Author Topic: Understanding drillings (Read 22723 times)

pba300900 · « **on:** February 21, 2012, 05:36:12 AM »

I have been drilling my own balls for a few years now. Previously I went with the generic pin-up/pin-down layouts but now I am interested in drilling based on my pap and dual angles and all that stuff. Is there a website that lists what the different pin-to-pap distances and angles do? If not can someone please help enlighten me? Thanks.

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Mbosco · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2012, 02:09:18 PM »

Bowlingball.com has a section called Bowlversity on it with articles about bowling. There is a very informative one about laying out a ball with the dual angle method.

Dual Angle Article

rkj4243 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2012, 03:59:58 PM »

www.bowlingchat.net has all of the information you are looking for. Mo Pinel is major contributor there, and developed technology and mathmatics for Dual Angle layouts.

jdball299 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2012, 11:53:44 PM »

+1 on bowlingchat.net....check their wiki....lots of good info there.

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Gunny · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:09:46 AM »

try here Drillings and Stuff. from Morich web site. alot of good info there.

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arickdm · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2012, 08:07:43 AM »

I've been wonder what different Storm layouts do other than the ones they have in the booklet. So I could come up with my own

JohnP · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2012, 09:45:10 AM »

IMO, forget the Storm system (pin to PAP x pin to CG or MB x pin to VAL) and learn the dual angle system. The first link below takes you to the index page of the layouts section of the bowlingchat.net wiki and the second takes you directly to the .pdf of the dual angle system instructions. The majority of these instructions are how to lay a ball out using the system, the most important part is close to the end and deals with how to select the two angles and pin to PAP distance for a bowler's game. At the very least you'll need to read and understand the information on gradient line balance holes also. -- JohnP

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/c/cd/DualAngle.pdf

Stan · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:32:48 AM »

The Storm system works because they also use pin buffer.

Use either system that you can understand, the Storm or Dual Angle.

The only difference is that Mo gives you parameters based on your style to determine the angles.

arickdm · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:34:24 AM »

I understand dual angle but would also like to fully understand the storm system as well

Russell · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:49:38 AM »

John you obviously don't know the Storm system to say that it's incomplete. I think Dual angle is horrible on asymmetrical because it doesn't take enough into account the mb to PAP distance. I've seen Dual layouts by the book that ended up with 7" mb to PAP coordinates, yet were supposed to simply retain axis and continuation through the pins. Yes a 7" MB will do that...and help you in leaving a pocket 5/7

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

dmonroe814 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2012, 12:05:38 PM »

Let's not get ugly guys. I am just learning how to drill, and I want to learn one method first. Once I get comfortable with one method I will learn the others. The dual-angle will work, so will the storm system. It is good to have your favorite technique but please don't trash other systems. That is a bit childish.

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Tweener-Cranker (14Mph 350Revs)
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Medium: C300 Outburst Pol / C300 Game Pearl
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spmcgivern · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2012, 12:10:56 PM »

If you understand the dual angle method, then my suggestion is to compare a drilled ball with the dual angle method and see what the same Storm drilling would be. The idea is to compare the two drilling techniques. For every dual angle drilling there is a Storm drilling. The main difference is the dual angle has a developed basis for the angles. I have not seen something on the Storm website about why X" from the mass bias is used or why X" pin buffer is used. You do have that for the dual angle method.

So just take a drilled ball and see what the ending result is for each method and make some correlations.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Stan · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2012, 01:11:07 PM »

Since MB balls or Asymetrical balls came out, all manufacturers gave you pin to pap and mb to pap drill layouts. Some, including Mo Pinal gave various layouts based on your track (low, med and high).

A lot of folks think Dual Angle is something magic and new. It really isn't. Its just another way of looking at low, med and high track bowler layouts. Yes, he does add other information to determine the proper angles (speed, axis tilt and rotation which you need a video to properly obtain except for tilt).

