Post by: chitown on November 21, 2005, 09:16:48 AM
The moral of this story is that sometimes it's best to just leave things alone instead of always searching for something better.
Post by: Steven on November 21, 2005, 05:30:32 PM
We're not all anatomically constructed for forward pitch. However, experimenting is something everyone should try to find out what's really optimal.
Just a thought: There is a big gap between 1/4 reverse and 1/8 forward. Have you considered trying 1/8 reverse just to get a hair more hang than you had previously?
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"Yeah...what Jabroini said"
Post by: Sawuser on November 21, 2005, 05:40:49 PM
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Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: a_ak57 on November 21, 2005, 05:48:43 PM
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- Andy
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 21, 2005, 06:02:25 PM
I had a girl who came to me and wanted a new ball. I hooked her up with a new ball but told her I did not like her old span and pitches. She and her dad agreed to let me refit her since she regularly needed skinpatch and such to repair her hand due to rubbing etc. Her old span was 4-1/2 cut to cut with 5/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral.
I changed her span to a more comfortable 4-1/8 with 1/8 forward and 1/8 right. She now has no rubbing and is throwing the best ball of her life.
What she had was "OK" but what I gave her was better.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Join the FOS by throwing the newest Wave of Destruction from Lane#1...
Get your hands on a Tsunami today!
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 21, 2005, 06:05:29 PM
Let me pause and enjoy the moment.
On the side of the forward crew. A move to dramatic forward often causes the need for an increase in frong bevel. If anyone ever goes to way froward from where they are and gets pain and black marks under the front of thumb....stop...don't bowl anymore you are causing nerve damage which can be permanent.
Now add front bevel to front of thumb hole(under flat part of thumb) (no need to increase side bevel probably). For AMOUNT of forward bevel do ring finger test.
I have had guys bound and determined to have move front bevel and by increasing this front bevel we ended pain and they were able to do experiment safely.
I don't like it for everyone but this at least can give the test a fair try!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I can see when someone if the timing is what I want to see in the interaction between thumb release and finger but over the web....hard.
REcently we added reverse to a guy and stretched span 1/8....new bowler! He can't believe it!
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: Sawuser on November 21, 2005, 06:25:41 PM
Quote:
On the side of the forward crew. A move to dramatic forward often causes the need for an increase in frong bevel. If anyone ever goes to way froward from where they are and gets pain and black marks under the front of thumb....stop...don't bowl anymore you are causing nerve damage which can be permanent.
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Oh, yes, I also have the CLT with 5/8 reverse in both fingers.
Oh, yes, I've been bowling for 45 years, have 4 700's in the last 3 weeks & averaging 220 in two leagues. Not bragging, just HAPPY with my new drillings!
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Edited on 11/21/2005 7:17 PM
Edited on 11/21/2005 7:21 PM
Post by: Sawuser on November 21, 2005, 06:41:40 PM
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Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Strider on November 21, 2005, 09:27:48 PM
quote:
I tried that forward pitch and short span junk after about 10 years of no problems what so every with my hand and thumb. It might be ok for the bowler who hasn't been around for a long time...but for established players who are used to a span and a pitch over the years, it doesn't useally work.
I agree with your results, but not your reasoning. As you said, you keep what works for you. Kudos for experimenting. Obviously your old span and pitches were best for you. But I am an established player (been bowling for 30 years, more than 10 competitively) who used the same span and pitches for years. After a little coaching, I went from 5/16 reverse to 3/8 forward (all at once) to 9/16 forward (a few weeks later). My span is almost 1/2" shorter than before.
Neither reverse or forward is the magic cure for anything. You just have to keep trying things until you find out what works. If I didn't already drill a bunch of stuff with 9/16, I'd probably try further. I can still feel myself squeezing the ball sometimes. Once I had the first drilled 9/16, I kept dropping the ball with "only" 3/8. I'm certainly no guru, and not an advocate for moving everyone forward, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of bowlers are squeezing the ball more than they think because of their thumb pitch.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: chitown on November 21, 2005, 09:38:48 PM
quote:
How about 1/2 reverse + 1/2" palm(or right lateral) for a RH plus a CLT pitch on the fingers. Don't knock it til you try it.
