BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: LuckyLefty on March 27, 2019, 12:18:31 PM
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So I am starting to really get interested in lateral side pitches as I have shortened my span from extremely stretched to full finger relaxed. With some difficulty for awhile but , as I am making these changes I am starting to develop some stronger opinions on this maybe important subject.
So, I have one of the copies of Fitting and Drilling a Bowling ball by the authority of the day Bill Taylor. In there he states that Fingergrip fitted bowling balls end up with a solution for lateral pitches of the fingers with 0 lateral for the middle finger, and 5/8(ring) to the right for righties and 5/8 (ring) to the left for lefties. For virtually all fingers.
He then goes on to say that "Remember,lateral pitches in fingers are for comfort not utility". This is a statement I am not sure with today's strong balls and lower volume high viscosity oil patterns is true.
Anyway, some of well experienced drillers. Could you elaborate on those times when most of the bowlers went from pure fingertip no inserts(at 0, 5/8 pitch) to inserts and 3/8 3/8?
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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3/8, 3/8 keeps average depth finger holes from meeting at the bottom and weakening the bridge area.
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Always keep that 3/8 and 3/8 as your standard pitches in mind when you adjust them for comfort. Im actually 1/2 and 1/4 on my fingers lateral.
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So if we can, let's continue this. Bill Taylor's 0 middle and 5/8 lateral also will keep many depth holes from intersecting?
How did we morph to 3/8 3/8 once inserts came into the mix? Long time drillers, remember the thinking that led to this transition? Any effect on ball roll in your opinion?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS guys thanks for your feedback above. Bowl Freak are your pitches 1/2 ring right(righty bowler) and 1/4 left middle(righty bowler)? Thank you.
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The 0 and 5/8 can certainly weaken the bottom of the bridge ever so slightly, but if a bowler has certain flexibility issues we can adjust the 3/4" standard and let them know of the possible issue of bridge weakening, and then let them decide if they want to drill it that way or not. Fit is everything though. I use 5/8 ring and 1/8 middle finger because that is comfortable for my own flexibility, but we normally go by the 3/4" "rule" and haven't had bridge cracking issues coming back to our shop at all, and haven't had anyone complain about any pain issues.
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So James, thanks for your answer!
I note your 1/8 middle finger lateral pitch vs 3/8 do you feel that is significant? Or effects ball roll? I note your 3/4 total pitch spread and I agree that is ideal for strong bridges. I often solve that problem for myself with only a 9/16 total spread in pitches by drilling 31/32 to about 1 inch and the switching to a 57/64 drill bit go to the rest of the depth.
I appreciate your input and would love to hear more from your perspective!
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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LuckyLefty,
I'm glad you are able to modify the bits to keep the bridge intact, that is a good idea. I find that the 1/8 middle is more for my personal flexibility and comfort, but I was able to increase my tilt slightly when measuring it before and after the change (went from about 12-14 to 15-17 on average). so not a big difference there overall, but it is worth noting.
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Maine Man,
Your previous middle finger pitch was? Before ending up at 1/8? If I remember correctly you are a lefty?
If you changed your laterals did you also adjust your lateral thumb pitch?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS I am finding this subject very fascinating!
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LuckyLefty,
Yes, you are correct, I am left handed. I had a standard 3/8" lateral pitch for each finger before modifying. I went through a bunch of grip changes after wrist surgery a few years ago. I went from thumb pitch being 3/8" left lateral and 1/4" reverse, to my current pitch of 1/4" left lateral and zero (0) front/back pitch. I also shortened my ring finger 1/8" and lengthened my middle finger 1/16" to get the middle finger to do more work. I also have no forward/reverse pitch in my fingers, they are (0) and I use Ultimate oval finger inserts and Ultimate urethane thumb slugs. I love the feel of the Ultimate stuff, I switched to them about a year ago and it has been very good.
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Maine Man,
I have found my adjustment from 3/8 3/8 to first 1/4 3/8 and then now 1/8 7/16+ to all of a sudden force me to start to approach my 1/4" left coke bottle result.
This is having some fascinating effects on my ball roll, that I can see but have not measured!
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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So if we can, let's continue this. Bill Taylor's 0 middle and 5/8 lateral also will keep many depth holes from intersecting?
How did we morph to 3/8 3/8 once inserts came into the mix? Long time drillers, remember the thinking that led to this transition? Any effect on ball roll in your opinion?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS guys thanks for your feedback above. Bowl Freak are your pitches 1/2 ring right(righty bowler) and 1/4 left middle(righty bowler)? Thank you.
So if we can, let's continue this. Bill Taylor's 0 middle and 5/8 lateral also will keep many depth holes from intersecting?
