Author Topic: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984... (Read 4043 times)

lefty50 · « **on:** September 19, 2016, 11:04:12 AM »

In the old days, but recently enough that technology was fairly current, it was always true that pin down layouts were earlier and smoother and pin up were longer and more angular. I'm going through dual angle theory and am finding that pin down layouts have a higher drill angle, which means longer distance to the first transition. This is opposite of what I expected. In addition, I took an old Motiv Raptor, put a pin down drilling on it (60 x 4.5 x 70) and found all of a sudden it was the longest and most angular ball in my arsenal.
That's why I titled this 1984, because I believe everything I see fits the book. Either that or I am living in a parallel universe.

Anyone have feedback or explanations that will help me regain my sanity?

Thanks in advance.

lefty50 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2016, 09:08:58 PM »

Anyone?

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2016, 09:29:13 PM »

Quote from: lefty50 on September 19, 2016, 11:04:12 AM

In the old days, but recently enough that technology was fairly current, it was always true that pin down layouts were earlier and smoother and pin up were longer and more angular. I'm going through dual angle theory and am finding that pin down layouts have a higher drill angle, which means longer distance to the first transition. This is opposite of what I expected. In addition, I took an old Motiv Raptor, put a pin down drilling on it (60 x 4.5 x 70) and found all of a sudden it was the longest and most angular ball in my arsenal.
That's why I titled this 1984, because I believe everything I see fits the book. Either that or I am living in a parallel universe.

Anyone have feedback or explanations that will help me regain my sanity?

Thanks in advance.

From most thing's I've read, Pin up / Pin down mostly only affected the VAL angle not the drill angle.

Pin up would typically result in smaller VAL angles, Pin down larger VAL angles.

Smaller Angles to the VAL lowers the RG, and increases the total differential of the ball. This results in the ball reving up faster and transitioning faster from the hook into the roll phase of the ball.

Larger Angles to the VAL raises the RG, and decreases the total differential of the ball. This results in the ball reving up slower and transitioning slower from the hook into the roll phase of the ball.

Since you went to a Pin down layout on the Raptor, that gave you a larger VAL angle on it. So that raised the RG and decreased the total differential of the ball.

Just a guess but I would think that might account for it being longer down the lane and probably being more angular. (along with the DA & pin2pap used)

HankScorpio · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2016, 12:05:29 AM »

I have also had some very strong off-the-spot pin down asyms.

My theory (and take it with a grain of salt) is that strong pin up asyms were transitioning too quickly on high friction house shots, making them appear smooth. By drilling them pin down, we decrease the differential (making it easier to get down lane) and expand the hook zone, allowing the ball to save some energy for down lane. Another way to put it: since asyms transition quicker, the pin down drilling allows the ball to roll as designed on high friction house shots rather than instantly roll forward.

Which leads to another thing to remember: balls are designed with a purpose. Layouts modify the natural reaction of the ball. They do NOT determine the reaction of the ball. What I mean by that is that drilling Brunswick BTU, for example, to skid flip will only make it skid flippier than one with a benchmark drilling. it's still going to be a smooth rolling ball.

SVstar34 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2016, 12:29:32 AM »

Quote from: HankScorpio on September 20, 2016, 12:05:29 AM

I have also had some very strong off-the-spot pin down asyms.

My theory (and take it with a grain of salt) is that strong pin up asyms were transitioning too quickly on high friction house shots, making them appear smooth. By drilling them pin down, we decrease the differential (making it easier to get down lane) and expand the hook zone, allowing the ball to save some energy for down lane. Another way to put it: since asyms transition quicker, the pin down drilling allows the ball to roll as designed on high friction house shots rather than instantly roll forward.

My thoughts are the same

LookingForALeftyWall · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2016, 11:25:16 AM »

Updated thinking on how surface and drilling impact ball motion:

1. Surface/coverstock dictates first transition from skid to hook. Drill angle on an asymmetric (smaller angle will transition sooner), balance holes, and Pin to PAP also have an effect but not as much as surface.

2. VAL angle shapes the second transition from hook to roll. Smaller VAL angle (aka pin up) yields a sharper more angular shape. Larger VAL angle (aka pin down) yields a smoother less angular shape.

3. Pin to PAP determines the amount of flare, which also usually means more hook. It also means slightly earlier hook on the lane.

In regards to the Raptor my thoughts are that surface/coverstock is dictating ball motion over layout. It's a strong pearl, designed to go long and turn hard, no? And even with the large VAL angle, an asymmetric core by nature turns harder than a symmetrical core. Without actually seeing what's happening (the interaction with oil and friction), this is my guess from behind a computer...it may be right, it may be wrong, but its just a guess...

J_w73 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2016, 01:18:19 PM »

Quote from: HankScorpio on September 20, 2016, 12:05:29 AM

I have also had some very strong off-the-spot pin down asyms.

My theory (and take it with a grain of salt) is that strong pin up asyms were transitioning too quickly on high friction house shots, making them appear smooth. By drilling them pin down, we decrease the differential (making it easier to get down lane) and expand the hook zone, allowing the ball to save some energy for down lane. Another way to put it: since asyms transition quicker, the pin down drilling allows the ball to roll as designed on high friction house shots rather than instantly roll forward.

Great explanation.
Also, if you have a weighthole in that pin down ball, the size, depth, and location can really influence the reaction.

lefty50 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2016, 05:31:38 PM »

Thanks to all for the excellent information. I can't say I understand all of the interactions indicated. I do, but it's opposite thinking from what I would have analyzed, so I'll need to ponder. I agree the Raptor is a flippy pearl, but it was really dead with pin beside or pin above (I have two) with identical surface done by myself on a spinner. I can see differential decreasing with pin down, but hook zone expanding? Hmmm. This thing was making very sharp monster moves that were out of character. And on the left side. I'll take all this into consideration and do some more experiments...
Thanks for the input!

J_w73 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2016, 05:56:15 PM »

Quote from: lefty50 on September 20, 2016, 05:31:38 PM

Thanks to all for the excellent information. I can't say I understand all of the interactions indicated. I do, but it's opposite thinking from what I would have analyzed, so I'll need to ponder. I agree the Raptor is a flippy pearl, but it was really dead with pin beside or pin above (I have two) with identical surface done by myself on a spinner. I can see differential decreasing with pin down, but hook zone expanding? Hmmm. This thing was making very sharp monster moves that were out of character. And on the left side. I'll take all this into consideration and do some more experiments...
Thanks for the input!

Perhaps with the pin beside or above the fingers it was creating more flare and the ball was burning up too much and didn't have enough energy for the backend. Or it was reacting to the dry too quickly and was just rolling forward and had no continuation.

With the pin down, you could have less flare and more energy for the backend. Like stated, the hook zone might also be longer now and providing more continuation adding to the look of more angularity or more backend. And again, weight holes can change everything.. It's all physics and all about matching up the layout and surface to the lane condition

lefty50 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2016, 08:00:30 PM »

This gets interesting. I'm a low rev lefty, so pretty much everything I have is set fairly strong, and everything has a thumb positive weight hole. The Raptor, which was pretty weak previously, is now stronger than anything. I don't think I can use the words "high friction house shot" from the left side for a low rev player, but it would explain why this ball has come alive. Clearly I'll need to expand this experiment and see what happens...

Author Topic: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984... (Read 4043 times)

lefty50

Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

lefty50

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

Aloarjr810

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

HankScorpio

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

SVstar34

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

LookingForALeftyWall

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

J_w73

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

lefty50

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

J_w73

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...

lefty50

Re: Pin down, Pin up, and George Orwell's 1984...