BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: toneoak1 on February 15, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
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I can't seem to get a decent reaction from asymmetrical bowling balls. Why is this? I don't have the specifics on all of my specs. For example, I don't know my exact axis tilt. I've never had this measured. I'm left handed, have a high track, and am around 325 RPMs of rev rate. I'm definitely speed/rev matched. I tend to set the ball down early. The majority of the shots off my hand are silent. I ended last year averaging 235 and am consistently over 225. The shot at our local alley changes from week to week, sometimes drastically. If any of that is helpful.
The problem is, I would like to take advantage of the added motion of asym equipment but can't. The last 4 asym balls I've had, I've hated. I never saw the turn over or flip in any of them. I had a Storm Virtual Gravity (yes this was a while ago) and I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy on the planet that didn't like that ball. I had it plugged and re-layed it out and still nothing. I got rid of it and tried a Storm Invasion; Hated it. Down and in was all it did and even then had to be careful. Couldn't belly it at all, which is my typical shot shape. Got rid of it. After some time I thought I'd try one again. (older=wiser right?) I picked up a Motiv Trident after LOVING my previous 4 motiv balls. Same issue. Hated it. No "booming" move what-so-ever. I have a ball spinner and I tried polishing it; Nope. Sanding it; Nothing. Trying many different surface grits; Nada. Put it back in the bag after half a season of experimenting. Went to get it out for this season and it had cracked all the way around. Best thing that could have happened. Got a Motiv Rogue Blade and that ball hockey-sticks for me.
My guess is the ball is too aggressive for my style and is burning up before it gets to the break point. After talking to a buddy about it we noticed my last few asyms were all aggressive SOLIDs. Maybe an asym pearl would help. Something like a Golden Jackyl
I am a mere mortal that has to pay retail or close to it for my bowling balls and can't afford a $270 "experiment".
Anyone in the same boat?????
Any Ideas?????
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What were the layouts? Pin to PAP- MB location - angles etc.??
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It's tough without seeing the reaction or knowing your PAP + axis tilt and rotation.
My general assumption would be the ball is rolling forward too quickly where the pin ended up being too far away from your PAP and/or past your VAL.
I know for myself and a few others that we can't go past 4.5" pin to pap as asymms just transition quicker and roll forward. My asymm layouts are generally 3.5-4.25" pin to pap now because of it
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You average 235 and say the lanes are different every week. Quit searching for the unicorn.
The reality is most better bowlers prefer symmetric balls.
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What were the layouts? Pin to PAP- MB location - angles etc.??
Not positive. When the ball cracked, I returned it to my PSO.
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It's tough without seeing the reaction or knowing your PAP + axis tilt and rotation.
My general assumption would be the ball is rolling forward too quickly where the pin ended up being too far away from your PAP and/or past your VAL.
I know for myself and a few others that we can't go past 4.5" pin to pap as asymms just transition quicker and roll forward. My asymm layouts are generally 3.5-4.25" pin to pap now because of it
I was afraid that I didn't have enough information. I'll bring that up the next time I talk to my driller.
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You average 235 and say the lanes are different every week. Quit searching for the unicorn.
The reality is most better bowlers prefer symmetric balls.
I ended last season at 235. It has been a very different story this year. I probably should've specified that.
This year we've seen everything from long/flat, to huge over/under, to even one night where the oil machine was on the fritz and our lanes was literally over 25 boards apart from one another. I bowl on a team where our 5-man average was 1085 and I shot 640 that night and was the only guy over 550. 3 guys didn't break 500. It's like a new house every night, and we get very little warm up time; usually 3 frames, so 6 shots max.
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Layouts for asymmetrical balls are different than for symmetrical balls. Don't expect your favorite symmetrical layout to work on an asymmetrical. Find a driller that knows how to lay asymmetrics out. -- JohnP
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Layouts for asymmetrical balls are different than for symmetrical balls. Don't expect your favorite symmetrical layout to work on an asymmetrical. Find a driller that knows how to lay asymmetrics out. -- JohnP
I do understand that part. I do trust my driller as well. I have watched many of Mo Pinel's videos on reactions and layouts. He hit on this very subject in his video, "The Rules have Changed". He said if this is the case, put the PSA in the thumb hole. I took a look at my cracked Trident after that and that is exactly where it was. Thus adding to my confusion.
