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Author Topic: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed  (Read 2684 times)

bowler33

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Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« on: May 29, 2024, 03:45:27 PM »
Just had my PAP re-checked and it went from 4 3/4 over and 1/2 up to 3 1/4 over and 1/2 up. Looking for suggestions on drilling a sublime for this.track and rev dominant. My.favorite symmetrical ball now is a Venom.shock and with my new track it maps out 2 1/4 X 0. Yes the pin is on the VAL. This does not seem.like a good layout buy the ball rolls.pretty good. I hesitate to drill.another ball with this layout. Common sense says something like 5 X 30 would.be better for a low track rev dominant bowler. Am I missing something here? Any thoughts.would be appreciated. I am about 11 mph at release, and I assume.have a lot.of tilt.with the low track. Thanks.

 

SVstar34

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 05:28:14 PM »
In the average cases, those with high tilt generally want pin positions that use tilt faster rather than retain longer.
On asymmetrical cores, that generally means longer like 5"+. On symmetrical cores, generally 4" and shorter which could be why you like the Venom Shock.

I have been bowling with someone who is similar with spinning it a lot and they've done well recently with a Tour DynamX also short pin with the pin on VAL. They are about 15--16mph at release though.

Again I say generally for the average high tilt situation, because it's tough if you're actually dealing with only 11mph ball speed at release which would mean 9ish mph down lane
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 05:33:47 PM by SVstar34 »

justlane

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2024, 08:07:32 AM »
This is not a layout idea, but a suggestion based on a recent personal experience.

Recently I noticed my track was lower than normal, so checked my PAP, and sure enough, it was.  My experience told me to get the thumb out earlier so I spent the next two weeks focusing on that, and better ball motion returned. 

If I were you I'd try that because the results were immediate and obvious.  Staying behind the ball longer and freeing up the arm swing were critical to me using less grip pressure and fixing the problem I had slowly gotten into.

Layout is third down the list of importance to ball motion behind 1) the bowler's speed, release characteristics, etc, and 2) surface texture of the ball.  When we track that low and have so much tilt we "paint ourselves into a corner" so to speak, and limit what layout options are there. 

If you train yourself to work on #1 above then your bowling will open up options rather than limit them.  Just an idea from personal experience and not criticizing anything about where you're at. 


Lane Carter

bowler33

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2024, 12:00:15 PM »
I seem to get better carry now with the lower track. If you watch some of MO Panels old videoes he specifically mentions that if you stay behind the ball too much,.you better bring your spare ball. He advocates for really getting around the ball for today's game. So I am just trying to find some layouts that will maximize this new track. I do welcome these comments and am always trying to improve my game. Was thinking about drilling the SUBLIME like the Shock, but moving over about 1 1/2 or 2 inches away from the VAL. Low flare with a 20-30 degree VAL angle. Any thoughts?

king of the mill

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2024, 12:28:12 AM »
Short pin layouts (pin distances from 1 1/4" - 2 1/4" from your PAP) work extremely well for many lower speed rev dominant bowlers. 

Have you measured your tilt?  A lowered PAP number does not always equate to a higher tilt number.  I would choose the actual layout distance based on your measured tilt. https://youtu.be/jVsTEuRUvi8?si=v_sNT6jjjv1fVqkJ

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justlane

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2024, 10:26:59 PM »
I seem to get better carry now with the lower track. If you watch some of MO Panels old videoes he specifically mentions that if you stay behind the ball too much,.you better bring your spare ball. He advocates for really getting around the ball for today's game. So I am just trying to find some layouts that will maximize this new track. I do welcome these comments and am always trying to improve my game. Was thinking about drilling the SUBLIME like the Shock, but moving over about 1 1/2 or 2 inches away from the VAL. Low flare with a 20-30 degree VAL angle. Any thoughts?
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Where I bowl there's actually oil on the lanes, and plenty of it. The more I "spin" the ball the worse it gets because the ball never gets to the roll phase on a regular basis, causing the endless 10 pins.  With plenty of dry then tilt will be your friend.  Best of luck to you.

Lane Carter

bowler33

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2024, 11:16:38 AM »
Our house shot is 43 feet and 25 or 26 ml. So plenty of oil, but it is tapered some so not a huge wall. I normally use strong balls that work well for me. A shines up.UFO and Halo Vision are 2 of my favorites along with the Venom shock. The Shock actually covers more boards than the 2 assyms. Just wanted to try the new AI technology in the Sublime and since my PAP has changed I really would like to.get the layout right. Thanks for all the input.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2024, 07:42:23 AM »
Our house shot is 43 feet and 25 or 26 ml. So plenty of oil, but it is tapered some so not a huge wall. I normally use strong balls that work well for me. A shines up.UFO and Halo Vision are 2 of my favorites along with the Venom shock. The Shock actually covers more boards than the 2 assyms. Just wanted to try the new AI technology in the Sublime and since my PAP has changed I really would like to.get the layout right. Thanks for all the input.

The reason your Shock could cover more boards is because of your ball speed.  If it is as slow as you say it is; asyms tend to not be a good match because they have higher differentials and the intermediate diff will make the ball want to stand up and roll out.  The Shock being a lower diff symmetrical will save some energy for the backend because the flare potential is pretty small by comparison.  It wont over-flare and get pukey.  I would think for you, balls like the Tundras, Hustles, and Raw Hammers would work well on lighter conditions and Rattlers, Shocks, and IQs when there is a little more oil simply because the diffs are lower but covers are stronger to handle the oil.  You would tend to want to steer towards balls with different cover strengths as opposed to core strengths.  My fear with the Sublime is that it has a pretty strong core and it would want to overpower the cover.  If you go with a Sublime, you want to consider a low flaring layout so the core doesnt want to start up too soon.
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

bowler33

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2024, 01:55:19 PM »
More than likely going to use a low flare layout on the Sublime. Any reason to.go less than 2 1/4 pin to PAP? Just not sure if I want to keep.the pin on the VAL or.move it over 1 or 2 inches. Thanks.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2024, 06:45:04 AM »
More than likely going to use a low flare layout on the Sublime. Any reason to.go less than 2 1/4 pin to PAP? Just not sure if I want to keep.the pin on the VAL or.move it over 1 or 2 inches. Thanks.

Have to remember something.  The Sublime is strong and having the pin closer to the PAP will make the ball want to read even sooner.  However; if you went with 6 inch pin to PAP, that is also a lower flaring layout but will make the ball float longer down the lane before the core wants to take over.  You can get away with a 2 1/4 pin to PAP on the Shock because it is not a strong core by todays standards.  If your Shock is your favorite ball; then how much more hook are you wanting compared to it?  Another thing is the higher the second drilling angle; the tighter the flare rings will be also.  But with your low ball speed combined with the strength of the core; I would recommend a longer pin to PAP to help get the ball down the lane.  But with that said; your proshop guy knows your game better that we do and see what he said regarding a pin to PAP of 6 - 6 1/4 inches from your PAP.
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

itsallaboutme

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Re: Symmetrical layout for low track low speed
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2024, 12:35:29 PM »
Before you drill anything, have your PAP checked again.  It is extremely rare for a person to change their axis point by an inch and a half without some type of injury and/or significant time off, even if you're trying to change it.