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Author Topic: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation  (Read 7085 times)

J_w73

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Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« on: February 01, 2018, 05:07:14 PM »
With my current grip, I feel I just can't get around the ball and get the rotation on the ball that I would like.  I'm thinking about going more forward in the fingers.  I know the trend is to go more reverse in the fingers and forward in the thumb, but  I've tried more forward in the thumb and I just tend to hang up.  Is there a certain amount of forward in the fingers for a given span or thumb pitch? 

Current grip. Right handed, span is accurate, but with a relaxed un-stretched grip.

Middle  0 L/R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Ring     3/4 R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Thumb 3/4 R, 3/16 reverse, Use a tight thumb hole, thumb on the long side.

I know 3/4 right in the thumb is extreme. My thumb hinges pretty much across my palm and points beyond my pinky when doing the coke can grip test.

Any help is appreciated.  Or if you know the best fitter in the nation I will fly there to have them fit me.
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northface28

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2018, 05:25:59 PM »
I'm no fit expert, however, with a tight thumb and loose fingers, youre probably exiting the ball at the same time with the fingers and thumb.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2018, 05:31:44 PM »
I'm sorry, but I can not think of one competent PSO that would say put any forward in the fingers. The idea is to get the ball into the lane. More forward won't get you around it more, it will make your ball reaction worse.
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rocky61201

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2018, 05:34:20 PM »
I'm no expert either but on a hunch I had one of my balls changed to add a little forward pitch to the fingers.  I have a tendency late in the match to let the ball go flat and lose rotation/revs.  Then the ball never finishes and I leave a bucket/washout/flat 10 ect.  It happens when the lanes are dried up and I need to speed things up and I have trouble staying "in the ball."

I'm now adding the same forward pitch to all my stuff because it doesn't happen anymore.  Grip is more relaxed and the ball comes off my fingers last no matter how hard I'm throwing it.  I never get hung up either. 

Like I said I'm no expert but here is what I found - https://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/forward-and-reverse-bowling-ball-finger-pitches

"Forward pitches may also be useful to help you complete your finger rotation when releasing your ball."

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:36:15 PM by rocky61201 »
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2018, 06:51:35 PM »

[/quote] 
Quote from: rocky61201 on February 01, 2018, 05:34:20 PM
I'm no expert either but on a hunch I had one of my balls changed to add a little forward pitch to the fingers.  I have a tendency late in the match to let the ball go flat and lose rotation/revs.  Then the ball never finishes and I leave a bucket/washout/flat 10 ect.  It happens when the lanes are dried up and I need to speed things up and I have trouble staying "in the ball."

I'm now adding the same forward pitch to all my stuff because it doesn't happen anymore.  Grip is more relaxed and the ball comes off my fingers last no matter how hard I'm throwing it.  I never get hung up either. 

Like I said I'm no expert but here is what I found - https://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/forward-and-reverse-bowling-ball-finger-pitches

"Forward pitches may also be useful to help you complete your finger rotation when releasing your ball."

 

I have the exact problem. If I keep the ball slow and don't force it, I am fine. As soon as I have to put any speed on the ball, that is when I lose the ball. So more speed and less revs = bad.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 07:01:54 PM by J_w73 »
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2018, 06:53:47 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on February 01, 2018, 05:31:44 PM
I'm sorry, but I can not think of one competent PSO that would say put any forward in the fingers. The idea is to get the ball into the lane. More forward won't get you around it more, it will make your ball reaction worse.

I think I get the ball into the lane fine..   I don't drop the ball, but I am the only person I know that gets burn marks on my ball from when the ball impacts the lane.  I guess setting it down too early
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 07:01:12 PM by J_w73 »
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 06:57:58 PM »
Here is a video of some shots. I don't entirely remember, but I think I was really trying to get around the ball on these shots.

Sound on the last clip.. sorry..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLPEQlyoe0
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 06:59:55 PM by J_w73 »
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charlest

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 07:42:24 PM »
I'm not sure I understand; maybe I'm not seeing as much as someone with better "bowling eyes".

