Post by: FranVarin on November 25, 2009, 08:43:51 AM
1. It seems that in most cases the Pin ends up located above the fingers and in a spot quite a bit of distance from the fingers in some cases. Since Pin above the fingers causes an increase in length and Pin below the fingers causes the ball to start up sooner. How does this layout technique accommodate that? How can I move the pin either below or above the fingers and still maintain the pin to pap and mb to pap distance?
2. I understand that the smaller the pin buffer the sharper the backend reaction and the longer the pin buffer the smoother the backend. Is there some good documentation on what is the recommended ranges to use for most bowlers? Is there a minimum and maximum size that should be used?
3. Does anyone know of good documentation on this layout technique that goes into reasonable depth on how best to use it for layout?
Any help anyone can provide would really be appreciated!
Fran
Post by: JohnP on November 25, 2009, 07:12:43 PM
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on November 26, 2009, 04:27:22 AM
1. The easiest way to lay out a ball using the pin buffer method is to draw a circle or arc around the pin for the desired pin-axis distance and another arc around the MB for that desired difference. Where those 2 arcs intersect is where you will locate the PAP. You then draw a second circle or arc around the pin for the desired pin buffer distance. Then you draw a tangent line from the PAP that touches the 2nd pin circle line.(for a right hand bowler, this will look like a backwards P. That line is the Vertical Axis Line. Then just back out to the center of grip and you have your layout.
2)Most drillers will not use a pin buffer of less than 1" due to the possibility of a improper or changing axis measurement causing the actual pin buffer to be negative, which often results in reverse flaring of the ball and it flaring over the fingers. Large pin buffers (5+") or ones that end up near or below the midline can cause flaring over the fingers for people with high tracks.
3) I have found that Mo Pinel''s Dual Angle layout is a good method for incorporating pin buffer in the layouts and what the effects will be of various pin distances, buffers and MB distances in an easy to use formula. This is posted on the Morich website.
Joe
Edited on 11/26/2009 5:28 AM
Post by: bluerrpilot on November 26, 2009, 09:29:07 AM
quote:
1. Since Pin above the fingers causes an increase in length and Pin below the fingers causes the ball to start up sooner. How does this layout technique accommodate that?
2. I understand that the smaller the pin buffer the sharper the backend reaction and the longer the pin buffer the smoother the backend. Is there some good documentation on what is the recommended ranges to use for most bowlers? Is there a minimum and maximum size that should be used?
3. Does anyone know of good documentation on this layout technique that goes into reasonable depth on how best to use it for layout?
1. Pin buffer or distance from midline does not determine length. That comes from cover prep and flare.
2. Cover prep along with pin buffer will determine response to friction or transition time.
3. Like another suggestion, look into mo's dual angle technique.
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba
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Post by: JohnP on November 26, 2009, 09:59:40 AM
http://www.morichbowling.com/Drilling/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm
Post by: FranVarin on November 27, 2009, 04:13:22 PM
Fran
Post by: no300yet on November 27, 2009, 07:47:00 PM
Post by: bluerrpilot on November 28, 2009, 08:44:14 AM
quote:
I don't seem to find the "PSA" on my Cells............how do I determine where it is?
The "RG" stamp on the ball is the Mass Bias or PSA mark.
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba
http://www.viseinserts.com/
Post by: no300yet on December 05, 2009, 01:07:44 AM
quote:quote:
I don't seem to find the "PSA" on my Cells............how do I determine where it is?
The "RG" stamp on the ball is the Mass Bias or PSA mark.
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba
http://www.viseinserts.com/
OK! Thanks a lot!
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on December 06, 2009, 04:32:12 PM
http://www.stormbowling.com/drill-specs/key_drilling.pdf
Post by: FranVarin on December 06, 2009, 06:34:08 PM
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on December 07, 2009, 05:00:55 PM
The layouts done this way end up looking about the same as for other methods. I am tempted to say they were arrived at empirically by Storm however you can see this is another way of looking at where the top and side of the core are located in the layout. The PIN is over the top and the KEY lines up with the side of the core. The location of the PIN determines how unstable, or stable the ball is when it rolls. The more unstable locations produce the more flare.
