BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: J_w73 on January 13, 2015, 01:43:34 AM
-
I have used a pin at center grip to create a smooth layout with some success. This puts the pin 5 inches from my PAP. This works best with short pins to where a weight hole isn't needed as a weight hole usually increases the flare and asymmetry and causes more movement.
Does anyone have any feedback on how a 1 3/4 pin to pap would differ in reaction? I know it would put the core in a low rg orientation. It should also have similar flare to the 5" pin to pap. Is there an issue with the pin possibly locking onto the PAP?
What layout do you use when you want to smooth out the reaction and take as much flip out of the ball as possible?
-
In theory short pins to PAP work, but in real world application most people don't know when or how to use them.
-
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls. I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout. I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up. Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s.
The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip). My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down. Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls. I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout. I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up. Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s.
The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip). My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down. Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.
I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers for me, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.
-
This is the problem with the Internet...anyone can be considered knowledgeable without have true data to back up what they post...
-
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?
Because bowlers want to use the most consistent A game. Plain and simple.
-
No offense to the scientists here. IMO its trial and error, what works for one, doesnt work for others!
-
^^^ding ding ding winner^^^
No one does legitimate analysis just assumption
-
As well as completely understand reaction and what effect the condition creates...
-
Urethane? I hear that's pretty smooth reacting.
-
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?
I'm sure you only have and use one ball then? Am I correct?
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
I have found the similar reaction when I tried short pin to pap balls in the past. That was back when like 10 years ago or more when I didn't know my PAP so that could have been the issue. I agree. A hand change works, but it is nice to have a ball that plays along with the desired reaction.
-
This is the problem with the Internet...anyone can be considered knowledgeable without have true data to back up what they post...
Not sure what post you are referring to.
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls. I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout. I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up. Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s.
The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip). My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down. Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.
I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.
No they do not. Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly. My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare. I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls. Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above. Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru. They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls. The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.
-
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?
I'm sure you only have and use one ball then? Am I correct?
Nice try, Im smart enough to know my limitations and don't think some magical layout or ball will make up for my shortcomings.
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls. I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout. I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up. Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s.
The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip). My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down. Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.
I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.
No they do not. Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly. My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare. I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls. Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above. Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru. They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls. The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.
I agree with Twohand. A hole at the pin or top of the core is going to shorten the core and lower the differential. When you put the pin at the center grip you are shortening the core with the thumb and finger holes thus lowering the differential.
A hole at 6 3/4 from the pin ( pin above the fingers) is going into the side of the core and will create the most asymmetry and increase the differential the most. A hole 3 3/8 from the pin will take weight out at an equal distant from the top and side of the core and thus change the dynamics of the core the least.
-
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff. The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030. That is a huge difference.
-
Short pins to pap are usually condition specific. I drilled up a Grip It trying to smooth out the left to right, and going up the lane the ball checked up too soon, and if I tried to go left to right, it didn't have enough to get around the corner. If you're looking to manage flare, you can either go with a lower diff core and still drill it strong, IE a Scream, Tropical Breeze, Strike King, and adjust the cover (sanding with the initial track) to get it thru the fronts cleaner, and be smoother on the back.
But I also agree with northface. A simple hand position change could allow you to stay with the ball drilled rico and get a totally different reaction.
This is exactly why when I have drilled a couple balls with the pin at 2 inches from PAP; I have done it with weaker balls. I have never drilled anything higher end with a 2 inch layout. I had an Ebonite Black Ice drilled that way and it was far and away the best ball I had for both house and tournament conditions when I wanted to square up. Cover was weak enough to still push through the fronts but the backend reaction was super smooth yet just enough angle to kick the 10s.
The key now to get smooth rolling balls; is balls with very low diffs and/or balls drilled with the pin below the fingers in order to lower the overall diff (take a ball with a diff of .040 or lower and drop the diff almost in half by putting the pin between the fingers and center of grip). My two smoothest rolling balls right now are a Deep Freeze (.029 diff OOB) and a Take Down which is box finish but pin below the bridge to cut the diff down. Another thing to add is take the shine off a ball if it comes out of the box shiny to also smoothen out the backend.