How did we morph to 3/8 3/8 once inserts came into the mix? Long time drillers, remember the thinking that led to this transition? Any effect on ball roll in your opinion?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS guys thanks for your feedback above. Bowl Freak are your pitches 1/2 ring right(righty bowler) and 1/4 left middle(righty bowler)? Thank you.
Lucky, My middle finger is 1/2 left and ring is 1/4 rt. Plus i have some rev in them to accomadate my lack of flexibilty in my joints.
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3/8" L and 3/8" R puts each hole at the same angle, but in opposite directions and satisfies the 3/4" total. That makes it easier to glue the inserts in and get a smooth fit at the top of the holes. If, for example, you use 1/8" L and 5/8" R one side of each grip will have to be pushed down quite a bit to get a smooth fit. Of course, the proper pitches for the customer comes before ease of grip installation. -- JohnP
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Thanks Bowl Freak I assume you are right handed?
Now John P. Is that how it really came about, I think that is sort of what I had heard too!
Just to expand on what you said. For the 1/8(second easiest) or 0 middle finger hole(easiest), pushing down one side of the grip does not exist at all for 0, and barely exists for the 1/8, I think you will agree!
Now on the 5/8(hardest), yes one side will stick up the most and pushing down is harder, I believe we could agree on also, right? Of course a solution for that is triming one side of the bottom of the insert at an approximately 1/8" angle if it is bottoming and leading to compression of the rubber.
Just to digress to Bill Taylor's comments. 0 lateral pitch middle and 5/8 lateral pitch works for virtually all fingers.
Fascinating, and yet with inserts we now vary FAR from that! One would think that it would be because they with inserts now fit differently. Instead it seems to be just like you say, to assist the driller in insert application and longevity of the grip solution.
Hmmmmmm...which leads to a question. How does it affect hand position, and how does it affect ball roll. To some this may be the more important consideration, right?
Something to marinade on, I think!
I would love to hear from other old time drill gurus like Bull Red about this transition from "Bill Taylor" fitting for form pitches, and "Insert" pitches or fitting for Insert cosmetic and installation ease.
I apprecate your answers and hope to hear more! YOUR thoughts?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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Yes im righthanded. I feel like with my pitches, they allow my hand to sit comfortably on the ball which goes against the rule of thumb in most cases. I also have a real short, almost super-semi grip in my ball now. 4"ctc on my equipment. I bury my fingers in almost feels like a conventional but just a little longer than a conventional. So far since ive changed 2 weeks ago, I have had 4 gms 270+ and front 8 3 times. I'm a feel bowler and need the feel to bowl well.
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Awesome bowling! I have heard the trend is towards conventional, Ala Jason Belmonte almost looking so, and Jakob Butturff.
I have also heard of the flat hand idea with pitches in the opposite direction from the Bill Taylor prescription.
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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3/8" L and 3/8" R puts each hole at the same angle, but in opposite directions and satisfies the 3/4" total. That makes it easier to glue the inserts in and get a smooth fit at the top of the holes. If, for example, you use 1/8" L and 5/8" R one side of each grip will have to be pushed down quite a bit to get a smooth fit. Of course, the proper pitches for the customer comes before ease of grip installation. -- JohnP
I use 0 and 3/4 right and getting the insert flush with the surface of the ball on the 3/4 right can be tricky some times.
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[I know I was taught the 3/8, 3/8 spread back in 82 or 83, so it's been around for awhile./color]
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If the insert is bottoming out and having to compress the side of the insert. Try my angle trimming method on the bottom. For any amount of stick up, I just draw a line with my pen on the side of the insert. View it, and cut a similar angle and depth off that side of the bottom adjusting for the width of the ball point or marker line!
I am not convinced we all have improved our situation by going to 3/8 3/8 for the reasons of insert installibility or longevity. Bill Taylor who I met a year or so b4 his death seemed to be a pretty sharp fella!
A real sharp eye between ball and hand fit and body position at release and pins left.
He claimed he made many piles of money calling pins left at release! Wrote a booklet about it! Something to think about in this discussion, maybe.
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS do we have a lot of old time drillers out here who remember the 0, 5/8 pitch days and the transition to inserts and the pitch changes that came besides JohnP?
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in the old days, the grips were a shorter so there wasn't a need to worry about them intersecting unless the customer had an extreme amount of lateral due to an injury or crooked finger tips. Now the grips go, I believe, like a full inch deeper.
I was taught the recommendation of 7/8" difference in lateral, as we started to get layouts like the Double Thumb and MOTion Hole layouts which needed deeper than normal depth. 3/8 Lateral in the middle and 1/2" in the ring were the standard and my personal laterals and were to be adjusted for customer comfort. Anything inside of 3/4", I inform the customer that they are voiding the warranty of the ball.
