BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: J_w73 on February 01, 2018, 05:07:14 PM
-
With my current grip, I feel I just can't get around the ball and get the rotation on the ball that I would like. I'm thinking about going more forward in the fingers. I know the trend is to go more reverse in the fingers and forward in the thumb, but I've tried more forward in the thumb and I just tend to hang up. Is there a certain amount of forward in the fingers for a given span or thumb pitch?
Current grip. Right handed, span is accurate, but with a relaxed un-stretched grip.
Middle 0 L/R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Ring 3/4 R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Thumb 3/4 R, 3/16 reverse, Use a tight thumb hole, thumb on the long side.
I know 3/4 right in the thumb is extreme. My thumb hinges pretty much across my palm and points beyond my pinky when doing the coke can grip test.
Any help is appreciated. Or if you know the best fitter in the nation I will fly there to have them fit me.
-
I'm no fit expert, however, with a tight thumb and loose fingers, youre probably exiting the ball at the same time with the fingers and thumb.
-
I'm sorry, but I can not think of one competent PSO that would say put any forward in the fingers. The idea is to get the ball into the lane. More forward won't get you around it more, it will make your ball reaction worse.
-
I'm no expert either but on a hunch I had one of my balls changed to add a little forward pitch to the fingers. I have a tendency late in the match to let the ball go flat and lose rotation/revs. Then the ball never finishes and I leave a bucket/washout/flat 10 ect. It happens when the lanes are dried up and I need to speed things up and I have trouble staying "in the ball."
I'm now adding the same forward pitch to all my stuff because it doesn't happen anymore. Grip is more relaxed and the ball comes off my fingers last no matter how hard I'm throwing it. I never get hung up either.
Like I said I'm no expert but here is what I found - https://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/forward-and-reverse-bowling-ball-finger-pitches
"Forward pitches may also be useful to help you complete your finger rotation when releasing your ball."
-
[/quote] I'm no expert either but on a hunch I had one of my balls changed to add a little forward pitch to the fingers. I have a tendency late in the match to let the ball go flat and lose rotation/revs. Then the ball never finishes and I leave a bucket/washout/flat 10 ect. It happens when the lanes are dried up and I need to speed things up and I have trouble staying "in the ball."
I'm now adding the same forward pitch to all my stuff because it doesn't happen anymore. Grip is more relaxed and the ball comes off my fingers last no matter how hard I'm throwing it. I never get hung up either.
Like I said I'm no expert but here is what I found - https://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/forward-and-reverse-bowling-ball-finger-pitches
"Forward pitches may also be useful to help you complete your finger rotation when releasing your ball."
I have the exact problem. If I keep the ball slow and don't force it, I am fine. As soon as I have to put any speed on the ball, that is when I lose the ball. So more speed and less revs = bad.
-
I'm sorry, but I can not think of one competent PSO that would say put any forward in the fingers. The idea is to get the ball into the lane. More forward won't get you around it more, it will make your ball reaction worse.
I think I get the ball into the lane fine.. I don't drop the ball, but I am the only person I know that gets burn marks on my ball from when the ball impacts the lane. I guess setting it down too early
-
Here is a video of some shots. I don't entirely remember, but I think I was really trying to get around the ball on these shots.
Sound on the last clip.. sorry..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLPEQlyoe0
-
I'm not sure I understand; maybe I'm not seeing as much as someone with better "bowling eyes".
You have good, firm ball speed for your apparent (to my eyes) rotation. I'm guessing somewhere around 60-90 degrees, from the video. More rotation will give you more length and more backend. Seems like you have plenty already. More rotation would make the ball flippier and harder to control.
Are you sure you don't mean more revolutions and not more rotation?
More revolutions usually, but not always comes from a cleaner and more timely thumb release and a good follow-through with a flat bottomed arc at the release point. A slightly cleaner thumb release might get you more revs.
-
More forward pitch in fingers will keep the ball on your finger pads longer. So if it's falling off fingers a tad to soon, your may be right.
I've tried it and it has helped a lot.
Just b/c the latest thing is to add reverse pitch to fingers, doen't mean it's going to work for you. Everyone has different hands.
-
I'm not sure I understand; maybe I'm not seeing as much as someone with better "bowling eyes".
You have good, firm ball speed for your apparent (to my eyes) rotation. I'm guessing somewhere around 60-90 degrees, from the video. More rotation will give you more length and more backend. Seems like you have plenty already. More rotation would make the ball flippier and harder to control.
Are you sure you don't mean more revolutions and not more rotation?
More revolutions usually, but not always comes from a cleaner and more timely thumb release and a good follow-through with a flat bottomed arc at the release point. A slightly cleaner thumb release might get you more revs.