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My guess is that the problem is coverstock related. Most top shelf asyms not only have stronger cores than our favourite midrange symmetrics, but they also use stronger coverstocks. Its very much possible that these covers are just too strong and aren't matching up to the patterns which you are seeing at your home centre.
Look into something in the mid-upper range with asymmetry that gets down the lane a little easier like the Vintage Vapor Zone
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You average 235 and say the lanes are different every week. Quit searching for the unicorn.
The reality is most better bowlers prefer symmetric balls.
I have a good friend who was a 2x junior team USA member and his answer is always “asym is NEVER the answerâ€.
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What balls DO work well for you?
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My guess is that the problem is coverstock related. Most top shelf asyms not only have stronger cores than our favourite midrange symmetrics, but they also use stronger coverstocks. Its very much possible that these covers are just too strong and aren't matching up to the patterns which you are seeing at your home centre.
Look into something in the mid-upper range with asymmetry that gets down the lane a little easier like the Vintage Vapor Zone
^^^This. Asymms already have a shorter hook zone than symmetricals, so when you add stronger covers as well, they lose energy rather quickly. Assym balls will transition faster off of friction than a symm ball will, but the trick is that friction isn't always down lane. Brandons recommendation for the Vapor Zone is very good given the limited info provided. That or any other milder cover asymm ball that is intended for skid/flip sounds like what you're really looking for. I'm not referring to pearl versions of high end asymm balls because they typically still don't have much pop on average conditions. They are still strong balls and strong covers and intended to cover boards, not retain lots of energy, just more energy than their solid counterpart.
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my Buddy is in up the back bowler,5-1/2" PAP, negative tilt, 30* rotation and around 350 rpm's. He always is stuck in the track and it makes me cringe to watch him force that line when I know you can just move left but everytime he tried it the ball wouldn't face up. I talked him into a gold kingpin with a 70x3.5x30 layout and low and behold he can step left and is killing it with that ball. more 250+ games in a month then I think he's shot in years.
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He also has a DV8 grudge hybrid he likes for first game. don't know the exact specs of the layout but the pin is a good 5" pin to pap with the mb next to thumb. that ball rolls very straight for him with a very mild backend.
I hope these two examples help...
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What balls DO work well for you?
I currently am using motiv. I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl. I've really liked all of them. When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others. I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil. I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back. I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it. Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned. I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago. All symmetrical. The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
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You average 235 and say the lanes are different every week. Quit searching for the unicorn.
The reality is most better bowlers prefer symmetric balls.
I have a good friend who was a 2x junior team USA member and his answer is always “asym is NEVER the answerâ€.
That's good to know. ;D ;D
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My guess is that the problem is coverstock related. Most top shelf asyms not only have stronger cores than our favourite midrange symmetrics, but they also use stronger coverstocks. Its very much possible that these covers are just too strong and aren't matching up to the patterns which you are seeing at your home centre.
Look into something in the mid-upper range with asymmetry that gets down the lane a little easier like the Vintage Vapor Zone
^^^This. Asymms already have a shorter hook zone than symmetricals, so when you add stronger covers as well, they lose energy rather quickly. Assym balls will transition faster off of friction than a symm ball will, but the trick is that friction isn't always down lane. Brandons recommendation for the Vapor Zone is very good given the limited info provided. That or any other milder cover asymm ball that is intended for skid/flip sounds like what you're really looking for. I'm not referring to pearl versions of high end asymm balls because they typically still don't have much pop on average conditions. They are still strong balls and strong covers and intended to cover boards, not retain lots of energy, just more energy than their solid counterpart.
That's not a bad idea at all. Picking up a less expensive or even a gently used asymmetrical ball and experimenting with some surface adjustments is a good idea. I could try different things without having a ton of money tied up in it. I hate to change the surface or plug and redrill a ball that I haven't had very long. Thanks. I will definitely look into this.
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What balls DO work well for you?
I currently am using motiv. I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl. I've really liked all of them. When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others. I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil. I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back. I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it. Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned. I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago. All symmetrical. The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
If you liked the Black Widows, get yourself a Black Ops. Seriously, the Widow and the Break (same ball as the Black Ops) look almost identical motion wise on the lanes.
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What balls DO work well for you?
I currently am using motiv. I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl. I've really liked all of them. When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others. I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil. I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back. I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it. Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned. I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago. All symmetrical. The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
Venom Recoil may do the trick. Videos should start popping up over the next 2 weeks.
