Author Topic: Success with Label Leverage ? (Read 9005 times)

Pat Patterson · « **on:** December 18, 2008, 07:00:08 AM »

Has/or does anyone still use label leverage layouts? I have a Lane Masters Sting drilled this way and my average has increased from 220 to 230 in the last 2 months with 10 700+ series between 2 leagues and nother lower than 650.

Should a give the layout all the credit, since nothing with my game or the house I bowl in has changed?

Also thinking about drilling up a couple of more this way from my current stock of 10 NIB Lane Masters stuff, any suggestions on which ones would benefit from this drilling? Balls are listed in Profile for reference.

Thank You,

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Pat Patterson

neverbackdown_x7x · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2008, 04:37:26 AM »

I have a label layout on my Kinetic Energy and I do quite well with it because it makes the ball a little more controllable in the backend. The only thing I tend to worry about is the track going over the thumbhole but that hasn't happen yet. I've also used this type of layout on a Secret Agent and Action but the so far I've gotten the best reaction and motion from the KE.

no300tj · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2008, 08:58:10 AM »

I love this layout. I have a Depth Charge with the pin @ 5 oclock to the ring and the CG in the palm. This was my best ball during the PBAX league this summer.
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whoever said size doesn't matter never had trouble with a thumbhole

BOWLGNUT · « **Reply #18 on:** December 20, 2008, 09:29:34 AM »

I have use Label leverage on AMF Victory X out ball and I play straight or down and in- even swing the ball as well.I don't have the ball any more.

bestbudzs24 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 24, 2008, 12:23:53 AM »

i am not a fan of label drillings. IMO label drills are a very generic way to lay out a ball.more for beginners who dont know their PAP.these drills are favorites among pro shop owners who are just looking for the quick in and out sale.for me almost all my equipment is drilled stacked leverage or CG out.
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" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"

Pat Patterson · « **Reply #20 on:** December 24, 2008, 01:11:26 AM »

quote:
i am not a fan of label drillings. IMO label drills are a very generic way to lay out a ball.more for beginners who dont know their PAP.these drills are favorites among pro shop owners who are just looking for the quick in and out sale.for me almost all my equipment is drilled stacked leverage or CG out.
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" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"

My Sting was laid-out utilizing my PAP, and as I originally stated it's currently my best hitting ball of all that I currently own.

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Pat Patterson

leftyinsnellville · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2008, 03:09:14 AM »

Pat,

The Sting is a great ball and the label leverage drilling will provide some consistency, but give yourself some credit. You're getting the great scores because you're throwing the ball damn good! Congrats on some phenomenal bowling!
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220...221...whatever it takes.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2008, 06:26:17 AM »

Well....Pat just out of interest I was gonna ask your PAP.

Then I checked your profile.

4 and something and up an inch. Just before I saw that I was gonna muse....

"I bet he has a significant UP pap"

U see....your up PAP is going to make your version of a 4 X 4 look like label leverage but my 4 X 4 is going to look like a pure stacked as my pap is over 5 1/4 and up 1/8.

The difference is your 4 X 4 which looks like my 4 X 5 does not roll for you like my 4 X 5.

Bottom line....label leverage tends to work for those who make the lane look like there is a lot of early friction on it......because of their roll.

As Randy Pederson once said while punching up some balls in a house I was visiting. "Does anyone even use label leverage anymore?".

I think that was in reference to the oilier conditions he was dealing with on tour.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I also bowl in a house with 30 feet of pavement and then some oil near the breakpoint. Label leverage pin down and shiny surfaces and a broken back wrist work well.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

novawagonmaster · « **Reply #23 on:** December 27, 2008, 04:21:03 PM »

quote:
To inconsistant for my taste...
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My bowling site: http://home.comcast.net/~zeusjr73/ Newly Updated
My eBay site: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZzeusjr73

zeus, you know you love the label drill

I actually had a great deal of success with a "label 1:30 drill" on several Lane #1 balls. For me, that layout placed the pin in a leverage position (3-3/8 from PAP), and the CG was just slightly right of grip center. I rarely used an X-hole on these.