I dont understand this, pins below the fingers flare significantly more than balls with pins above the fingers, i.e below the bridge vs over bridge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Using your theory.
No they do not. Even according to Blueprint; if you put the pin below the fingers the diff decreases fairly significantly. My Take Down with a pin down 5 inches from PAP only flares about 3 inches at the most and that is even with a P3 hole which is supposed to increase flare. I have seen the Blueprint software with multiple balls. Flare on every ball decreased when putting the pin below as opposed to above. Watch the vids of Radicals Score and Guru. They even post what the differentials are with the pin down and pin up balls. The Guru pin up was over .06 differential.
Im not the most technically savvy bowler, what I do know is what I see. I have two balls, an Optimus, one is pin over bridge, the other is pin under bridge. No extra holes. The pin down one flares 5 inches with the flare separation wide, the pin up one flares maybe 2-3 inches with the flares very, very tight. Using the info you provided it should be the other way around right?
-
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff. The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030. That is a huge difference.
Am I wrong in assuming higher diff equates more flare?
-
Will people ever alter their releases instead of looking for magic layouts or balls?
I'm sure you only have and use one ball then? Am I correct?
Nice try, Im smart enough to know my limitations and don't think some magical layout or ball will make up for my shortcomings.
From your comment it sounds like you only have one ball. Why would you have more than one if you can just change your hand position, speed , and rpms and make the ball work on any shot?
I do understand what you are saying but it isn't magic. It is physics and science, and if it helps then why not use it? If you have "unlimited" talent than you can do anything you want and make any ball work on any condition. No one does so why not give ourselves the best chance?
-
I have a slingshot and an outcast both drilled with the pin 2 inches from
my pap. Very smooth rolling balls.
-
I have a slingshot and an outcast both drilled with the pin 2 inches from
my pap. Very smooth rolling balls.
Hey, thanks for replying to the post. Do you see the balls wanting to roll out early with this layout?
-
Im not the most technically savvy bowler, what I do know is what I see. I have two balls, an Optimus, one is pin over bridge, the other is pin under bridge. No extra holes. The pin down one flares 5 inches with the flare separation wide, the pin up one flares maybe 2-3 inches with the flares very, very tight. Using the info you provided it should be the other way around right?
Do they both have the same pin to pap? Finger holes the same depth? Send pics if you can.
-
I have never experienced any rollout with either ball. Great for playing straighter lines but can also hook it at the same time.
-
This is the problem with the Internet...anyone can be considered knowledgeable without have true data to back up what they post...
Not sure what post you are referring to.
Most of them.
-
Thank you^^^^
-
Thank you^^^^
Well, if I said something you don't agree with, I would like to know. If I'm wrong, I would like to learn.
-
Having just watched the video of the Guru on youtube; ball starts with .044 diff. The pin up drilling increased the diff to .064 and the pin down ball decreased the diff to .030. That is a huge difference.
Am I wrong in assuming higher diff equates more flare?
Thats exactly right. A higher diff means more flare potential. That why you see plastic balls flare only an inch because the diff is so low.
-
It's not one thing it's everyone offering 'THEIR' opinion and honestly all that does is create confusion...ball layouts and creating motion are individual but only because those offering opinions and that's what it is, is offering individual circumstances
Now lets say I offer an educated response....9 posts will contradict it off their personal experience where mine is one down thru proper evaluation instead of what I want to see...
I'm not trying to insult this but at some point it turns into a pissing contest
-
And learning is understanding each individual situation is different and understanding takes more than me posting so someone can learn...it's taken me over 35 yrs on every different level of competition and in different positions...
That's what gets disturbing is the amt of responses how many are incorrect
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
-
It's not one thing it's everyone offering 'THEIR' opinion and honestly all that does is create confusion...ball layouts and creating motion are individual but only because those offering opinions and that's what it is, is offering individual circumstances
Now lets say I offer an educated response....9 posts will contradict it off their personal experience where mine is one down thru proper evaluation instead of what I want to see...