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the very first thing I do is change the surface on a new ball that is not to my liking. I'll go to the extreme and add a lot of surface to very smooth and polish sometimes on a ball if it's really off from what I was expecting. Takes a lot of trial and error before I give up. thankfully my own experiences over the years has lead me to better choices even though I will venture out with an "experiment" now and then.
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the very first thing I do is change the surface on a new ball that is not to my liking. I'll go to the extreme and add a lot of surface to very smooth and polish sometimes on a ball if it's really off from what I was expecting. Takes a lot of trial and error before I give up. thankfully my own experiences over the years has lead me to better choices even though I will venture out with an "experiment" now and then.
Nail on the head ^^^^
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Hey toneoak1, love doom’s suggestion, black ops is a great ball choice. Clean, smooth, with good continuation. Very versatile as well to surface adjustments. Maybe try it with a pin up close to the Val for even more continuation. I just ordered my second black ops from buddies pro shop, $109.95. Free shipping. Great price. Sounds like your asymmetricals are burning up early, stopping on the backend. You need more continuation through the pins. With the new usbc rules >:( you are going to start seeing more companies making asymmetrical balls since you can’t change the psa, or mb in symmetrical balls using weight holes after August 2020. After that all symmetrical balls will end up wth the psa, mb in the thumb no matter how you drill them.
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Try a Storm Code X pin down. Closes asym ball to a sym that you will get. Very smooth
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Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters. You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them. Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs. They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.
Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster. I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed".
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Great point agroves. You are correct. 5+ inch pins on asymmetricals from pap do burn for me. Years ago the saying use to be driil strong balls weak, and weak balls strong. Times are changing. Maybe this is why Mo Pinel, radical don’t suggest drilling weaker than 5 inch pins on any of their equipment. Kinda makes sense now.
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Great point agroves. You are correct. 5+ inch pins on asymmetricals from pap do burn for me. Years ago the saying use to be driil strong balls weak, and weak balls strong. Times are changing. Maybe this is why Mo Pinel, radical don’t suggest drilling weaker than 5 inch pins on any of their equipment. Kinda makes sense now.
There's a difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical.
Symmetrical max flare is 3 3/8" from PAP.
Asymmetrical max flare is 2.25" - 6.75" minimum flare is 0 - 2.25"
Shorter distance retains tilt longer, longer distance burns tilt faster with asymmetrical
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Agree with all of it sv. Find it interesting though that mo, radicals drill charts range from pins 2 1/4-5 1/4 inch distance from pap on all balls. Asymmetrical,
and symmetrical. That’s a pretty strong high flaring range. I can’t drill balls with high pins 3-4 inches from my pap, either asymmetrical, or symmetrical because it flares over my thumbhole. Bummer. :(
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OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.
https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY
https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o
Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.
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What balls DO work well for you?
I currently am using motiv. I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl. I've really liked all of them. When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others. I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil. I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back. I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it. Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned. I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago. All symmetrical. The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
Venom Recoil may do the trick. Videos should start popping up over the next 2 weeks.
I did watch EJ throw it this past weekend. I was surprised to see how much flare that ball showed. The ball I'm trying to replace has a lot of flare. I know that ball will probably be mid-priced, so it's looking like a great option. Thanks.
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Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters. You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them. Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs. They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.
Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster. I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed".
We have one PSO in town and he's not good at all. I bought one ball from him for my wife and told him how I wanted it layed out. It came back not even close. The same year a friend of mine bought two balls from him and the first night we bowled with his new equipment he had a ball hang up on his thumb and it literally hit the ceiling about 15 feet downlane. Just like a youtube fail video. The guy I go to now only comes to town every 3rd week but he's excellent. He has my Specs on file and knows my PAP. I've just never sat down and gone through it all with him in a long time as he is usually very busy when he DOES come to town. I did post a reply with 2 videos of me rolling 2 different balls. I'm hoping the visual will help someone make a solid estimate as to why strong asymmetrical balls and I do not get along. I'm thinking you're right about the massive loss of energy. Please take a look at the videos. I'm curious about your opinion.
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To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.
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To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.
AWESOME. THANK YOU!!!
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To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.
Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.
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To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.
Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.
To get a true read, do this on the least dynamic ball you have.
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To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.
Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.
To get a true read, do this on the least dynamic ball you have.
That was going to be my next question. I have a couple that don't flare much and one that flares a ton. Thanks for reading my mind.
