If one does not have a fitting ball (the best method) but wants to get there lateral thumb pitch correct.  A very important task analgous to getting a proper grip in golf.

You see the proper lateral thumb pitch allows one to use there natural anatomy in their favor and if set properly allows the bowler to easily and naturally get the fingers around the side of the ball so that the arm can travel up the path of the ball(or even to the outside of the ball slightly and give the ball enough side turn to get back to the pocket).  This proper motion is analgous to the inside out swing in golf.  Those with the proper grip can return the clubface to square or slightly closed to the path of the clubhead swing and get the ball to draw(hook).  Those with the improper grip cannot swing on the inside path and get the ball to hook, they can only hook if they pull the ball.

So it is in bowling.  Those without this position properly set for their anatomy cannot properly get their arm to swing inside out and still hook the ball without all sorts of compensations.  (Why make it hard).

Thus the Coke bottle test to determine the proper lateral pitch!  Very good substitute for the fitting ball.

Many people however have trouble with the coke bottle test.  Recently one of our users on this site JJWEB was trying to fix pitch and span.  Honestly looking for help he sent pictures to our community asking for help.

I think I and some of the in the business drilling daily gurus have maybe helped him.  I also pointed out to him his incorrect steps in performing coke bottle test and hopefully helped him do it correctly.

He was nice enough to allow me to use his pictures to illustrate how not to do the coke bottle test and how to do it right!  This is not meant to insult him but only to possibly help others!  I thank him for his pictures!

Here we go.

1st attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

This won't do, this bottle way smaller than a 16 ounce or 20 ounce coke bottle does not even cause the user to grasp it with the thumb.  Object is just in palm of hand.  Falsely gives a result of 1/8 lateral out.

2nd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
This won't do either, this LARGE 24 ounce coke bottle does not allow grasping with the thumb also giving a false result of 1/8 lateral out!

3rd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAyMDYzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Ah hah finally a bottle that allows grasping a 16 ounce bottle!!!
The coke bottle at 16 ounces to 12 ounces is still thebest!
But now we see the real result.  Thumb TIP points at his RING finger!  
Well that is a big difference! That calls for 3/8 lateral right.

Quite a difference from our first result of 1/8 left lateral.

I've made some recommendations based on these pictures to Mr. JJWeb lets see how things shake out!

Thanks JJ.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS hope this helps somebody!
PPS again the final test is to go out to your center and see where your arm travels in relation to your ball path.  Here is a great test if you have the resources to do it!  
1. Drill up 3 to 4 balls exactly the same except for lateral thumb pitch.  Since I test at 1/4 lateral under palm(left for me) I bring balls set at 0, 1/8 lateral under palm, 1/4 lateral under palm and 3/8 lateral under palm.
2. Throw each one being careful to monitor where your arm travels inrelation to the ball path.  All of a sudden you will see it!  

The balls with too little lateral under palm for you will NOT hook back if you swing your arm to the outside of the ball path even the least little bit!  The balls with Too much lateral under palm pitch will always have to be thrown with your arm traveling well outside the proper ball path and will make it hard to stay behind the ball if you decide to do that.  Finally with just the proper lateral  under palm pitch your arm will be able to go straight up the ball path or just slightly outside the ball path and still return the ball back to the pocket.... ah perfection.  (note the answer does not HAVE to be lateral under palm, it more often is but it does not HAVE to be for your anatomy).

This exercise is so much easier to do with golf.  We just take a student and teach him how to swing the club thru the tee spot on an inside to out line.
If he slices we strengthen the grip until the ball starts to return back towards the target(the perfect small draw).  We don't have to bring four sets of grips etc.  

However the concept is the same!  Bon Appetit!

Im right handed, my thumb points about an inch outside of my index finger.  What should I be using?  I was at 0 and I was throwing the ball terrible.  I'm at 5/16ths now but I still feel I could go a little more.  3/8ths?  1/2?
--------------------
-DP3

Great post.
Makes bowlers think . . . (off the lanes).
--------------------
Duke Harding

LL, I'm not in agreement with yours or Bill Taylors illustration of the coke bottle test.

To me, every thumb will point to the ring finger if you bend it, if it's not already pointing there in the first place. If the thumb is flat on the coke bottle, then it will point more towards the ring finger. These are usually more of a hinged thumb.

Stiff thumbs, like jj's, don't lie flat on the bottle, as you cannot see his thumb nail lying flat, it's off to the side. Stiff thumbs will not usually pint towards the ring finger, unless you bend the knuckle.

