll and not skid.
So both of you were right in a way. Pin on axis does not make the ball hook early, but it makes it roll earlier instead of skidding since the way the core is turing, therefore it wont produce much flare, with a controllable backend.
Did I finaly settle the freakin argument? Or do one of you disagree with this?
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channel surfer
that i agree with.
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Brian,
1. Weight is defined as static weights/the ending CG. This can be in combination with the pin and/or the starting CG being on your axis.
A "perfect" axis weight drilling will have both the pin and ending CG on your axis. Starting with a perfect "pin in"(starting CG on the pin) ball. The weight hole will be roughtly 10" from the center of your grip, going past your PAP.
2. Because there is no side weight, maybe just top, this means the ending CG is closer to your track. So, the ball will roll early/earlier.
If there was side weight in conjunction with this drilling, with the right amount of top weight(low top..1/4 oz.), so the ending CG is now on the PAP/pin, the result would be that the ball would go longer down the lane before hooking, and it will hook more on the back end.
If you want to balance balls perfectly, and get maximum reaction, you want the ending CG to work with the core. So, putting the ending CG on the pin will give your maximum reaction with whatever layout/core position. This is because now the pin and static weights are working together and are rotating on the same plane as the core.
Remember, when using asymmetrical cores and core with strong MB or flip blocks, the position you start the weight/core/pin, is not the position it stays all the way down the lane. So, just because you have the ball layed out with the pin closer to your track, doesn't mean it's going to stay closer to your track when the ball gets to the end of the lane.
This is why what the major companies say about how these layouts work, seem to be right. There's things that's not being considered about why you get this reaction. They just tell you the reaction you 're getting, without explaining WHY..!!
Lane conditions also play a major part in your ball reaction to layout pattern. If the lanes are oiled backwards, heads stripped and backends tight, you'll get a totally different ball reation/read than what you're supposed to get, vs a lane condition with the front's oiled heavy and the backends dry.
You'll also get a different reaction/read when the lanes are oiled 10 to 10 long oil.
Going back to having the weight on the side of the ball/closer to your PAP vs having the weihgt closer to your track/ 6 3/4" from your PAP. If the front of the lane was hooking and you stayed behind the ball, the ball with the weight on the side would hook more than the ball with the weight in/closer to your track, thus looking like it hooked earlier. That's because of the side imbalance. One side is heavier than the other.
With the weight closer/in your track, both sides of the ball are equal, so it won't hook through the front. Actually it won't hook at all, because the ball will be rolling end over end, 6:00 - 12:00 all the way down the lane. Because the ball doesn't hook at all, with no hook on the backend, it looks like the ball is going long. It's going long alright, but it's rolling long and rolled out from the start. You need to turn the ball for it to hook, or, the core has to be asyemmetrical so it falls.
Now, things change when you turn the ball/have side rotation. With the weight/pin on your PAP, if you turn the ball/come off the side of the ball, with a 9:00 to 3:00 90 degree side rotation, the core/weight/pin is now facing you, pointing at 12:00 and 6:00 down the lane. Think of it as a spiral thrown football heading down the lane. Now, there is no side imbalance with the core, so, the ball will go longer, delaying the balls/cores precession.
Whereas, with a 90 degree rotation, with the pin/weight closer/in your track, the core is rotating sideways like a windmill thru the front. Because the core is rotating sideways thru the front, the ball will want to hook/roll earlier/precess earlier, i.e. lose it's side rotation earllier.
So, as you see, different layouts, with different conditions, along with different release's, will do/react differently, combined with core migrations that most bowlers cannot see, explains why it's confusing for you to understand why you're getting the ball reaction you get for a specific layout.
And, this is why you don't comprehend/agree what I'm saying. =:^D
Edited on 2/17/2004 2:50 PM
Edited on 2/17/2004 2:59 PM