Author Topic: thumb pitch and layout suggestions (Read 12904 times)

skidhookgutter · « **on:** April 13, 2010, 04:02:14 PM »

I read not to long ago on this board of a drilling of the thumb but turning the ball in the jig before drilling the hole. I cant seem to find the posts. My fingers and wrists are not very limber and Im really wondering what I can do to feel more comfortable cocking my wrist. The league I joined for fun, everyone bowls with the same brand and model ball. I'm classic stroker but working hard to re-program my hand/wrist to gain some revs. I have a pap of 5 over and up 1/2. The last two balls I had were drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8. Obviously inside and swing is not my A game! At the same time Ive had skid flip and that seems to be pretty speed and condition specific. I would like to have the ball store some energy but have a strong continuous arc to the pocket. Looking for drilling suggestions. THS, stroker with about 16mph, They tell me they chose the Brunswick copperhead. Thanks in advance and sorry for L O N G post.

JohnP · « **Reply #31 on:** April 16, 2010, 10:58:14 PM »

OK, I think we're all in agreement now. I'm still planning to try the 45* rotation method with my pitches, which are 7/16 reverse and 1/8 left (right handed, stiff thumb and finger joints). My gut feeling is that the rotation method will improve the fit only if the fit was not correct for the bowler's hand. Does that make sense? -- JohnP

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #32 on:** April 16, 2010, 11:06:15 PM »

To answer your query JP.........yup :-)
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Brickguy221 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 17, 2010, 12:37:08 AM »

quote:
My gut feeling is that the rotation method will improve the fit only if the fit was not correct for the bowler''s hand. Does that make sense? -- JohnP

John, what it did for me and everyone else that uses this 45* drilling, is direct the pitches with the direction of the back of my thumb. See leftys explaination of the hand held up and in front of you and the direction the back of thumb points to, and etc. On your trying this 45* rotation with your 7/16 Reverse and 1/8 lateral, you might want to consider also trying it with the 1/8 lateral. My original main thumb pitch on the T-Grip was 1/4 reverse and 1/8 out lateral. On the 45* drilling I found the 1/8 out lateral to be too much and cut to 0 lateral. Later took 1/16 off the reverse and is where I am today on my main balls. The main thing is to get the pitch running in the direction as the back of your thumb runs.

I have always had a lot of reverse thumb pitch and various out lateral pitches. Out of numerous drillers over the years, all drilled close to the same pitches whenever I asked for a re-fit. No way could I ever begin to get out of a ball with 0 reverse pitch and little if any lateral on a T-Grip drilling. No one ever recommended it because of my thumb being somewhat on the stiff side. I didn''t even know until tonight that if measured on a T-Grip reference point that one of my balls had a 0 reverse pitch. That is the one I mentioned above that had 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on the 45* method and it measured 0 reverse and 3/16 out lateral on a T-Grip type method.

Let me mention here that this same ball was originally 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on a T-Grip drilling and I didn''t fare well with it. Hung up a lot with it. When I began experimenting with the 45* method, it was the second ball I tried. Kept same pitches and just simply rotated ball 45 degrees, and volia, I could get out of the ball really clean with not even a hint of a hang up.

quote:
I just sat down and drew out some stuff on paper and what I have found is that this concept would produce some VERY extreme pitches in my ball.

Doug, remember, with the ball being round and a paper being flat, when drawing something out on paper it is going to be different on a round ball vs a flat piece of paper, trust me here.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 4/17/2010 0:44 AM

JohnP · « **Reply #34 on:** April 17, 2010, 10:33:47 AM »

quote:
John, what it did for me and everyone else that uses this 45* drilling, is direct the pitches with the direction of the back of my thumb. See leftys explaination of the hand held up and in front of you and the direction the back of thumb points to, and etc.

Yes, I think I understand the concept and what it's trying to do. Here's a little history behind my grip and thumb pitches. I spent 40 years with thumb release problems. I tried reverse pitches from 1/4 to 1 reverse, but always with 1/4 right lateral. That's what the drillers I used said I needed and I never felt that lateral pitch would really affect the release much, so I never specified otherwise. The best release I got was 3/4 reverse and the 1/4 right, but I still hung in the ball occasionally. My fingers were always drilled at 1/4 forward, again that's what the drillers used and I didn't think that affected my thumb release. Then I began to drill balls and went to a 3 day school at Classic Products in Ft. Wayne. Mike Riggins was the instructor. As a part of the class he fit those that so desired, and I desired. When he checked my finger joint flexibility (in all the times I had been fitted before no one had checked that), he found both 1st joints to be quite stiff. He recommended slightly shorter spans with 5/16 reverse and 1/4 left lateral on the thumb hole, with a slightly larger thumb hole than I had been using. For the fingers he recommended MF - 3/8 reverse and RF - 5/8 reverse. I came home and drilled a ball with these pitches and WOW, what a difference. The reverse in the fingers relaxed my hand so the thumb could release as it should. I still wasn't completely satisfied, as I liked the feel of the tighter thumb better. After a little experimentation I reduced the hole size and added a little more reverse, to 7/16, and reduced the left lateral to 1/8 (I was reading everything I could get my hands on about fitting and learning every day). Then after a while longer I started using Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet. Now I never hang in the ball and it comes off my thumb when it's supposed to. And of all the changes, I think the reverse finger pitch was the key.