The distance between the flares shown in the diagrams are exaggerated but mostly reflect the Pin to PAP distance.
A ball rolling core on its side, or core end over end are the most stable configurations and will produce little or no flare.
Edited on 12/7/2009 6:04 PM
Post by: FranVarin on December 08, 2009, 02:32:31 PM
Thanks for you response. Yes, I see and agree with your point on the position of the weight block and that either stright up and down or on its side is the most stable position. By putting the weight block in an unstable position cause flare (track migration) as the core wobbles trying to find an axis on which it can revolve around in a balanced position.
I've used the dual angle technique, and Ebonite's Pin distance and single angle. Also, used just distances from Pin to PAP and either CG (symmetric core) or MB (Asymmetric core) to PAP. What I'm wrestling with is that the Storm/Roto Grip approach is really simple and accurate. However, I cannot wrap my head around how the Pin buffer actually effects the layout and subsequent ball motion. What I was hoping to find was some documentation on how changing the pin buffer effects the layout. I agree that the most significant piece to the layout is the Pin to PAP distance. However, the age old argument about the position of the Pin either above or below the fingers still sticks in the back of my head. Is that still a factor with this technique? Is there recommended Pin buffers? Are there Pin buffer distances that should never be used?
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on December 08, 2009, 06:18:08 PM
What I was hoping to find was some documentation on how changing the pin buffer effects the layout."
If you find the documentation please post it - I am sure, really sure I don''t have the resources to try out all the possible configurations even using some old plugged balls.
The Storm/RotoGrip drilling instructions imply there are at least three variables to sort out:
1. Pin buffer distance
2. Pin to PAP distance
3. Key(MB) to PAP distance
A complication would be that drilling the ball makes it more, or less asymmetrical to some degree.
Anyway, it would be a lot of work holding two variables constant and just changing one at a time to understand the entire relationship
To check the effect of Pin buffer only, 6 or 7 tests should about do it since really long pin buffers would take you past the track. This would however only be for one combination of Pin to PAP and Key to PAP if you get my drift.It would take some "decent programming" to simulate this on a computer where you would also have to account for speed, friction, oil and flare.
Edited on 12/8/2009 7:58 PM
Post by: Baliktad on December 09, 2009, 02:50:22 AM
quote:
What I was hoping to find was some documentation on how changing the pin buffer effects the layout."
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/balls/video/default.asp?vname=Seminar12
Here is link to the rotogrip website. Go to Semiar 12 about mid way and they will totally explain what you are looking for.
Post by: Baliktad on December 09, 2009, 02:52:40 AM
quote:
What I was hoping to find was some documentation on how changing the pin buffer effects the layout."
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/balls/video/default.asp?vname=Seminar12
Here is link to the rotogrip website. Start miday in Seminar 12 and the beginning of 13 and they will totally explain what you are looking for.
Post by: JohnP on December 09, 2009, 09:27:01 AM
quote:
However, I cannot wrap my head around how the Pin buffer actually effects the layout and subsequent ball motion.
Pin buffer is simply another way of setting pin height after the PAP location has been determined. Smaller buffer distance gives a higher pin placement and longer buffer distance gives a lower pin placement. All any layout technique can do is set pin to PAP distance, pin to cg or mb distance, and pin height, all of which determine the exact position of the gripping holes. Use whichever system makes the most sense to you. -- JohnP
Post by: TBS1 on December 10, 2009, 08:57:51 AM
--------------------
James McCarter
Co-Owner/Operator
The Bowlers Solution INC
www.bowlerssolution.com
Post by: JohnP on December 10, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
Post by: FranVarin on December 16, 2009, 05:13:42 AM
While in the shop I did what you suggested with the arc from the PAP to PIN and then laid out a ball changing just the Pin buffer. I wanted to pass along that your post help a lot in understanding the effect of the Pin buffer...Thanks! I now have a much better understanding of how to use this technique.
Fran
Post by: JohnP on December 16, 2009, 10:14:46 AM
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on December 26, 2009, 08:38:34 PM
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/pdf/asymmetrical-drill-guide.pdf