General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: pba300900 on February 21, 2012, 05:36:12 AM
Title: Understanding drillings
Post by: pba300900 on February 21, 2012, 05:36:12 AM
I have been drilling my own balls for a few years now. Previously I went with the generic pin-up/pin-down layouts but now I am interested in drilling based on my pap and dual angles and all that stuff. Is there a website that lists what the different pin-to-pap distances and angles do? If not can someone please help enlighten me? Thanks.
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Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Mbosco on February 21, 2012, 02:09:18 PM
Bowlingball.com has a section called Bowlversity on it with articles about bowling. There is a very informative one about laying out a ball with the dual angle method.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: rkj4243 on February 21, 2012, 03:59:58 PM
www.bowlingchat.net has all of the information you are looking for. Mo Pinel is major contributor there, and developed technology and mathmatics for Dual Angle layouts.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: jdball299 on February 21, 2012, 11:53:44 PM
+1 on bowlingchat.net....check their wiki....lots of good info there.
"...do or do not, there is no try."
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Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Gunny on February 22, 2012, 07:09:46 AM
try here Drillings and Stuff. from Morich web site. alot of good info there.
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Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: arickdm on February 22, 2012, 08:07:43 AM
I've been wonder what different Storm layouts do other than the ones they have in the booklet. So I could come up with my own
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: JohnP on February 22, 2012, 09:45:10 AM
IMO, forget the Storm system (pin to PAP x pin to CG or MB x pin to VAL) and learn the dual angle system. The first link below takes you to the index page of the layouts section of the bowlingchat.net wiki and the second takes you directly to the .pdf of the dual angle system instructions. The majority of these instructions are how to lay a ball out using the system, the most important part is close to the end and deals with how to select the two angles and pin to PAP distance for a bowler's game. At the very least you'll need to read and understand the information on gradient line balance holes also. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 22, 2012, 10:32:48 AM
The Storm system works because they also use pin buffer.
Use either system that you can understand, the Storm or Dual Angle.
The only difference is that Mo gives you parameters based on your style to determine the angles.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: arickdm on February 22, 2012, 10:34:24 AM
I understand dual angle but would also like to fully understand the storm system as well
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Russell on February 22, 2012, 10:49:38 AM
John you obviously don't know the Storm system to say that it's incomplete. I think Dual angle is horrible on asymmetrical because it doesn't take enough into account the mb to PAP distance. I've seen Dual layouts by the book that ended up with 7" mb to PAP coordinates, yet were supposed to simply retain axis and continuation through the pins. Yes a 7" MB will do that...and help you in leaving a pocket 5/7
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Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: dmonroe814 on February 22, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
Let's not get ugly guys. I am just learning how to drill, and I want to learn one method first. Once I get comfortable with one method I will learn the others. The dual-angle will work, so will the storm system. It is good to have your favorite technique but please don't trash other systems. That is a bit childish.
Old Man Still Learning 300x4 800x3 (High 814x2) Hi Avg 218 Cur Ave 214 Tweener-Cranker (14Mph 350Revs) Heavy: Storm VG Nano 4000AB Pol / C300 World Beater Pol Medium: C300 Outburst Pol / C300 Game Pearl Light: C300 Scout Reactive / Brunswich Avalanche Pearl
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: spmcgivern on February 22, 2012, 12:10:56 PM
If you understand the dual angle method, then my suggestion is to compare a drilled ball with the dual angle method and see what the same Storm drilling would be. The idea is to compare the two drilling techniques. For every dual angle drilling there is a Storm drilling. The main difference is the dual angle has a developed basis for the angles. I have not seen something on the Storm website about why X" from the mass bias is used or why X" pin buffer is used. You do have that for the dual angle method.
So just take a drilled ball and see what the ending result is for each method and make some correlations.
I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 22, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
Since MB balls or Asymetrical balls came out, all manufacturers gave you pin to pap and mb to pap drill layouts. Some, including Mo Pinal gave various layouts based on your track (low, med and high).