I've said all of this to make this point. I suspect my grip is optimum for my hand. I don't see how the 45* rotation could improve it but I'm willing to give it a try. Now, back when I was at 3/4 reverse and 1/4 right, rotating the ball 45* may very well have resulted in close to what I'm using now. So maybe the key is finding a driller that can read your hand and put you in the correct grip, with or without rotating the ball. -- JohnP

bowler001 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 17, 2010, 12:21:35 PM »

quote:

If that is what you came up with, then the case is closed and we are all now in agreement. I too checked it out this evening. I remembered that I had an old ball in the closet with 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. I dug it out of the closet, took it to the pro shop and it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45* angle.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Finally! I was starting to think you were just messing with me. So, yes we are on the same page now. It was fun either way.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 17, 2010, 12:42:16 PM »

quote:
Yes, I think I understand the concept and what it's trying to do. Here's a little history behind my grip and thumb pitches. I spent 40 years with thumb release problems. I tried reverse pitches from 1/4 to 1 reverse, but always with 1/4 right lateral. That's what the drillers I used said I needed and I never felt that lateral pitch would really affect the release much, so I never specified otherwise. The best release I got was 3/4 reverse and the 1/4 right, but I still hung in the ball occasionally. My fingers were always drilled at 1/4 forward, again that's what the drillers used and I didn't think that affected my thumb release. Then I began to drill balls and went to a 3 day school at Classic Products in Ft. Wayne. Mike Riggins was the instructor. As a part of the class he fit those that so desired, and I desired. When he checked my finger joint flexibility (in all the times I had been fitted before no one had checked that), he found both 1st joints to be quite stiff. He recommended slightly shorter spans with 5/16 reverse and 1/4 left lateral on the thumb hole, with a slightly larger thumb hole than I had been using. For the fingers he recommended MF - 3/8 reverse and RF - 5/8 reverse. I came home and drilled a ball with these pitches and WOW, what a difference. The reverse in the fingers relaxed my hand so the thumb could release as it should. I still wasn't completely satisfied, as I liked the feel of the tighter thumb better. After a little experimentation I reduced the hole size and added a little more reverse, to 7/16, and reduced the left lateral to 1/8 (I was reading everything I could get my hands on about fitting and learning every day). Then after a while longer I started using Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet. Now I never hang in the ball and it comes off my thumb when it's supposed to. And of all the changes, I think the reverse finger pitch was the key.

John, I totally understand your struggle with your thumb for 40 years as I had a thumb struggle experience all my life also until October of last year when I began trying this 45* thing and it was an overnight success for me. If it does nothing for you, then your fit is right to begin with. Let me know what your 45* pitch is on your 7/16 reverse and 1/8 left lateral off the T-Grip drilling. With my nos. and your nos, and nos from others, I think a person could almost build a chart with this information???
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #37 on:** April 17, 2010, 02:37:06 PM »

Well Brick I just had my fit redone by Mo Pinel about 4 months ago. I wonder if I should even bother experimenting. I mean Mo is pretty well the master...

As a side note in keeping with the same theme here, how many of you slightly rotate your finger inserts to better match up with the pads on your fingers?

I have been doing this for years. I put my thumb in the ball then lay my hand across the drilled grip holes. I'll then rotate the inserts in the holes until the gripping edge matches up perfectly with the pad on my finger.

I have found this to be a great help in getting a better roll on the ball....
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 17, 2010, 03:00:29 PM »

quote:
Well Brick I just had my fit redone by Mo Pinel about 4 months ago. I wonder if I should even bother experimenting. I mean Mo is pretty well the master...

Well Doug, no one was suggesting that you change. This was only intended for people that have thumb problems such as myself and others. In your case, if you are happy with what you have, then I suggest you keep what you have....if it ain''t broke, don''t fix it....In my case and others that have inquired about this 45* thing, it was broke and needed fixing.

quote:
As a side note in keeping with the same theme here, how many of you slightly rotate your finger inserts to better match up with the pads on your fingers?