For me, this layout worked great playing up the boards. That said, when I had to chase the shot to an inside angle, I could not get the ball to finish. I tried several different surfaces and balls with this layout, but none of them worked well swinging the ball.
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Jon (in Ohio)
aka: Rico SwervÃ©~

FranVarin · « **Reply #24 on:** December 29, 2008, 10:48:14 AM »

Take a look at layout #1 and adjust for your PAP:

http://ebonite.com/images/uploads/drill_instructions/symmetric_core/symmetric_core.pdf

That will give you a good idea of a label leverage layout. I have a couple of balls drilled like this. Works great for most typical house conditions.

As pointed out above, Asymmetrical balls are a different animal. Notice URL and PDF I included is for Symmetric core balls.

Fran

quote:
What is label leverage layout?

- If you have a PAP of 3-1/2 over & 1 up, it means almost pin axis drilling, very early and smooooth!
- If I have a PAP of 4-1/2 over & 1 up, it's gonna be close to 3-3/8 to PAP, which is strongest pin position
- If you have a PAP of 6 over, it means less flare and length!

So again, what is label and label leverage for that matter?
Secondly, how can one make a comment by comparing apples and oranges?

Label can be apple for my style and can be a watermelon for yours!

If Label/Label leverage stands for a specific distance from one's PAP, than please ignore my ignorance and disregard this post..
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Regards,
Natal

Edited on 12/29/2008 11:55 AM

Burak Natal · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2008, 03:38:10 PM »

FranVarin, my friend,

Do you really think that I literally asked that question? I was not asking what it was, I do know it well. My point was something different, but I guess I couldn't make myself clear enough. Never mind..

Thank you anyway..

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Regards,
Natal

FranVarin · « **Reply #26 on:** December 29, 2008, 08:32:25 PM »

quote:
FranVarin, my friend,

Do you really think that I literally asked that question? I was not asking what it was, I do know it well. My point was something different, but I guess I couldn't make myself clear enough. Never mind..

Thank you anyway..

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Regards,
Natal

Natal,
I'm not looking to insult anyone. I have read your post several times to see where I may have misunderstood your intent. I don't see the point you are trying to make but, will conceded that you clearly were attempting to get an idea across.

The only idea that I see in your post is that you seem to be concerned with the location of the PAP and how it will change the look of a layout from bowler to bowler. Assuming that is where you were heading, 3 3/8 remains the leverage distance for Pin to PAP measurement for Symmetric cores regardless of where the PAP is. Yes, I certainly agree that it will change the look of the layout. Can we agree on the above?

Now one interesting point is the location of the CG with respect to the layout. The location of the CG matters only if you intend on using an x-hole to tweak the ball reaction. By placing the CG to the positive side of the grip center in excess of approximately 1" will create positive side weight which can be removed by a weight hole. So, you could get creative with a weight hole in that case to tweak ball reaction while removing the side weight. Other than that the location of the CG does not have an appreciable effect on ball reaction...please take a look at the link below.

http://brunsnick.com/faq.html

...look at the "CG's Don't Matter" video. Nick offers some pretty compelling evidence.

So, back on the original point, depending on where the PAP is, you can still get the CG near the grip center by using either shorter or longer Pin distances as dictated by the bowler's PAP.

Regards,
Fran

http://http://

Burak Natal · « **Reply #27 on:** December 30, 2008, 01:31:54 AM »

FranVarin,
I appreciate your contribution.

No I did not take offense, and yes I agree with you on that.

Look of the lay-out, ofcourse, will vary. My point is, that simply conflicts with the so called" label" thing! "label" means, placing the pin in relation to your ring finger.
You can adjust location of the CG to give enough room for a x-hole for fine tuning. But you can NOT COMPARE label on my ball with a label on your ball, even if we have similar rev rate and speed.

I have two students:
One has a PAP of 3-1/2 over and 1 up
Other has PAP of 6 over

- For the first one, label means (whatever the CG location is ) around 2 to 2-1/2 from his PAP, which can be considered as "pin-axis".
If you place it in leverage pin position, which is ofcourse 3-3/8 inches from his axis, it would end up in the middle finger or above or below it.