A lot of folks think Dual Angle is something magic and new. It really isn't. Its just another way of looking at low, med and high track bowler layouts. Yes, he does add other information to determine the proper angles (speed, axis tilt and rotation which you need a video to properly obtain except for tilt).
Lets face it, when a new bowler walks into a pro shop to purchase a new ball, does the shop operator take him/her onto the lanes, video tape his/style and then reviews the video to determine the proper drill angles for this particular bowler ? I think not ! Unless the shop is empty and the lanes are available and the bowler is willing to pay for the shop operator time.
I am willing to bet that most shops will look at the old ball the bowler brought in, determine his/her PAP, find the axis tilt and discuss why this ball is not working inorder to suggest the proper new ball. Again, if lanes are available, maybe watch the bowler throw a few shots.
I look at it this way. If you like dual Angles, then use them, if you like Storm (with pin buffer) then use them. As long as you understand why you are doing what you are doing then either will work just fine.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: JohnP on February 23, 2012, 10:16:31 AM
I didn't mean to say the Storm system is incomplete. Their suggested layouts have all the information needed to lay out and drill a ball. But I never found anywhere that explained how each parameter affects ball reaction and how the parameters interact. That's what the dual angle system has that the others don't, a full explanation of how the two angles and the pin to PAP distance affect reaction. I can evaluate a customer's release characteristics and match his game with a layout. And, IMO, the system does work. Every dual angle layout I've used has performed as I expected.
"Lets face it, when a new bowler walks into a pro shop to purchase a new ball, does the shop operator take him/her onto the lanes, video tape his/style and then reviews the video to determine the proper drill angles for this particular bowler ? I think not ! Unless the shop is empty and the lanes are available and the bowler is willing to pay for the shop operator time."
That's exactly what I do. I allow two hours for a new customer, starting on the lane to determine PAP location, axis tilt and rotation, and the relationship between his speed and revs (I have to use my judgement on that, don't use video). Then moving on to fitting, discussion of what he wants the ball to do, layout, drilling, then trying the ball out on the lanes. Our prices probably are a little higher than most shops, top end balls with finger grips and a thumb slug are about $260 + tax, but I drill internet balls for a fixed fee of $60 + tax which includes finger grips and a thumb slug. We don't even charge for the lineage to evaluate the customer and try out the ball. I do have the advantage of having retired from a good career and do this more as a hobby than to make money, plus our center manager doesn't mind giving some lane time away to develop a new customer. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: RealBowler on February 23, 2012, 12:50:37 PM
Really, you've seen a dual angle layout that had a 7" MB to PAP? If so I'd have to say that the driller truly did not understand the dual angle system, or maybe they had the incorrect specs of the bowler.
Or I guess it could also be possible with a 90 degree drilling, but honestly I can't see it happening at least not while staying in the 100* (+- 20*) sweet spot as recommended by Mo.
Seeing as how the MB is typically 6 3/4" from the pin, ending up with a MB to PAP of 7" would put the pin very close to the PAP, and probably below it.
I just can't picture it in my mind, but if you have any pictures to share it would be interesting to see.
Haywood
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Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: spmcgivern on February 23, 2012, 12:52:05 PM
I think the Dual Angle method is a better system to use for now. The Storm method does provide the same abilities in drilling a ball, but the numbers can be misleading.
A 4" PAP-MB distance in the Storm method means something different depending on the Pin-PAP distance. If the Pin-PAP distance if short, then a 4" PAP-MB distance creates a significant drilling angle. If the Pin-PAP distance is longer then a 4" Pin-PAP distance would create a smaller drilling angle. Same distance, different results.
Same applies for the pin buffer where the Pin-PAP distance will change the effect of a constant pin buffer.
This means a 4" x 2" x 4" is drastically different than a 4" x 6" x 4" beyond the difference in Pin-PAP. But a 45° x 2" x 45° is similar to a 45° x 6" x 45° drilling.