I'm not trying to insult this but at some point it turns into a pissing contest
It wasn't a pissing contest. People are just asking questions and giving their personal experience. Some people know the science of it and others just know what they do and what works. I find this very valuable in that if I find someone that has similar specs and "style" that I do , I can maybe use something that they do and benefit from it. I understand that what works for one person will not work for everyone. Yes there is a scientific absolute. I lean toward using science to explain what is going on with the ball reaction. I think I have pretty a good grasp on the physics behind everything but don't know everything.
-
Surface is the largest effecter of ball reaction....you can smooth reaction by lowering surface
Secondly if bowling ball does not slow properly, the core/layout will not effect the desired reaction properly
Weight holes tend to effect reaction after the ball slows but also dependant on existing flare
One issue I see with layouts is they are not adjusted correctly using a weight hole-take a 1.5-2.5" pin to pap layout...more times than not a weight hole is not facilitated thus the flares stay tight creating a quicker response
Too many times, bowlers not understanding weight hole effect shy away improperly...weight holes make the ball hook earlier or more...not always nor only effect they have
-
My reference to the pissing contest occurs when either a post is explained correctly and another gets defensive assuming all is directed towards them...
-
And learning is understanding each individual situation is different and understanding takes more than me posting so someone can learn...it's taken me over 35 yrs on every different level of competition and in different positions...
That's what gets disturbing is the amt of responses how many are incorrect
Maybe bowlingchat.net is more your style forum then. I'm sure they would love to have you as a contributor. They seem to take problem solving from an individual perspective. Working more one on one with someone and fixing their problem based on their individual stats.
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
What is your PAP?
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
i didnt read this whole thread so maybe it was already addressed but pin up or down does not affect the amount of flare a ball gets. its the pin distance from the PAP.
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
What is your PAP?
4 1/2 Over
-
You have shown ONE ball that data have been shown pin up vs pin down...overall any holes drilled into the core effect it...if the pin placement is 1" above or below the gripping holes the effect on the core is going to be similar...
-
Thank you Cheech I meant to post that earlier...great point
-
My reference to the pissing contest occurs when either a post is explained correctly and another gets defensive assuming all is directed towards them...
got it man. I hear you. Sometimes you just have to ignore posts. It is better than letting it get to you. You can't help everyone and can't help people that don't want help. There is nothing wrong with intelligent debate though. Sometimes that is hard to do well through text. Sometimes questions come off as disagreeing or argumentative, when they are just questions.
-
J W I shall not disagree with that post whatsoever
-
Surface is the largest effecter of ball reaction....you can smooth reaction by lowering surface
Secondly if bowling ball does not slow properly, the core/layout will not effect the desired reaction properly
One issue I see with layouts is they are not adjusted correctly using a weight hole-take a 1.5-2.5" pin to pap layout...more times than not a weight hole is not facilitated thus the flares stay tight creating a quicker response
Doesn't the shorter pin to pap, putting the core in a lower RG state, (sorry, not sure if that is the right way to say it) negate some of the quick response to friction? Or at least create less response than say a 5.25 pin to pap vs a 1.5 pin to pap? Wouldn't each have similar flare?
-
It does but it goes back to how the ball is allowed to transition...if the cover is smooth to create length and you use a layout away from leverage, the flare is diminished accordingly...a 2" pin theoretically creates a similar amount of flare as a pin at 4.75" only effected by core location high RG (track) vs low RG (pap)...so if no weight hole is added, say a 2" pin to pap vs a 2" pin to pap with a 2" weight hole, the amt of flare effects the transition...one doesn't see the window the other does
-
Thank you Cheech I meant to post that earlier...great point
So on a symmetrical ball with a pin at center grip , 5 inches from the PAP, with no weight hole, should have the same flare as a ball with the pin 5 inches from the PAP and 2.5 inches above the fingers, with the thumbhole 6 3/4 from the pin? If it matters, use my stats in my signature. Would these two balls have the same reaction?
-
First of all one of the things we found (Bill Wasserberger and I) while at Brunswick was that for the majority of cases, the pin in the palm left a majority of the core intact after drilling allowing a bulk of the dynamics and adding a weight hole 6.75" from the pin increased the overall dynamics plus asymmetry...so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense?
Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare...
