Post by: xrayjay on December 04, 2011, 11:47:12 AM
I've decided to switch to the IT system instead of the thumb mold, and tweak my thumb pitch this weekend.
At 1/4 reverse, no matter how tight I make my thumb be, I still grab. Especially when I am tired or under pressure.
Have any of you gone forward pitch with your thumb? And, what is your span?
Is it a wrong time to do this in the season?
Thanks for any suggestions or advice given....
I'll update my progress...(rushing out the door)
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AKA: addik Edited by xrayjay on 12/12/2011 at 9:54 PM
Post by: dna300x on December 05, 2011, 01:25:01 PM
I typically use black 1 3/8 Vise thumb slugs, but have been experimenting with the IT system as I am particular about my bevel and prefer a rougher feel.
My span and thumb hinge indicated a need for 5/16 reverse pitch which was what my pro shop operators drilled for years. I got a job in the pro shop as a teenager and did some experimentation on my own.
Like you I found that no matter how tight I made the hole, I still squeezed the crap out of the ball.
I just drilled up a piece for myself one day as a gag at 1/4 forward just to see what would happen. I was pleasantly surprised with what I had done.
I backed off a little on it to only an 1/8 forward in the thumb, but I definitely have a more secure grip now. I should add that this was probably a major benefit to me seeing as how I have a relatively short thumb and moist skin. I use a lot of rosin on my thumb like Wes Malott too.
My spans are 4 3/4 and 4 7/8 full so the traditional methods would be up in arms. I don't see it as a detriment at all.
I should make a note though. I find that the size of the hole becomes a little more critical, or at least for me it does. I have to go a little bit bigger than before and add two pieces of tape in my ball. I find in game 1 both pieces work, gm 2. I take one piece out, and gm 3 all the tape comes out. If you get the thumb too tight, it may be difficult to get that good, clean release we're all striving for.
I hope this helps
Get MOTIVated!
Post by: ImBackInTheGame on December 05, 2011, 02:34:13 PM
If you ever read any of Ron Clifton's articles, he strongly believes that most people have too much reverse pitch and should try moving it forward.
My span is around 5" and if you go by the "chart" it says I should have 7/16 reverse pitch for my thumb. My first driller did 1/8 reverse, couldn't get out of the ball, second driller changed to what the chart said (7/16), didn't like it, moved to 5/16 reverse and it's better, but I think I could go a little more forward than that.
Post by: charlest on December 05, 2011, 02:40:35 PM
Darren,
For whatever it's worth-
What you posted ran no special bells for me until I saw your span. My change was less radical but still a change: I went from 3/8" to 1/4" reverse to zero about 3 years ago. My span is now 4 3/4". At one time it was 5" with the 3/8" reverse. I went to 4 15/16" with the 1/4" reverse and stopped at the current 0 rev/fwd.
My thumb is also relatively flexible compared to many and roughly 2 3/4" long.
Also I found I needed much less tape and was less sensitive to the amount of tape in the ball. I still feel most comfortable when I almost have to jam my thumb in the ball, very similar to what I learned Chris Barnes does. I use thumb tape on the back of my thumb to prevent blistering from too much use.
xrayjay,
FWIW I am considering going to the next step down, 1/8" forward. I had tried it previously but I believe it did not work for me because I did not reduce my span again. The further the forward pitch you use, the less force/pressure you have to apply to hold onto the ball. BUT you must remember to reduce your span somewhat, at the same time, unless your current span is already on the shorter side.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited by charlest on 12/5/2011 at 3:44 PM
Post by: xrayjay on December 05, 2011, 06:13:46 PM
Thanks for the great info guys.
According to the chart, I should be 1/4 reverse.
Anyway, my span (on the short side) is 4 1/2 on both fingers. it was shorten by 1/16th and 1/8th couple years back, and I should of gone forward then. I'll try "0" or "1/8" forward to start and go from there. It'll be costly to do this, but I think it's time for a change...
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Post by: JustRico on December 05, 2011, 07:01:29 PM
You should not making changes that are greater of 1/8" at a tiime to help gauge future changes. Make sure you have the proper grip/span then adjust pitch around it.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: xrayjay on December 05, 2011, 07:28:08 PM
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Post by: LuckyLefty on December 05, 2011, 08:29:41 PM
I'm using 1 1/2 inch forward and one inch lateral "OUT" pitch!
Can anyone beat that?
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: charlest on December 05, 2011, 08:38:40 PM
I would not be interested in beating that. It's too far on the extreme side for me.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: makpa on December 06, 2011, 04:25:37 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 06, 2011, 08:44:18 AM
I left the bevel the same and have nerve damage under the base of my thumb.
My average is down 20 points and I can't hook it anymore.
I used to use 5 1/8 span now I use 3 7/8.
Am I headed in the right direction?
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: StupidHambone on December 06, 2011, 10:00:45 AM
Long story short, I had a horrible driller when i started bowling. I was at 3/8 reverse when i started. Didn't know any better at the time so I just assumed it was right. Did research and went to someone else. He shrunk my span by 1/4 of an inch, yes it was off by that much, and move my thumb to 1/4 forward. Haven't looked back since and loved it from the first ball i threw.
Post by: milorafferty on December 06, 2011, 10:08:57 AM
Good Post! I attended one of Ron's clinics this summer and was having some wrist issues I suspected were being caused by my ball fit. One of the first things Ron did was check my thumb pitch and recommended a change. Since working with Ron, my wrist is no longer an issue and my average is up 10+ pins over last year.