I also use a CLT pitch. It makes the thumb look off set. It feels great BUT FEELS BETTER WITH 1/4 REVERSE AND 3/16 LATERAL TO THE PALM FOR THE THUMB. LOL
Post by: chitown on November 21, 2005, 09:41:42 PM
quote:
I tried that forward pitch and short span junk after about 10 years of no problems what so every with my hand and thumb. It might be ok for the bowler who hasn't been around for a long time...but for established players who are used to a span and a pitch over the years, it doesn't useally work.
what would be my normal fingertip span is 4 9/16th x 4 8/16th with 1/8 reverse thumb
The short what was measured at around by two drillers one being Mo at 4 x 3 15/16 and another guy around 4 1/4 with 1/8 Forward
What I've used for the last 10 years and went back two last week...
4 3/4 x 4 5/8 with 1/4 to 3/8 reverse and 1/4 right side....
I went back to what I used as a kid, and I've had 3 700s in 2 weeks....after not having anything at all for the first 13 weeks this year useing these NEW and IMPROVED drilling ideas.
Sometimes it's better to keep the dog useing his old tricks..instead of the new ones..
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Bowling Sucks....
Edited on 11/21/2005 7:11 PM
I totally agree. I'm not saying I won't try new things but I will not change my span and pitches anytime soon. After my balls get fixed it will be back to making money.
Post by: Brickguy221 on November 21, 2005, 09:48:18 PM
quote:
Chi -- At least you gave it a try. I went through the same circle of misery you just described, and like you, went back to my previous reverse pitch.
I agree with Steven here. I too also went thru the circle of misery and went back to my previous reverse.
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Brick
Post by: chitown on November 21, 2005, 10:39:54 PM
I'm finding out that the more I read the posts on this site that it kind of gets me thinking too much about my game. I need to learn that what I have is fine and just go with it.
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 21, 2005, 11:25:30 PM
IN reading my post you must realize many of the guys I observed getting black marks and coming to me. (I am not a professional driller). Were guys who left the spans the same and went and made dramatic moves forward.
These black marks and jolting electric shocks were serious issues.
Fixed in a few swipes of the bevel knife.
The other situation(yours I think) is that one decides on a certain forward pitch and shortens the span to accomodate it.
Forward pitch added for it's own sake does have the tendancy to cut down how far the hand can stretch out over finger holes.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS any more....I just like to watch and see a couple of things. Relationship between thumb and finger timing. Thumb out early enough...ball staying on fingers long enough
PPS second item...where is arm path in relation to initial ball path. Not enough palm under lateral...arm frequently inside initial ball path. Too much under palm lateral....arm swing dramatically to the gutter side of the initial ball path....usually!
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: chitown on November 22, 2005, 10:02:36 AM
When I bowled on Sunday half way thru league I pulled out my new redrilled ball with the reverse and bingo; back to normal. I'm surprised I waited this long to change back to normalcy.
Post by: scotts33 on November 22, 2005, 10:17:51 AM
Parker Bohn - 5/16 reverse with a 4 5/8 x 4 3/4 span <---relatively straight player comes around side of ball.
Brad Angelo - 3/8 reverse with a 4 1/x8 x 4 1/4 span (That's so unguru like)<---likes to circle it more comes around side of ball.
Mika K - 0 reverse with a 4 1/8 x 4 3/32 span<---pretty straight player likes to use loft and end over end roll more.
Mike Fagan - 0 reverse with a 4 3/4 x 3 3/8 (Sarge Easter)<---haven't seen mike bowl much but I seem to remember him jamming the ball into the lane more end over end but opens up the lane when he can.
See any correlation? From my experience which is not vast as drillers go but not cursory either. I see players that like to exert more side roll and more axis tilt like 0 to reverse. Players that like more forward roll like very little reverse to forward.
I maybe all wet but it just made me think about it a bit.