If you rotate a stiff thumb (jj's hand) so that the thumb nail is flat on the bottle, his palm will come off the bottle and his fingers will be kicking way out to the right. If you were to use zero or 1/4 right pitch in a stiff thumb, without much bevel, you'll need roughly 1/2" right pitch in the middle and 1 1/4" right pitch in the ring finger to really feel comfortable.

But, like I stated earlier, you'll have a whole lot of axis tilt in your release using pitches like those. This is not desirable very often.

If you want your hand flat and have a stiff thumb, you will need some left pitch and a lot of bevel at about 1:30 and 4:30 positions of the thumbhole. With the bevel and some left pitch, you'll be able to roll the base of the thumb over the top edge of the thumbhole, enabling you to get your palm flatter on the ball.

You could do it with extreme pitches, left and reverse, but with your thumb pointed so far to the left, you'll really have to cock your wrist and rotate your hand around the ball much closer to a 90 degree rotation, to keep the outside left tip of your thumb from clipping the side of the hole. If you try to stay too straight behind the ball, you'll definitely clip the corner of your thumb.

I don't have anymore time to write now, so I'll stop here and we'll pick it up at a later time. =:^D

Edited on 10/14/2004 6:08 PM

LuckyLefty and T-GOD,

Thanks for this interesting and informative thread.

I have a very stiff thumb. If I hold the base of my right thumb with my left hand, I can only move my right thumb maybe 10 degrees. Only way I can bring my thumb in is using the joint at the wrist. After years and lots of balls and drillings later I'm settled to a short fingertip span and lots of right pitches to both fingers. Just as T-God said I have lots of axis tilt and a low track. It's OK for drier conditions but not so great on long oil. Tried 0 degrees axis rotation but track still stays low. At least now I know it's the finger pitches that causes this.

Looking forward to more discussions on this.






--------------------
baiki
"Faulty mechanics makes all balls bad."  Bill Hall, BTM Dec. '98

LL, yes, all my pitches and bevel tips were for righties. Basically my whole discussion was coming from the RIGHT, so to speak, point of view..!! =:^D

I wasn't going to get into this (did give jjweb some advice, via PM's), but here goes.  I don't think much of the Coke bottle test either.  It's too easy to let the customer's preconceived notion of where the thumb SHOULD go to influence the test.  I've also tried the "pick up the pencil with your finger tips" test and find the same.  When I fit someone, I take their hand and tell them to let it go limp.  Then I check for thumb flexibility, both away from the index finger and across the palm.  I push the thumb (all references for right handed bowlers) toward the right pitch direction as far as it will easily move.  Then I back toward in left pitch direction to the limit.  Then I go to the position roughly (takes experience with this method) 1/3 between the right and left pitch limits.  If the thumb points between the MF and RF, I start with 0 lateral.  For each half finger it points in either direction I use 1/8" pitch in that direction.  I also have the customer hold the hand in a bowling grip position, and then naturally close the hand into a fist.  Most of the time, the thumb falls at the same position as in my earlier test.  If not, I use my judgement to select a starting lateral pitch.  I set that pitch in the measuring ball with the appropriate (based on flexibility and span) reverse pitch and give the customer the old "which feels better" with the starting pitch and 1/8" right and left from the starting pitch.  If they prefer one of the 1/8" changes, I do another "which feels better" with an additional 1/8" in that direction.  I have never had a customer dissatisfied with the final thumb pitches using this method.  --  JohnP

After seeing his hand stretched on ball I think that everyone agrees with that.

The King of mill even pined that the incredible overstretch of ring was chiming in on the problem.  All gurus agreed a dramatic shortening was in order.

I've heard from the helpful JJ and he has made changes and loves feel but has not thrown.  Ball reviews anxiously awaits his progress.  "No pressure".

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS John P I agree with you you right on that the fitting ball is best!  Also I like the bowling position to rolling up in a ball test.  This seems to always confirm my coke bottle test.  I also love to have a customer grab their forarm from underneath
PPS I guess JJweb went to his ball driller and said I want to make changes, head of pro shop(not original driller) says "Right lateral for you?", "No Way".

"I do my own tests", tosses him quick an Umbrella and watches how he catches it!  "Ooops I guess you do need lateral right he says!

Anyway the jist of the afternoon of the top dog driller was pretty much a shorter span, lateral right in thumb and some moderate reverse due to a fairly stiff thumb.  
Amount of reverse right close to BT span pitch tables.
Ball reviews waits!