This is my understanding of the two systems. This may be why Storm doesn't have any analysis of their system and how the distances relate to ball reaction.
I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
Edited by spmcgivern on 2/23/2012 at 1:52 PM
Edited by spmcgivern on 2/23/2012 at 1:54 PM
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 24, 2012, 02:36:57 PM
That's exactly what I do. I allow two hours for a new customer, starting on the lane to determine PAP location, axis tilt and rotation, and the relationship between his speed and revs (I have to use my judgement on that, don't use video). Then moving on to fitting, discussion of what he wants the ball to do, layout, drilling, then trying the ball out on the lanes. Our prices probably are a little higher than most shops, top end balls with finger grips and a thumb slug are about $260 + tax, but I drill internet balls for a fixed fee of $60 + tax which includes finger grips and a thumb slug. We don't even charge for the lineage to evaluate the customer and try out the ball. I do have the advantage of having retired from a good career and do this more as a hobby than to make money, plus our center manager doesn't mind giving some lane time away to develop a new customer. -- JohnP
John, that is exactly the problem. You watch someone bowl and you "Guess" what their specs are. That is really no different than drilling from the drill sheet. Without accurate specs, your dual angle layout is no different than any other layout.
This is my main beef about dual angel layouts. I really believe, those shop that pretend to use them are only guessing on the customers specs. Please do not tell me that by eye, you can get their rev rate and tell the difference from a 45 degree to 60 degree axis rotation. I am sure you are doing your best, but a guess is a guess.
Edited by Stan on 2/24/2012 at 3:39 PM
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: JohnP on February 24, 2012, 06:44:20 PM
OK, but at least it's a guess that I can put into a scientifically proven system. If I'm off a little I'll still provide a better matched layout than I can with any other system. You use whatever system you want, I'm sticking with dual angle. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 24, 2012, 08:48:55 PM
John, you know the old saying. "Garbage in, Garbage out".
If you can not accurately obtain the bowlers specs, then it does not matter what system you use. You are just guessing on what the layout should be and also doing a disservce to your customers who think they are getting a "True" dual angle drilling based on their style of play.
As I said before, even in bowlingchat, too many pro shops and even bowlers are guessing on their specs. That is the downside of the Dual Angle method.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 25, 2012, 08:15:48 AM
OK, but at least it's a guess that I can put into a scientifically proven system. If I'm off a little I'll still provide a better matched layout than I can with any other system. You use whatever system you want, I'm sticking with dual angle. -- JohnP
John, lets take a real close look at the Dual Angle Layout (not Mo's paramenters).
1. Draw you base line from the pin to the MB.
2. Then mark off you drill angle and mark your Pin to PAP.
Lets stop here first. The drill angle determines your MB to PAP. Greater drill angles equals bigger MB to PAP numbers. For example, if you drill angle was zero, Pin to PAP was 4 then your MB to PAP would be 2 3/4 (standard MB Placement). The further you move the Drill angle out, the larger the MB to PAP becomes. So what you have just done is a standard MB/PIN to PAP layout.
3. Next, you mark off your VAL angle.
Lets stop again. The larger your VAL angle the greater your pin buffer is. Pin buffer is defined as the shortest line from the Pin the VAL line. Again, the lower the VAL angle, the shorter the Pin buffer is.
At this point, you have done nothing different with a dual angle vs a MB/PIN to PAP layout with Pin buffer.
Now comes the interesting part. Mo has taken all the High, Med and Low track layouts and included other parameters (speed, axis tilt, axis rotation, rev rate) and has come up with with a theory as to what angles work best. This isn't science, its just his opinion on what would work best for various styles of bowlers. Yes, it is a very good starting point and yes, Mo is a very smart person. All Mo is trying to create is a simplified method to laying out bowling balls. There is no magic or science, just his experience. He is trying to make is simple for all Pro Shops to understand. BUT, when you guess at the starting parameters you are not following his instructions. This method is based on ACCURATE starting parameters.