Lets face it, when a new bowler walks into a pro shop to purchase a new ball, does the shop operator take him/her onto the lanes, video tape his/style and then reviews the video to determine the proper drill angles for this particular bowler ? I think not ! Unless the shop is empty and the lanes are available and the bowler is willing to pay for the shop operator time.

I am willing to bet that most shops will look at the old ball the bowler brought in, determine his/her PAP, find the axis tilt and discuss why this ball is not working inorder to suggest the proper new ball. Again, if lanes are available, maybe watch the bowler throw a few shots.

I look at it this way. If you like dual Angles, then use them, if you like Storm (with pin buffer) then use them. As long as you understand why you are doing what you are doing then either will work just fine.

JohnP · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:16:31 AM »

I didn't mean to say the Storm system is incomplete. Their suggested layouts have all the information needed to lay out and drill a ball. But I never found anywhere that explained how each parameter affects ball reaction and how the parameters interact. That's what the dual angle system has that the others don't, a full explanation of how the two angles and the pin to PAP distance affect reaction. I can evaluate a customer's release characteristics and match his game with a layout. And, IMO, the system does work. Every dual angle layout I've used has performed as I expected.

"Lets face it, when a new bowler walks into a pro shop to purchase a new ball, does the shop operator take him/her onto the lanes, video tape his/style and then reviews the video to determine the proper drill angles for this particular bowler ? I think not ! Unless the shop is empty and the lanes are available and the bowler is willing to pay for the shop operator time."

That's exactly what I do. I allow two hours for a new customer, starting on the lane to determine PAP location, axis tilt and rotation, and the relationship between his speed and revs (I have to use my judgement on that, don't use video). Then moving on to fitting, discussion of what he wants the ball to do, layout, drilling, then trying the ball out on the lanes. Our prices probably are a little higher than most shops, top end balls with finger grips and a thumb slug are about $260 + tax, but I drill internet balls for a fixed fee of $60 + tax which includes finger grips and a thumb slug. We don't even charge for the lineage to evaluate the customer and try out the ball. I do have the advantage of having retired from a good career and do this more as a hobby than to make money, plus our center manager doesn't mind giving some lane time away to develop a new customer. -- JohnP

Russell wrote on 2/22/2012 11:49 AM:John you obviously don't know the Storm system to say that it's incomplete. I think Dual angle is horrible on asymmetrical because it doesn't take enough into account the mb to PAP distance. I've seen Dual layouts by the book that ended up with 7" mb to PAP coordinates, yet were supposed to simply retain axis and continuation through the pins. Yes a 7" MB will do that...and help you in leaving a pocket 5/7

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

RealBowler · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:50:37 PM »

Really, you've seen a dual angle layout that had a 7" MB to PAP? If so I'd have to say that the driller truly did not understand the dual angle system, or maybe they had the incorrect specs of the bowler.

Or I guess it could also be possible with a 90 degree drilling, but honestly I can't see it happening at least not while staying in the 100* (+- 20*) sweet spot as recommended by Mo.

Seeing as how the MB is typically 6 3/4" from the pin, ending up with a MB to PAP of 7" would put the pin very close to the PAP, and probably below it.

I just can't picture it in my mind, but if you have any pictures to share it would be interesting to see.

Russell wrote on 2/22/2012 11:49 AM:John you obviously don't know the Storm system to say that it's incomplete. I think Dual angle is horrible on asymmetrical because it doesn't take enough into account the mb to PAP distance. I've seen Dual layouts by the book that ended up with 7" mb to PAP coordinates, yet were supposed to simply retain axis and continuation through the pins. Yes a 7" MB will do that...and help you in leaving a pocket 5/7

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Haywood

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Author Topic: Understanding drillings (Read 22723 times)

pba300900

Understanding drillings

Mbosco

Re: Understanding drillings

rkj4243

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jdball299

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Gunny

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arickdm

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JohnP

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Stan

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arickdm

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Russell

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dmonroe814

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spmcgivern

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Stan

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JohnP

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RealBowler

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