These shots were ok with decent rotation and motion. I was trying with all my might to get Around the ball and they are pretty slow. You can see im squeezing on some of the shots.. And others come off barely past the foul line.. It is when i need to get firmer is the issue. Just lose all rotation and movement.. more revs would be nice as well. I used to be 375 on CATS ..i don't think I'm up there any more.
-
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk
-
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk
Thank you for the analysis. Yes I do what you say. I have figured out that my hand turns because of a tight or limited shoulder. When I keep the inside of my elbow pointed to my target, my hand naturally turns inside. This is something I need to work on. I need to consciously rotate my elbow the opposite way or start with my elbow in a contorted position. Only problem with this, is I get some tendon/joint pain after I do this for a while.
It looks like I need to get under the ball more. I guess I need to keep my wrist cupped and cocked so it is a strong position. Any other suggestions?
-
Changing your finger pitch is not going to help the early turn. My guess would be when you try to throw the ball harder you turn it even earlier and the ball isn't reading the lane.
Practice with a Robby's with no metal in it. This will allow you to feel your hand and wrist and how much excess movement it has through your swing. Your hand goes to the outside and your thumb goes down as the ball passes your hip into the backswing. Very few people can recover from this position to get to a strong release.
-
Changing your finger pitch is not going to help the early turn. My guess would be when you try to throw the ball harder you turn it even earlier and the ball isn't reading the lane.
Practice with a Robby's with no metal in it. This will allow you to feel your hand and wrist and how much excess movement it has through your swing. Your hand goes to the outside and your thumb goes down as the ball passes your hip into the backswing. Very few people can recover from this position to get to a strong release.
Thank you. I think I turn it early just so I can turn it before the ball comes off my hand. The ball is coming off my hand, so I have to turn it if I want to get anything on it.
I have seen Mike Jassnau a couple of times and I mentioned fixing the rotation in my backswing. He said not to worry about it and didn't see it as a problem because I got back to a decent position at the bottom. Maybe I used to be in a stronger position. I will have to go back and look at those videos and see if there is a difference.
which Robby's wrist brace do you recommend trying?
-
Early turn creates undesirable ball roll that creates too much over/under reaction. You are much better off in a stronger position with more revolutions and less rotation so the ball is not jumping when it encounters friction.
Any Robby's. Take the metal out. You just want something on your hand and wrist so you can feel it. Most people that have as much hand motion as you do can't feel what they are doing.
-
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk
Thank you for the analysis. Yes I do what you say. I have figured out that my hand turns because of a tight or limited shoulder. When I keep the inside of my elbow pointed to my target, my hand naturally turns inside. This is something I need to work on. I need to consciously rotate my elbow the opposite way or start with my elbow in a contorted position. Only problem with this, is I get some tendon/joint pain after I do this for a while.
It looks like I need to get under the ball more. I guess I need to keep my wrist cupped and cocked so it is a strong position. Any other suggestions?
There is a good chance you cannot not stop your hand from turning in. Im the same way. It is natural for my arm and is very low stress on my shoulder. I have reduced how much I do turn it in and I am happy with it. Stronger wrist position getting more of your hand under the line going across the center of the ball pictured in the previous post above would be good. Maybe bringing your pinky finger in as well could help.
Here is a great link to something you can try practicing to see if it helps give you the feel of a stronger release.
-
I have reduced my turn as well. Same thing going on. Non flexible tendon and shoulder. For me to keep my hand from rotating I would have to point the inside of my elbow at the right wall.
I have seen that drill and tried it. I may need to work on it to get a stronger wrist position and feel. Other issue I have is a callous and pressure on my index finger when I get the ball in that position. I think I put pressure to try to keep the ball on my hand longer. Or I need more right pitch in my thumb and pushing on my index finger pushes the ball in a position for the ball to get off my thumb clean. Trying to fix that issue as well.
Thanks again to everyone for all the help.
-
If you have 3/4 right in you thumb hole as you stated in your first post the last thing you need is more right.
There is a long way between the position you are in and the position in the Slowinski video. Somewhere in between would be a good start.
-
I looked at the video again in slow motion and my hand is a lot closer to that position on my down swing. In slow motion and paused, my index finger is almost behind the ball and pointing straight down, but I do turn it way early before my ball gets to the bottom of the swing. So by the time my ball gets to the bottom, I am already on the outside of the ball.
So I need to wait on it more before turning, or I am turning early because the ball is coming off my hand.
-
If you have 3/4 right in you thumb hole as you stated in your first post the last thing you need is more right.
There is a long way between the position you are in and the position in the Slowinski video. Somewhere in between would be a good start.