Gluing the grips in isn't really a problem unless the have extreme F/R pitches like 3/8" or more, mine being 5/8" rev, that would cause the grip to stick up. Even then, a little deeper in the fingers and gluing from bridge out cures that issue. if any cutting is required, I normally do it at the top and wipe edges with Acetone while wearing gloves. Works like a charm
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Now John P. Is that how it really came about, I think that is sort of what I had heard too!
That's what I was taught and the driller that taught me had been drilling since the 60"s. Another popular (to some drillers) set of pitches results from simply shifting the ball side to side without rotating it while drilling the finger holes. This is called "parallel zero" and when using grips actually works out to about 5/8" each direction. -- JohnP
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Thanks guys for the comments.
Rightycomplex my friend, I don't know if you saw my comments on keeping the bridge strong on holes drilled with less than 3/4 spread(always a situation for me).
I usually cut the inserts in half if they have usable lips on both ends like vise and turbo and save the other side to give to friends if they use that style(I am not in the business of drilling).
Then I drill the 31/32 hole so that the insert bottoms out and cant's sink, if at an angle greater than 3/8 in that case I often trim the bottom with a slight angle on the side that sticks up so no rubber compression is needed on that side that sticks up. I then switch drill bits to 57/64 and drill in the same exact center the rest of the hole to set up desired finger or side weight. Yes one of those guys, also depending on where I may want a weighthole(for the next year and a few months).
JohnP, I certainly have heard of that method of Parallel zero which was just setting the drill bit to 0 while lined up with the middle of the bridge and then rotating the table right for the left finger hole and then back to the left for the right finger hole.
Bill Taylor railed against this casual drilling "mistake" in his book (that from Amazon looks like it was written in 1984) he claimed had been made for over 50 years! Just a pooint of fact on the amount of lateral introduced but this method really depends on the size of the hole/2 + size of bridge/2. So for a 31/32 insert size hole and a 1/4 inch width bridge the pitches will end up being just under 5/8 (a very wide spread of 1 1/4 as layed out by JohnP and then much less pitch if one drills actual finger holes. But again approximately equal pitches away from the center line.
Again, Bill Taylor recommended 0 and 5/8 for virtually all hands for fingertips claiming most bowlersj(righties) got wear on the left side of middle finger if they used his recommended conventional grip laterals of 1/8 middle 5/8 ring. Note how much these lateral pitches differ from the standard 3/8 3/8 with inserts that is now most commonly and causally used.
A little bit of experimentaion so far undertaken. As a leftyI have tried 1/8 right middle finger and 7/16+ left ring finger. and I am noting a change in ball roll, strain in any spans that is too long from the Bill Taylor recommended relaxed spans, and also a note that I must come very close to my coke bottle test 1/4 inch left lateral (under palm for this lefty) to avoid clipping the side of my thumb.
More to come!
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
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Let me add another bit of confusion to the mix. When using grips the hole size is 31/32". Let's say a grip size is 23/32" and 3/8" lateral (in either direction) is used and the bridge is 1/4". The side of each grip adds 1/8" to the bridge, making the actual bridge the fingers see 1/2" and the pitch of the hole the fingers are in 1/2" (ignoring that unwieldy 1/64" LL likes). -- JohnP
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Negative. The only way you would change lateral pitch with a finger insert is if the opposing sides of the insert have different wall thicknesses, changing where the center of the hole would be.
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After thinking it over more, you're right. The pitch is based on the center of the hole, not the distance from the grip centerline. -- JohnP
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To really clarify the "Casual method" I made I wanted to be precisely accurate in what I said regarding pitches being less for straight finger holes than inserts put in a 31/32 hole.
So as we discussed the pitches for any insert done with the casual method for a 31/32 size insert with a 1/4 bridge end up just under 5/8. The 1/4 inch bridge where the center of the drill bit is moved 1/8 of an inch or 8/64. Plus the 31/64 move of the drill bit for a total move of 39/64. Just short of 5/8 lateral pitch for both inserts where the drill bit moves from the center of the bridge to the center of the hole.
Now moving to say two 3/4 inch direct drill non grip insert holes. The math here is even easier. 1/8 of an inch to move the bit from the center of the bridge to edge of the bridge. Then another 3/8 drill bit travel to get to the center of the 3/4 inch hole leads to a total one direction pitch of 1/2. Each smaller(less side pitch) or larger drill bit hole(more side pitch) ends up with less or more side pitch. Not what these drillers probably really intended.
And yet. Bill Taylor recommends 0 lateral middle and 5/8 lateral out ring as fitting all fingers.
I still believe something to think about. WHY? If you review Bill's book you realize he did nothing casually in his approach to bowling. Old info, but I am interested in the science or anatomy knowledge that has led us to 3/8 3/8?
Sincerely,
Luckylefty
PS John P. You are right the smaller the finger Inserts grip size the wider the total bridge, maybe not the best for a young child's or smaller handed woman's hands.