I doubt very seriously if you would go to bowlingchat and tell the folks that you are guessing at the starting parameters for you bowlers when doing a Dual Angle layout. I am sure, your REP points would go down a bunch.
John, I am not picking on you, just trying to say that I feel most Pro Shops do it your way. Collecting accurate information for every bowler is very time comsuming and if you have a busy shop, I would feel it would be almost impossible.
Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 9:19 AM
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: bowler001 on February 25, 2012, 11:11:02 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Are you trying to say storms system doesn't require you to know anything about someones game before drilling them a ball? Either system still requires you to know what type of bowler you are dealing with. I think the point is that the storm system doesn't explain what different mb to pap distances do or what different pin to pap distances do. The dual angle system makes it very clear. Also, you're not required to know all specs exact with the dual angle system. While some things it's important to be exact like tilt, it can simply be gotten with an armadillo. Other things like speed and rotation you need to know a range....high, low, etc. same with speed and revs, just in comparison to each other.
Also, it seems you don't really even know how to properly use the dual angle system. Your example of a zero degree layout is a moot point since a zero degree layout isn't even in the recommended range of drill angles. If it were, with a 4" pin to pap, a zero degree drill angle would put the mb 1.5" past the bowlers VAL. Far from standard "mb" location as you put it. I can find multiple combinations of drill and Val angles that put the mb 2-3/4" from the pap and they will all do different things. That's the point.
Doug Morton Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Stan on February 25, 2012, 12:09:33 PM
Also, it seems you don't really even know how to properly use the dual angle system. Your example of a zero degree layout is a moot point since a zero degree layout isn't even in the recommended range of drill angles.
This was just example used to show that the drill angle is the same as MB to PAP. I gave you a starting point for the MB and tried to explain (guess not too good) that when you make the drill angle larger, you increase the MB to PAP.
Doug, standard MB to Pin is 6 3/4 inches. If you make the drill angle zero (yes, I know its not in the acceptable range, again only for this explanation) with a 4 inch pin to pap you will have 2 3/4 inches from the MB to the PAP. Not sure what you are talking about.
I am not trying to argue with you or anyone else. My understanding of Dual Angles is you should be precise with you customers specs in order to use the system properly. That was and still is my only point. If I am wrong with this assumption and guessing is acceptable, then so be it.
Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 1:17 PM
Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 1:18 PM
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: bowler001 on February 25, 2012, 12:42:19 PM
I'm aware that mb is 6-3/4 from the pin. What I'm saying is yes, a zero degree layout puts the mb 2-3/4 from pap with a 4" pin to pap, but it also locates it way past the Val. You made it sound like that was a standard type layout so i misinderstood that. The point is you could have the mb 2-3/4" from the pap in a myriad of different locations. Thats the difference.
Doug Morton Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska
Brunswick Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: JohnP on February 25, 2012, 04:13:42 PM
Stan opened a topic at bowlingchat on this subject, the link is below if you'd like to follow it. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: completebowler on February 27, 2012, 04:10:14 AM
You do not need exact numbers to be able to use the dual angle method for layouts. You need to understand basics about laying out bowling balls and incorporate them into the system. Yes, exact numbers make the system that much more accurate, but they do not make or break a sucessful layout.
Also, the dual angle method gives us exact numbers to duplicate layouts from one ball to another. Guy comes in and loves the way his Mission works and wants the the Mission X to do the same thing for heavier volume. Great...grab the numbers and put it on the new ball.
Another guy comes in and says he loves his Nano...but thinks it rolls a bit too early. Great! Grab the numbers, tweak them for more length, and whammo!! A Nano that gets through the front better.