If my hand/thumb requires it, then why would more than 3/4 right be wrong? I'm pretty sure I have a unique hand and thumb hinge. When I grab a glass, I grab it with the side of my thumb pretty much. I know 3/4 right is extreme, but I'm just looking for the right fit for my hand. Every driller always put 0 or 1/8 right in my thumb forever. I always needed 3/8 or more of reverse to clear and also a ton of bevel. It wasn't until I punched dozens of holes in a ball that I found that the 3/4 right worked. It allowed me to go to 3/16 reverse with bevel only needed for comfort. I'm looking for a driller that can figure my hand out. Haven't been able to yet.
-
You are turning early because you think you need to in order to get the ball to react, when in fact it's the opposite.
As for pitches here's my take, and I've measured a lot of hands. There are very few people that need extreme pitches. I'm not saying you aren't one of them. But from my experience if you have extreme pitches and think you need to go more extreme to be able to do something you are chasing a unicorn.
-
Where do you live?
-
Where do you live?
Northern California
-
Ive been gone from that area for a while and haven't been back so I can't be much help. I don't think there is anyone left in the Sacramento area to recommend. Milo is a ball ho so he could probably help and I know xrayjay is familiar with quality work so maybe he could also help. Jay is in Sac and I think Milo is in the Stockton area.
-
You are turning early because you think you need to in order to get the ball to react, when in fact it's the opposite.
As for pitches here's my take, and I've measured a lot of hands. There are very few people that need extreme pitches. I'm not saying you aren't one of them. But from my experience if you have extreme pitches and think you need to go more extreme to be able to do something you are chasing a unicorn.
I'll practice and see if I can wait on the ball to get to the bottom before turning.
-
Ive been gone from that area for a while and haven't been back so I can't be much help. I don't think there is anyone left in the Sacramento area to recommend. Milo is a ball ho so he could probably help and I know xrayjay is familiar with quality work so maybe he could also help. Jay is in Sac and I think Milo is in the Stockton area.
I've got to the point I am at on my own, so a lot of proshop guys don't know what to do or are afraid to adjust something because they have never seen a person get out of a ball with 3/4 right in the thumb. And at that thumb angle my thumb drops right in and I don't have any significant rubbing or callouses. I want to find someone that can realize my hand is different and know what to do. Don't know who that would be though.
I've talk to Dave in Stockton a little when he was drilling a ball for my Dad. Didn't get into it too much other that a wide eyed expression when I told him I have 3/4 right in the thumb.
-
You will have a hard time trying to do it without correcting the backswing. It starts with your hand/thumb turning in as it passes your hip in your backswing. When you go practice take some video of your swing so the top is not cut off. I betting it bumps out at the top then you manipulate and redirect it, losing leverage and turning early.
-
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic. Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl. Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.
-
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic. Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl. Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.
I used to be a better bowler when I had more forward in my fingers and lofted the ball. haha. Thanks for the help.
-
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic. Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl. Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.
What do you think about the finger laterals? Is 0 and 3/4 ok or do you prefer 3/8 left 3/8 right? What about 3/4 left in the middle and 0 in the ring?
-
I use finger straightness and relation to thumb pitch to determine a starting point for lateral finger pitches. Unless you had unusually crooked fingers you will probably be uncomfortable and/or tear up your hand using 3/4 left while using 3/4 right in your thumb. The 3/4 right you currently use is probably fine as long as your fingers are relatively straight and this doesn't create pressure on them as you are using that much lateral in the thumb.
-
I use finger straightness and relation to thumb pitch to determine a starting point for lateral finger pitches. Unless you had unusually crooked fingers you will probably be uncomfortable and/or tear up your hand using 3/4 left while using 3/4 right in your thumb. The 3/4 right you currently use is probably fine as long as your fingers are relatively straight and this doesn't create pressure on them as you are using that much lateral in the thumb.
I was thinking of trying 3/4 left middle and 0 ring and then putting the thumb at 0, just to see what it did to my roll and rotation.
-
After finding no drillers that can measure your unique hand and drilling a dozen balls to find the right pitch you are going to change your pitches 3/4". Go back to my post about chasing the unicorn.
Try some neutral pitches and work on your swing and release. That will improve your roll and rotation.
-
Well I went to 1/8 forward in both fingers and reduced the ring finger span a bit. I also went to one size tighter inserts. I think these changes are really helping. I feel I can hold onto the ball a lot better. I feel I can be aggressive with my speed and get plenty of hand where the ball will still hook. I feel that this also relieved some of the pressure on my index finger. Hopefully I don't develop any other issues because of the pitch changes.