Post by: xrayjay on December 06, 2011, 11:22:44 AM
milo...did you attend the one clinic in Woodland, CA.? I believe the guy helping me was from woodland shop from what I've heard. Anyway, can't wait to get this started.
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Post by: milorafferty on December 06, 2011, 01:19:43 PM
Yep, the Woodland clinic. Not sure who has the pro-shop there now, but it was Lonnie Cavins previously. Lonnie's wife is now the GM of Woodhaven, so Lonnie moved to Landpark with his shop.
Post by: xrayjay on December 06, 2011, 01:43:36 PM
yeah he did.... I missed the clinic cause I had to work that weekend. I wish I had gone...it'll be awhile till RC comes around this area again....btw, where do you bowl out of?
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Post by: milorafferty on December 06, 2011, 01:54:10 PM
I bowl in Stockton, Manteca and Dublin.
It was a good clinic, Ron really knows bowling, has good insight and a great ability to transfer that knowledge to his student.
We might be able to get him back out here next summer. Lonnie and Diana are the ones who got him to hold the Woodland clinic. It was a full roster, so it should have been worth Ron's time at least. If he comes back, I'll attend again.
Post by: xrayjay on December 06, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
I kinda had a hunch that he might have had something to do with RC coming to NorCal. If he does come back, I'll be sure to attend. btw, I head down to stockton and manteca for Match Club, maybe I'll see you there..
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Post by: milorafferty on December 06, 2011, 02:16:51 PM
Cool, I bowl with the West Lane club and with Manteca. I'll be there Saturday for the fun day.
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 06, 2011, 02:43:26 PM
really good information!
I'm thinking of going to 3 1/2 span and 2 inches forward?
Any thoughts?
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: xrayjay on December 06, 2011, 03:08:11 PM
Lol
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Post by: Monster Stitch on December 06, 2011, 05:39:31 PM
Xrayjay: I use the VISE IT system and my pitches are zero lateral and 1/8 forward. It's a huge difference and makes it so easy to lay the ball in your hand. In the past i've gone from 5/16 reverse to 3/16 to 1/8 to Zero and now 1/8 forward. No grabbing anymore. It's night and day. I've helped a few friends switched to forward and their bowling has changed a whole lot. It's never too late to change right away because you are always striving to get better.
Post by: Mike Austin on December 09, 2011, 10:16:11 PM
I made a similar change about 2-3 months ago. I play with my pitches a lot, I have trouble getting the right feel, I always seem to be squeezing. My latest move went from 1/8 rev and 1/8 left to 1/8 rev and 1/4 left, thinking that would reduce rub on the right side of my thumb. I was still having to use my thumb holes really tight.
About 3 months ago, I changed to 1/4 forward and 1/8 left. I shortened my span 1/16. This was a good change, but I added the 1/16 back in, and am now at 4 1/2 on both fingers. I can use my thumb hole about a piece of tape too big and the ball hangs on to me, it feels really good. I came in 4th in the second regional I bowled after a 3+ year lay off from PBA tournaments. I shot 298/801 this week, and am not sharp at all, but the ball just comes off so clean, and I can really reduce my grip pressure.
I tend to agree with Ric. Be careful when changing pitches like this and doing too much at one time. I reslugged a junk ball and bowled with it before changing over any of my regular equipment. I use the Vise IT in everything. I'm very lazy about my stuff though. The balls that had the IT in them just got reslugged to the new pitch. Anything I have drilled new since have the IT and have had no problems with the IT system ever. I did drill a couple new thumbs because the bevel was different at the top of the old ones. I added the 1/16 back in my span AND reduced the bevel on the front of the hole. I really want the ball to hold on to me. I never have thrown the ball very hard, and my grip pressure has always been very light. To me, this is the key! You have to trust and let go of the ball. But, in the long run, your reduced grip pressure will loosen your swing, increase your ball speed and revs. LESS IS MORE!!
Sorry so long, hope this helps!!
Mike Austin's Bowling Dynamix Pro Shop
Houston, TX
Coming Soon: BowlingDynamix.com
Post by: xrayjay on December 12, 2011, 09:47:00 PM
We went forward by a good amount. I know several of you will disagree with this - that I went too far forward, or far forward too fast. But after throwing several frames/games, I finally got a pitch that felt comfortable with a clean release. I bowled several games during our match club away match and during practice over the weekend and I can't believe how well I'm rolling the ball. The biggest difference with the change is my tennis elbow pain. It's not sore after 18-20 games over the weekend. (fyi, I struggled on the drier lanes in our match, couldn't keep balls to the right side of the pocket. I did better using polyester on the track, but it was too late).
I still feel I could go forward some more, but I'll bowl for several more times and see if I need to adjust span or pitch, or leave it done. Right now, my span hasn't changed. It actually feels better now than before. It was shortened a couple of years ago (1/16 & 1/8) and this caused me to squeeze even more (may have caused my tennis elbow.) But, because I had other important career priorities and the lack of quality drillers, or drillers willing to work with me in my area, I left it alone.
The end result is 3/8th forward from 1/4 reverse, a 5/8th difference. The new feel doesn't seem foreign to me for some odd reason. I've always felt I needed to go forward pitch because of the gripping sensation I would feel during my swing and release. Plus, my inconsistent roll and accuracy were the result of my squeezing most of the time. In the end, I'm glad I did this.
It's not over with tinkering with my pitch or span, this will take time to do. But for now, I'm liking very much what I feel and see. The amount of revs I generate without even trying is amazing too.. You're right Mike, "less is more"...
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