-
First of all one of the things we found (Bill Wasserberger and I) while at Brunswick was that for the majority of cases, the pin in the palm left a majority of the core intact after drilling allowing a bulk of the dynamics and adding a weight hole 6.75" from the pin increased the overall dynamics plus asymmetry...so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense?
Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare...
I'm talking about pin in palm without the weight hole. (provided you have a short enough pin, low enough top weight to be legal) I wasn't necessarily talking about the RICO layout in this post.
-
Pin in the palm no matter length of pin still remains the same to my comment...read what I said abt drilling around the core and how much honest difference there is in the big scheme of things...
-
Pin in the palm no matter length of pin still remains the same to my comment...read what I said abt drilling around the core and how much honest difference there is in the big scheme of things...
I was referring to your comment "so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense? "
This is even referring to a ball without the weight hole 6.75 from the pin?
-
Yes that is correct...
-
"Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare..."
-
Yes that is correct...
thank you.
-
Keep in mind, to a greater extent, this is semantics...when dealing with the variables how much pin/core in regards to drilled placement effect reaction?
-
Yes that is correct...
Trying to get my head around this. Even if minimal, why would the pin in palm (no weight hole) create more flare potential than the pin above the fingers? And regardless of flare potential, are you also saying the reaction and ball shape would be the same?
-
Not trying to start anything Rico just want your opinion. But what do you think of the powerhouse blueprint track flare study? They seemed to show higher pins having more flare vs lower pins so just curious if u felt the study was flawed?
-
I don't know anything abt the blueprint program but I know it's only EBI products...
I like science but in the bigger schemes of reaction and semantics...we make too much out of too little....if you use blueprint and the ball doesn't react as the computer says it will, what does the pro shop operator do? They adjust either the surface first or look at flare...or they should at least...
There is no fail safe system - none and when I do layout suggestions I know what a 5" pin to pap creates and if it's not perfect, I adjust the surface then look at the flare to adjust that but if the surface isn't matching up or allowing the ball to slow down properly, all the rest don't matter
-
I don't know anything abt the blueprint program but I know it's only EBI products...
I like science but in the bigger schemes of reaction and semantics...we make too much out of too little....if you use blueprint and the ball doesn't react as the computer says it will, what does the pro shop operator do? They adjust either the surface first or look at flare...or they should at least...
There is no fail safe system - none and when I do layout suggestions I know what a 5" pin to pap creates and if it's not perfect, I adjust the surface then look at the flare to adjust that but if the surface isn't matching up or allowing the ball to slow down properly, all the rest don't matter
I agree with what you're saying whole heartedly. I feel the science side gives a driller a better understanding of how to help add the flare needed and gives the opportunity to "get it perfect" if there are ball reaction issues. But i completely agree that getting the surface correct is most important.
-
That's what I meant abt specific situations vs history...I know that 3.375" creates the highest potential for flare and deviating minimizes flare and effects shape...I know that I have a better chance of effecting reaction with surface more than anything...I know I can effect reaction with a weight hole depending on initial amt of existing flare...
I work with the mindset of whats gonna give me the most options? A 4.5-5.5" (rev dependent) pin to pap is safe in managing flare...and after surface too many times I see over flaring (too much flare from too strong a pin to pap placement or too close to leverage) ill effecting down lane motion
So you can make it as sexy as one wants, but there are simplicities to this game that no one can argue and yet too many try...
-
That's what I meant abt specific situations vs history...I know that 3.375" creates the highest potential for flare and deviating minimizes flare and effects shape...I know that I have a better chance of effecting reaction with surface more than anything...I know I can effect reaction with a weight hole depending on initial amt of existing flare...
I work with the mindset of whats gonna give me the most options? A 4.5-5.5" (rev dependent) pin to pap is safe in managing flare...and after surface too many times I see over flaring (too much flare from too strong a pin to pap placement or too close to leverage) ill effecting down lane motion
So you can make it as sexy as one wants, but there are simplicities to this game that no one can argue and yet too many try...
Agree this is why i stick to 1 layout for symmetricals and 1 for asymmetricals generally and use differences in the ball designs to fill my arsenal. I try to only deviate from those layouts when trying to get an extreme reaction for a certain condition. Things such as a 2" pin to axis to get straight or a 6.25" pin to axis to get length with angle
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
What is your PAP?