- For the second one, briefly, it will be around 5 inches from his PAP

So, if you ask to those two "what you guys think about "label"" question, one would say "early and smooth", while other may say "long and strong". Please keep in mind that both have high rev & high speed players.

I agree, you can use some generic drillings, to be on the safe side if you will, for those you don't know their PAP's and beginners. More or less, "generally", it's gonna be close to stronger pin position and you do not clip holes. Furthermore, you still can fine tune the reaction by either x-hole or surface or both.

However, again, you can NOT COMPARE label on my ball with a label on your ball. Thus, you can not ask questions in that regard. There is, absolutely no meaning! This is my point!

On the other hand, you can compare "5 inches from PAP with a 2 inch pin buffer without x-hole" drilling. That will make sense! It's all physics, not a paint job.

Unfortunately, not all of us are knowledgeable enough to talk with that jargon, and it is definitely not necessary. That is why drilling is a professional service!

There are drillers and there are those just punching holes! That is why, manufacturers have to address that knowledge gap. Sometimes, "to be on the safe side", they have to use recommendations like "placing the MB half way between thumb and VAL" instead of giving exact lay-out measurements.
Remember those so called drillers punching asymmetrical balls "label" for a strong reaction and whining that it does not hook and blah blah afterwards! Sheeesh!

PS: thanks for reminding me about CG & weight hole relation, which I've been posting exactly so for many years..

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Regards,
Natal

Edited on 12/30/2008 2:32 AM

Edited on 12/30/2008 2:37 AM

FranVarin · « **Reply #28 on:** December 30, 2008, 06:22:57 AM »

OK Natal,
I see what you were trying to get across and am in complete agreement. I can't tell you how many times I've read a post or review that contains information (or picture) of a Pin and CG location without regard for the bowler's PAP expecting that to be of value to a reader.

I too have many students who do not have even an entry level understanding of layout and expected reaction. I'm amazed by some of those with more advanced games and their lack of knowledge since they have had a level of competitive success. I often wonder at how much more they would be able to achieve if they had an understanding of surface prep and layout.

All of us at the shop I work in do our best to inform bowlers of such things since we feel it will make people better bowlers and more informed consumers.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic so, I'll end my "rant".

Regards,
Fran

Burak Natal · « **Reply #29 on:** December 30, 2008, 08:33:19 AM »

quote:
Anyway, I'm getting off topic so, I'll end my "rant".

Your "rant" will be always welcomed..

Thanks
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Regards,
Natal

JohnP · « **Reply #30 on:** December 30, 2008, 10:01:20 AM »

To me, "label" means nothing. However, "label leverage" does mean something - the pin is 3 3/8" from the PAP and the cg is as close to grip center as it can be, while maintaining the 3 3/8".
A few years ago I had a customer tell me he wanted Ebonite's #2 (I think) layout. I used the pin to PAP and pin to cg distances specified and placed the pin at the bottom of the safe zone. The customer was not happy. It didn't look like the picture! I tried to explain that the look of the layout varies with the PAP location, but he was adamant that it should look like the picture. He took the ball to another driller and had it plugged and redrilled. I learned a valuable lesson, when I've layed out a ball, especially a high end ball, I draw the approximate hole locations on the ball and show it to the customer. And for internet balls I have an agreement showing the layout that we decide on that the customer signs. That way there's no misunderstanding. I'm finally going to get to drill another ball for the customer I'm talking about this afternoon, and I will make him happy this time. -- JohnP

Author Topic: Success with Label Leverage ? (Read 9005 times)

Pat Patterson

Success with Label Leverage ?

neverbackdown_x7x

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

no300tj

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

BOWLGNUT

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

bestbudzs24

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

Pat Patterson

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

leftyinsnellville

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

LuckyLefty

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

novawagonmaster

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

FranVarin

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

Burak Natal

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

FranVarin

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

Burak Natal

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

FranVarin

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

Burak Natal

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?

JohnP

Re: Success with Label Leverage ?