I have been doing this for years. I put my thumb in the ball then lay my hand across the drilled grip holes. I''ll then rotate the inserts in the holes until the gripping edge matches up perfectly with the pad on my finger.

I have found this to be a great help in getting a better roll on the ball....

I did that at times before switiching to the 45* drilling, but quit after I switched as I no longer found a benefit in turning the grips. Note, if using the flat side (power lift side) of grips, they don''t quite line up to match the pitch in the finger holes. Some people notice this difference while others don''t. More noticeable with the power lift side of the grips than the oval side of the grips.

--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 4/17/2010 3:10 PM

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #39 on:** April 17, 2010, 09:41:19 PM »

well my friend I have been having trouble recently with keeping the thumb release clean while my thumb swells. I started using the GripLoc and I can swap out thumb sizes without going through a pack of tape every 3-4 days. Well this is fine and dandy since I got the ovals from them but I am still having trouble with the ball hanging from time to time.

Mo made some pretty significant changes in my pitches and my new fit is light years ahead of where it was. He said my hand is one of the "special cases" that doesn't follow the normal fitting rules.

I wonder if trying this would help just that extra little bit with that occasional hang up with my thumb?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

skidhookgutter · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:12:44 PM »

Thought I replied earlier but I guess not?? Anyway thanks for all the replies. I didnt realize This topic would create so much activity! Because Im not very limber, Im willing to try anything to let me feel more comfortable cocking my wrist a little more. My span is small, 4 1/4 cut to cut. I have struggled ever since my center finally got rid of the wood lanes. With my stroker style I seem to fair well with the pin above my ring and the cg kicked right a little. I havent had a symmetrical ball in quite a while. If I drill the ball with pin up and Im looking for a strong arcing charge to the pocket, shouldnt the cg be in my palm as apposed to kicked right. Cg kicking left or right, same power just changing the shape of the arc from skid flip (hockey stick) to even arcing (banana)

?? Thanks again for all the replies. Im anxious to try a 45* thumb drilling.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 06, 2010, 11:01:32 PM »

I previously had posts here about drilling the thumb pitches here at 45* of which has been really successful for me. After some debate here, Bowler 001 and John P convinced me this 45* could be drilled off the T-Grip if a person knew what their pitches were. In other words, a person has to first drill the thumb on a 45* angle to find what fits/works best. It might take more than one try to get the best fit. I changed my 45* pitches three different times before stabalizing on the best fit.

Once this was done, after discussionns with Bowler 001 and John P, I neasured the thumb on the T-Grip method. Summary of this is that I finalized my 45* drilling at 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.... Then when I measured this same thumb hole using the standard T-Grip measuring method, it measured 1/8 reverse and 1/8 our lateral and when measuring it at 45* it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.

Today I plugged an AMF Heist to change the span and finger pitches. I also reslugged the thumb and redrilled it. This time rather than drill the thumb hole at 45* as I have been doing, I drilled it at 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral. After drilling it, I measured it at 45* and it was a perfect 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral as it was supposed to be.

To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.

--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

JohnP · « **Reply #42 on:** May 07, 2010, 10:00:25 AM »

Good work! Don't give up on me, I'm still planning to try the 45* shift in the next few weeks, which is my slow time of the year. -- JohnP

wuznme · « **Reply #43 on:** June 15, 2010, 06:38:36 PM »

quote:
To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.

And to think I stated this back in Oct last year on BBE with you...

EFFEN 10 · « **Reply #44 on:** June 19, 2010, 01:39:52 PM »

JohnP
Any Update?
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The more I practice,the luckier I get.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #45 on:** June 19, 2010, 04:17:58 PM »

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And to think I stated this back in Oct last year on BBE with you...

That is correct. That may have been my quote but I''m not going to look it up to see but..... that is the way you do it.

For a long discussion, go to this link on BBE.

http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/showthread.php?t=32344

There are something like 256 postings in that link, so everything you need to know is in that link.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 6/19/2010 4:20 PM

Author Topic: thumb pitch and layout suggestions (Read 12904 times)

skidhookgutter

thumb pitch and layout suggestions

JohnP

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Doug Sterner

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Brickguy221

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JohnP

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bowler001

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Brickguy221

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Doug Sterner

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Brickguy221

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Doug Sterner

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skidhookgutter

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Brickguy221

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JohnP

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wuznme

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EFFEN 10

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Brickguy221

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