4 1/2 Over
Seems normal enough. What is your release tilt? I was talking to somebody about and may have a reason to what you see. What is the size of your thumb hole? Do you use a thumb slug? Do you use finger grips?
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
What is your PAP?
4 1/2 Over
Seems normal enough. What is your release tilt? I was talking to somebody about and may have a reason to what you see. What is the size of your thumb hole? Do you use a thumb slug? Do you use finger grips?
I do you use thumb slugs and recently went back to finger grips.The shrinking and swelling in the winter made the finger holes too big initially when I would bowl.
-
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
Weight hole placement and surface can also factor in to flare potential as well both increasing and decreasing. Seems odd that your pin up is flaring less, though. Maybe Ric can chime in as to factors that can cause that..
I was hoping he would, because I know I don't know what I am talking about, only what I see. Actually, the only pin up balls that flare a lot for me are asymmetrical. On symmetrical balls, the flares are tight and I hate the reaction. So, FOR ME, I drill most symmetric balls pin down, could be an illusion or all in my head.
What is your PAP?
4 1/2 Over
Seems normal enough. What is your release tilt? I was talking to somebody about and may have a reason to what you see. What is the size of your thumb hole? Do you use a thumb slug? Do you use finger grips?
I do you use thumb slugs and recently went back to finger grips.The shrinking and swelling in the winter made the finger holes too big initially when I would bowl.
The person I was talking to was saying that if you had finger grips with deep finger holes and a small thumb hole, that the finger holes could lower the differential more than the smaller thumb increases it, thus giving you the results that you see.
-
I don't know if this will help or not but I had a Brunswick Rhino Pro LE drilled with the pin about 1.5" to 2" from the pap. It was one of the strongest balls I've ever owned. I could sand it and use it on heavy oil or add some polish and go to medium conditions. The flare was in the 4" range. Have not tried this drilling on any of my newer equipment but I am thinking about plugging an Ebonite Mission X and drilling it this way.
-
I don't know if this will help or not but I had a Brunswick Rhino Pro LE drilled with the pin about 1.5" to 2" from the pap. It was one of the strongest balls I've ever owned. I could sand it and use it on heavy oil or add some polish and go to medium conditions. The flare was in the 4" range. Have not tried this drilling on any of my newer equipment but I am thinking about plugging an Ebonite Mission X and drilling it this way.
What was the reaction shape that you saw out of it? That is the important part.
-
Not trying to start anything Rico just want your opinion. But what do you think of the powerhouse blueprint track flare study? They seemed to show higher pins having more flare vs lower pins so just curious if u felt the study was flawed?
For those interested and haven't read here's the above article
Bowling Ball Track Flare Explained:
An Analytical Study of Core Dynamics and Modern
Layout Methods and Their Combined Effect on Track Flare
http://blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf (http://blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf)
-
Not trying to start anything Rico just want your opinion. But what do you think of the powerhouse blueprint track flare study? They seemed to show higher pins having more flare vs lower pins so just curious if u felt the study was flawed?
For those interested and haven't read here's the above article
Bowling Ball Track Flare Explained:
An Analytical Study of Core Dynamics and Modern
Layout Methods and Their Combined Effect on Track Flare
http://blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf (http://blueprintbowling.com/Documents/Bowling%20Ball%20Track%20Flare%20Explained.pdf)
I don't know if this will help or not but I had a Brunswick Rhino Pro LE drilled with the pin about 1.5" to 2" from the pap. It was one of the strongest balls I've ever owned. I could sand it and use it on heavy oil or add some polish and go to medium conditions. The flare was in the 4" range. Have not tried this drilling on any of my newer equipment but I am thinking about plugging an Ebonite Mission X and drilling it this way.
What was the reaction shape that you saw out of it? That is the important part.
I'd say it was a hard turn (banana shape) when it was sanded and a little skid/flip (hockey stick) when polished. Bear in mind that I don't have a lot of speed and probably only average revs.
-
I found this on another forum
http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/producing-a-smoother-ball-motion-with-the-lsl-and-sll-layouts/
-
Great article, I think. Can't read it!
Regards,
Luckylefty