It would be impossible to take the specs off of every bowler. Some of the best drillers I know don't even operate inside a center. To say they are doing their customers a disservice by laying out stuff from their extensive years of knowledge is b.s. in my book.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES IBPSIA MEMBER WALLED LAKE MI
<div>You do not need exact numbers to be able to use the dual angle method for layouts. You need to understand basics about laying out bowling balls and incorporate them into the system. Yes, exact numbers make the system that much more accurate, but they do not make or break a sucessful layout.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, the dual angle method gives us exact numbers to duplicate layouts from one ball to another. Guy comes in and loves the way his Mission works and wants the the Mission X to do the same thing for heavier volume. Great...grab the numbers and put it on the new ball.</div> <div> </div> <div>Another guy comes in and says he loves his Nano...but thinks it rolls a bit too early. Great! Grab the numbers, tweak them for more length, and whammo!! A Nano that gets through the front better.</div> <div> </div> <div>It would be impossible to take the specs off of every bowler. Some of the best drillers I know don't even operate inside a center. To say they are doing their customers a disservice by laying out stuff from their extensive years of knowledge is b.s. in my book.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <blockquote style="margin-right: 0px" dir="ltr"> <div style="font-size: 10pt"><em> <fieldset><legend><a href="javascript:UserProfile(6643);">Stan</a> wrote on 2/24/2012 9:48 PM:</legend><em> <div>John, you know the old saying. "Garbage in, Garbage out".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you can not accurately obtain the bowlers specs, then it does not matter what system you use. You are just guessing on what the layout should be and also doing a disservce to your customers who think they are getting a "True" dual angle drilling based on their style of play.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As I said before, even in bowlingchat, too many pro shops and even bowlers are guessing on their specs. That is the downside of the Dual Angle method.</div>
</em></fieldset></em></div></blockquote>
<div><font color="red">ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES IBPSIA MEMBER WALLED LAKE MI</font> </div> <div> </div> <div><a title="All Star Bowling & Trophy" href="http://www.facebook.com/allstarbowlingtrophy?ref=ts">All Star Bowling & Trophy</a></div>
----------------------- Completebowler, I use the Dual Angle Method myself but your statement is not correct. Your opinion stated is that the Dual Angle Method allows for adjustments in designed ball motion designs that by the driller that the Storm Method does not account for. That is not correct. Adjusting the MB to PAP distance(Storm Method) is equal to adjusting Drill Angles(Dual Angle Method). Adjusting the Pin Buffer(Storm Method) is the same as adjusting the VAL Angle(Dual Angle Method). The real only difference is 4x4 3"buffer doesn't sound as techy as 45x4x45. Still if bowler comes in and liked his Nano drilled 4x4 3"buffer, the driller can duplicate the same 4x4 3" buffer on anther Nano. Likewise if bowler comes in and feels that Nano "moves too early" the 4x4 3"buffer can be adjusted just as effectively as the 45x4x45 to create the desired adjustmed ball design. The Dual Angle Method is what I choose to utilize but I would be just as effective creating desired ball motion if utilizing the Storm Pin Buffer Method.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: Juggernaut on June 24, 2012, 01:26:27 PM
There is an easy way to solve this.
1. Strict limits on RG(2.6 or higher) and DIFF(.20 or lower). 2. Limit durometer readings to 79 and higher. 3. Limit porosity to levels 1/2 todays levels. 4. Limit COF to pre-1980 levels 5. Outlaw pin out balls 6. Outlaw drillings with cg more than 2" from grip center 7. Outlaw weightholes, except as NEEDED to adjust back to "legal" static weights 8. No weightholes more than 1" from pap.
I KNOW, I KNOW, it's not ever going to happen, so I don't need a sermon on the subject, but it would make things much simpler.
Title: Re: Understanding drillings
Post by: bowlingdude01 on June 24, 2012, 04:30:06 PM
there is no easy to solve this problem in my eyes usbc or whomever can do what ever they want to the rg and the diff.as far dual angle layout goes you do need exacat # or yournot even going to be close to the reaction you are looking for. W all know this layout method was created to be more accurate laying out a bowling ball but this is just mho