You have good, firm  ball speed for your apparent (to my eyes) rotation. I'm guessing somewhere around 60-90 degrees, from the video. More rotation will give you more length and more backend. Seems like you have plenty already. More rotation would make the ball flippier and harder to control.

Are you sure you don't mean more revolutions and not more rotation?

More revolutions usually, but not always comes from a cleaner and more timely thumb release and a good follow-through with a flat bottomed arc at the release point. A slightly cleaner thumb release might get you more revs.
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bowling_rebel

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 08:06:10 PM »
More forward pitch in fingers will keep the ball on your finger pads longer. So if it's falling off fingers a tad to soon, your may be right.

I've tried it and it has helped a lot.

Just b/c the latest thing is to add reverse pitch to fingers, doen't mean it's going to work for you. Everyone has different hands.

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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 09:06:05 PM »
Quote from: charlest on February 01, 2018, 07:42:24 PM
I'm not sure I understand; maybe I'm not seeing as much as someone with better "bowling eyes".

You have good, firm  ball speed for your apparent (to my eyes) rotation. I'm guessing somewhere around 60-90 degrees, from the video. More rotation will give you more length and more backend. Seems like you have plenty already. More rotation would make the ball flippier and harder to control.

Are you sure you don't mean more revolutions and not more rotation?

More revolutions usually, but not always comes from a cleaner and more timely thumb release and a good follow-through with a flat bottomed arc at the release point. A slightly cleaner thumb release might get you more revs.

These shots were ok with decent rotation and motion. I was trying with all my might to get Around the ball and they are pretty slow. You can see im squeezing on some of the shots.. And others come off barely past the foul line.. It is when i need to get firmer is the issue.  Just lose all rotation and movement.. more revs would be nice as well.  I used to be 375 on CATS ..i don't think I'm up there any more.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 09:11:23 PM by J_w73 »
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ignitebowling

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 09:44:55 PM »
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2018, 12:02:38 AM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on February 01, 2018, 09:44:55 PM
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk

Thank you for the analysis.  Yes I do what you say.  I have figured out that my hand turns because of a tight or limited shoulder.  When I keep the inside of my elbow pointed to my target, my hand naturally turns inside.  This is something I need to work on.  I need to consciously rotate my elbow the opposite way or start with my elbow in a contorted position. Only problem with this, is I get some tendon/joint pain after I do this for a while.

It looks like I need to get under the ball more.  I guess I need to keep my wrist cupped and cocked so it is a strong position.  Any other suggestions?
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 09:00:46 AM »
Changing your finger pitch is not going to help the early turn.  My guess would be when you try to throw the ball harder you turn it even earlier and the ball isn't reading the lane. 

Practice with a Robby's with no metal in it. This will allow you to feel your hand and wrist and how much excess movement it has through your swing.  Your hand goes to the outside and your thumb goes down as the ball passes your hip into the backswing.  Very few people can recover from this position to get to a strong release.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2018, 09:18:52 AM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 09:00:46 AM
Changing your finger pitch is not going to help the early turn.  My guess would be when you try to throw the ball harder you turn it even earlier and the ball isn't reading the lane. 

Practice with a Robby's with no metal in it. This will allow you to feel your hand and wrist and how much excess movement it has through your swing.  Your hand goes to the outside and your thumb goes down as the ball passes your hip into the backswing.  Very few people can recover from this position to get to a strong release.

Thank you.  I think I turn it early just so I can turn it before the ball comes off my hand.  The ball is coming off my hand, so I have to turn it if I want to get anything on it. 

I have seen Mike Jassnau a couple of times and  I mentioned fixing the rotation in my backswing.  He said not to worry about it and didn't see it as a problem because I got back to a decent position at the bottom.  Maybe I used to be in a stronger position.  I will have to go back and look at those videos and see if there is a difference.

which Robby's wrist brace do you recommend trying?
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2018, 09:39:12 AM »
Early turn creates undesirable ball roll that creates too much over/under reaction.  You are much better off in a stronger position with more revolutions and less rotation so the ball is not jumping when it encounters friction.

Any Robby's.  Take the metal out.  You just want something on your hand and wrist so you can feel it.  Most people that have as much hand motion as you do can't feel what they are doing. 
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