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Scott
Post by: Sawuser on November 22, 2005, 10:38:21 AM
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Wow! As lanky as Mika is, his span is that short?
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Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Brickguy221 on November 22, 2005, 10:42:36 AM
quote:
Wow! As lanky as Mika is, his span is that short?
Does he have a lot of forward pitch in the fingers?
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Brick
Post by: TheDude on November 28, 2005, 01:39:12 PM
quote:
Mika K - 0 reverse with a 4 1/8 x 4 3/32 span<---pretty straight player likes to use loft and end over end roll more.
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Wow! As lanky as Mika is, his span is that short?
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Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
I am the same size as Mika. hands very similar, games as well, now less loft and more letting the ball onto the lane sooner. I use 3/16 forward as well, but i will admitt is not for everyone. those with very free relaxed arm swings can use it, but i look most importantly at the bottom of the swing. if you are going past your ankle very quickly you need to exit your thumb fairly fast, and if you have the ball sitting lane level longer i would say less reverse.
With zero i loose the ball behind my ankle most times. i work here at buffa bowling and most of the staff can agree with trying it out.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
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Timothy @Juniors Pro-Shop
Staff Writer 7-10 Split Magazine,EGO Communications
Montreal, Quebec.
Post by: novawagonmaster on November 28, 2005, 06:24:27 PM
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Jon (in Ohio)
CHROME WON'T GET YOU HOME!
F.O.S. Proud Saw user...see profile.
Post by: chitown on November 29, 2005, 01:02:19 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 29, 2005, 09:10:09 PM
Drilling and fitting a bowling ball is more of an art form than a science. Sure there are some guidelines but none are set in stone. There is an optimum release angle for you to achieve a clean release. I believe it to be something like 63 degrees. As long as you maintain this angle the release will still be clean. If you change your forward/reverse pitch, there must also be a span change in order to maintain this angle. If you do not change the span when you change pitch, you will either hang in the ball or lose the ball.
Bill Taylor has written a several part article on this very subject in BTM for those of you wanting to invest more thought.
You are right....forward reverse for some is a fad or perhaps even worthless but with the proper tweaks to your span, it can be a wonderful thing....
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Join the FOS by throwing the newest Wave of Destruction from Lane#1...
Get your hands on a Tsunami today!
Post by: Sawuser on November 29, 2005, 11:10:53 PM
--------------------
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Bomb Squad & Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Brickguy221 on November 30, 2005, 03:38:49 PM
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Brick
Post by: chitown on November 30, 2005, 03:58:31 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 30, 2005, 10:37:57 PM
The exceptions to the rule are bowlers with any of the following issues:
1. excessively long thumbs
2. overly sweaty or sticky thumbs
3. thumbs lacking flexibility
If you have any of the above issues then you might very well not be able to use forward pitch.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Join the FOS by throwing the newest Wave of Destruction from Lane#1...
Get your hands on a Tsunami today!
Post by: Brickguy221 on December 01, 2005, 12:36:04 AM
quote:
1. excessively long thumbs
2. overly sweaty or sticky thumbs
3. thumbs lacking flexibility
Doug, believe it or not, I am a bit of all 3. My thumb is long, but not excessively long. Some days I have a problem with a sticky thumb and have to use some powdered soap stone that I made. Works better, lasts longer and is more consistant than Easy Slide. And last, I lack flexability of my thumb. For whatever reason, since I retired and quit working 4 1/2 years ago, my thumb is not quite as stiff as it once was, but it still remains somewhat stiff.
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Brick
Post by: a_ak57 on December 01, 2005, 06:37:01 PM
quote:
It's true. CGNOMADDAH. If you honestly think about how a bowling ball is laid out, all you are doing it positioning the mass bias (be it real, or just a line from the pin thru the cg at 6 3/4 inches) in a different position.
But keep believing that.
Jeremy
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\m/
Viva La Metal Militia!
Long live the new flesh!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
WHY, Jeremy, WHYYYYYYYY??
Here we go....
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- Andy