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Great point doom. I traced my track from a high pin black ops few years back. Came out pap 4 3/8 over, up 1/4. Well turns out I was way off all this time. Just did the powerhouse bowler I’d test. Came out 5 3/8 over, up 7/8. Huge difference. I recommend doing this test if your pso has the kit. Also measures speed, tilt, rev rate. Great tool, very accurate. If not measure your track with a plastic, urethane ball that doesn’t flare.
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Great point doom. I traced my track from a high pin black ops few years back. Came out pap 4 3/8 over, up 1/4. Well turns out I was way off all this time. Just did the powerhouse bowler I’d test. Came out 5 3/8 over, up 7/8. Huge difference. I recommend doing this test if your pso has the kit. Also measures speed, tilt, rev rate. Great tool, very accurate. If not measure your track with a plastic, urethane ball that doesn’t flare.
+1
This is the part where I get confused.
On high flaring balls my track is considerably lower then on low flaring balls even though my track diameter stays the same. I have my own theory that because the high flaring stuff has way more shape and my trajectory is different that my release is different between low flaring and high flaring balls but that doesn't really explain how the track diameter stays the same other then tilt stays the same regardless.
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Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters. You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them. Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs. They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.
Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster. I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed".
I would agree with this as well. I experience the same issues. And ironically the Hammer Widows are pretty much the only asymmetrical balls that have worked well for me.
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OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.
https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY
https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o
Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.
Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.
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OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.
https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY
https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o
Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.
Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.
+1. No bonus points for boards covered and never know what you match up well with.
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OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.
https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY
https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o
Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.
Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.
Appreciate the input. With the new drilling limitations, more companies are going to put out more asymmetrical equipment. I prefer motiv and I see one of their most popular lines (venom) just released an asym core. I love that line but am super hesitant to look into the new Recoil. I just hope they don't quit on symmetrical cores entirely. I'll have to take up a new hobby like involuntary taxidermy.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
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To be really clear Toneoak1, I would like to understand.
Way back in your orignial one or two posts you mentioned that you plugged and redrilled your original Virtual Gravity. Was that after buying it from another bowler? Or after buying new and drilling it the first time?
You see the only reason is that as a lefty also I would occasionally pick up Assym balls from righties. Usually when I switch to Lefty I do not find the to be full horsepower even after a single redrill.
For Symmetric I also often switch righty balls to lefty and don't encounter this problem
Note I do not run into this problem as much when the MB is under the thumb already or if symmetric is a label leverage for a righty. Then it seems the ball with virtually only moving the fingers is full horse power on the left.
Another thing I have noticed, Well that is enough for now!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I had bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well. Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much. Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line. They are made to move inside and catch oil.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well. Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much. Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line. They are made to move inside and catch oil.
I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point? The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem. Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well. Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much. Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line. They are made to move inside and catch oil.
I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point? The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem. Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.
Won't argue that. Asyms are overrated in general imo. Condition specific by definition usually. Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.
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To be really clear Toneoak1, I would like to understand.
Way back in your orignial one or two posts you mentioned that you plugged and redrilled your original Virtual Gravity. Was that after buying it from another bowler? Or after buying new and drilling it the first time?
You see the only reason is that as a lefty also I would occasionally pick up Assym balls from righties. Usually when I switch to Lefty I do not find the to be full horsepower even after a single redrill.
For Symmetric I also often switch righty balls to lefty and don't encounter this problem
Note I do not run into this problem as much when the MB is under the thumb already or if symmetric is a label leverage for a righty. Then it seems the ball with virtually only moving the fingers is full horse power on the left.
Another thing I have noticed, Well that is enough for now!
Regards,
Luckylefty
Good point. That ball was brand new. It didn't do for me what it did for every other person I've ever seen throw it, so I had it plugged and re-layed out. Didn't seem to do much good.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
Glad to know it's not just me.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
Glad to know it's not just me.
I too did the same as you with the Virtual Gravity. Everyone was killing it with the VG so I got one. It wasn't a complete dud for me, but it didn't do what everyone else was getting it to do. I also recently got a Cash when it was BTM's highest rated hooking ball. Did nothing. Right after I got it I threw it and the guy that drilled it was like "what happened?" This was on a house shot. He had me throw a bunch of shots on other parts of the lane and he couldn't explain it. He said that ball should either go crazy left or hit dry and roll forward. Like every other ball it did neither.. just sat there rotating down the lane not hooking and when it did read still not hooking. I don't have a ton of revs but I'm pretty matched so it isn't for lack of rpm. On a house shot, I can usually swing the whole lane with my rebel yell... I just picked up a Sure Lock so I'll see how that goes. 5" pin to PAP with the MB just to the right of the thumb.. I was going to drill it like an Alias to negate the MB, but it had already got punched up. That might be my next experiment with an asymmetric ball.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well. Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much. Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line. They are made to move inside and catch oil.
I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point? The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem. Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.
Won't argue that. Asyms are overrated in general imo. Condition specific by definition usually. Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.
Asym balls are a beautiful thing to have in the bag if you can figure out what drilling works for you game on them. I personally think they are worth the exploration to figure it out. Most that don't like them just haven't dialed one in yet because they are so dynamic.
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Obviously you hsve some game with your average. 80% of ball reaction is surface, not core so you are not going to get as big a difference with the asym as you expect. Also, You may be right about the asyms burning early. The problem is taming the surface may give you more reaction than you want off the dry.
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Great point Alonzo. Most people just put their favorite, same drilling in asymmetricals that they have in their symmetricals. Drilling asymmetricals are totally different. They retain tilt, side roll, energy most with pin distances 2 3/4- 4 1/2 from a bowlers pap. As you gat away from that distance, say 6 inch pin to pap it will do the opposite and lose tilt. Perfect example for me is my conspiracy drilled stacked 4 1/2x4 1/2 that retains energy is clean and backends compared to my dv8 rebellion with a 6 1/4 inch pin that burns up early. Conspiracy flares a ton more, yet goes longer and flips harder. I find that very interesting. Conspiracy is great for heavy oil, carry down. Rebellion is early and smooth. great for shorter patterns, and wet dry. So they both have their place in my bag. Both great balls. With the new no hole rule coming you are going to see a lot more asymmetricals from companies in the future. So it’s a matter of experimenting and fine tuning what drilling’s work for your game, just as Alonzo said.
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If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.
Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.
I don’t know where anyone can use a Rip’d up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot. The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet. I tried to move and there was no swinging. When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket. Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape. I just don't get it. And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house. I had the same thing with my widow legend. Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well. Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much. Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line. They are made to move inside and catch oil.
I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point? The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem. Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.
Won't argue that. Asyms are overrated in general imo. Condition specific by definition usually. Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.
Asym balls are a beautiful thing to have in the bag if you can figure out what drilling works for you game on them. I personally think they are worth the exploration to figure it out. Most that don't like them just haven't dialed one in yet because they are so dynamic.
TL;DR +1. More flexibility on layouts is a good thing for many people especially with balance holes soon 86ed. Just tend to score better with symmetrics but probably mostly due to not getting my release rock solid consistent yet.
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J_w73[/quote]
I too did the same as you with the Virtual Gravity. Everyone was killing it with the VG so I got one. It wasn't a complete dud for me, but it didn't do what everyone else was getting it to do. I also recently got a Cash when it was BTM's highest rated hooking ball. Did nothing. Right after I got it I threw it and the guy that drilled it was like "what happened?" This was on a house shot. He had me throw a bunch of shots on other parts of the lane and he couldn't explain it. He said that ball should either go crazy left or hit dry and roll forward. Like every other ball it did neither.. just sat there rotating down the lane not hooking and when it did read still not hooking. I don't have a ton of revs but I'm pretty matched so it isn't for lack of rpm. On a house shot, I can usually swing the whole lane with my rebel yell... I just picked up a Sure Lock so I'll see how that goes. 5" pin to PAP with the MB just to the right of the thumb.. I was going to drill it like an Alias to negate the MB, but it had already got punched up. That might be my next experiment with an asymmetric ball.
[/quote]
Well the Sure Lock hooks. A little over 5 inch pin to pap , pin over middle finger, mb just to the right of the thumb hole. Ball hooked early and when I threw it harder it was still hooking back from places my rip'd solid , legend, and idol wouldn't recover from. I could get them to hook but had to throw much slower.. Idol was about as early but when I threw it harder it just didn't have the recovery. My Legend is drilled pretty much the same with a 4000 cover. Idol same pin to pap, cover at 2000. Rip'd has cover at 2000, 4" pin to Pap, mb about an inch farther right than the surelock and legend. Pap is 4 3/4 over and 1/4 up.