Post by: J_w73 on April 23, 2009, 11:25:12 AM
Just want to throw this out there and see what people think..
My thinking/theory about the whole pin buffer angle to the VAL lingo.
I always see threads about pin buffer and angle to the VAL and what it does for ball reaction. It isnt the actual Pin buffer distance or angle to the VAL that MAKES the ball do what it does.. it is where the pin is in relation to the finger and thumbholes.... It is the holes that are taking weight out of the core and changing the RG and differential and making the ball react the way it does..
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...
both of these also change the rg differential but I haven't come to a clear conclusion as to how that affects the reaction in these cases.. I think it has to do with a combo of the pin to pap.. example.. a skid flip layout to me is usually a longer pin to pap 5" plus .. this lowers the flare..and raises the RG already.. now put the pin up close to the VAL allows weight to be taken out of the side of the core...it does increase the diff and the flare but I don't think it is enough to make the ball hook early.. the higher RG overpowers the increase in rg diff and flare that is created.
I lay out my own equipment. When laying out some of my stronger layouts I actually use the thumb hole distance from the pin as a factor in my layouts..
This is basically the same concept as Morich's double thumb layout..
gets you a really strong hooking ball.. at leverage the core is already in an unstable position and at its highest flaring potention.. now when you have a thumb hole 6 3/4 away and a weight hole 6 3/4 away you are taking alot of weight out of the side and thus increasing the RG differential even more and increasing the flare making the ball want to hook more... in this case you are also increasing the RG but at this pin position I think the rg diff and flare overpowers whatever raise in RG was created..
I am not a driller and just a guy trying to learn ball dynamics.. I don't claim to know everything and always looking to learn.. This is just where I am right now in my thinking and everything I have learned seems to support it.
I'm sure some people will strongly disagree. Interested in all replies.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 23, 2009, 07:31:48 PM
Post by: J_w73 on April 23, 2009, 07:40:49 PM
quote:
How the weight drilled out by the holes alters the RG and differential is just part of the equation. Think back to the even more basics of ball reaction. The pin is the marker for the top of the core. Changing the pin location changes the orientation of the core, which alters when and where and how it flares. The core wants to eventually return to a stable position, and how it does this is determined by how it is oriented when the ball begins rolling down the lane. If you took a ball with no holes and rolled it, the pin buffer from the VAL will greatly alter when, where, and how the ball hooks. The holes you drill into the ball and into the core will just alter the nature of the core's natural tendancies.
I'm glad you brought up throwing a ball with no holes.. I would think that if you threw a ball with no holes(on a throwbot) that the only thing that would matter in the reation would be the pin to PAP distance(or position of the core in relation to the rotation).. it wouldn't matter where the pin was in relation to the proposed VAL.. the ball would still roll with the same reation regardless..
are you agreeing with this or saying something different.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 23, 2009, 07:50:13 PM
Post by: bluerrpilot on April 23, 2009, 08:14:48 PM
The ball in its motion is still trying to find a preferred spin axis or stable point. How the core is tipped or situated from the beginning of its journey to its end in relation to the bowlers release or PAP is what dictates its rotation/roll characteristics and its ability to flare. That in combination with the cover and surface prep helps to determine how it responds to the lane.
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 01:15:43 AM
quote:
I would assume the pin to VAL location would make a difference in the shape of the reaction. Yes, the pin to PAP distance is going to affect how much the ball flares and how long it takes to return to a stable position. However, the pin to VAL relationship should also have an effect on the reaction shape simply because it's still altering the core's position from the stable rotation point it wants to be in at the finish. The caveat of course is that I'm not a throwbot (sadly) so I can't say I've ever tried this experiment to be sure.
just logically if you visualize it it wouldn't matter where the pin is in relation to the VAL if the ball doesn't have any holes.. the ball spins about its PAP.. say the pin is put in a position at release so that it is 3 3/8 from the PAP.. with out holes it will not matter where the pin is at in relation to the throw bot grip at release.. so that it is 3 3/8 from the PAP...
any spot with the pin 3 3/8 from the PAP has the same core dynamics during rotation with out the holes.. that is my point .. it isnt the VAL that causes the change in ball dynamics.. it is the holes that changes the core that changes the ball dynamics...
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 01:18:13 AM
quote:
I am in no way a guru on dynamics but this is how I see it.
The ball in its motion is still trying to find a preferred spin axis or stable point. How the core is tipped or situated from the beginning of its journey to its end in relation to the bowlers release or PAP is what dictates its rotation/roll characteristics and its ability to flare. That in combination with the cover and surface prep helps to determine how it responds to the lane.
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
agreed.. pin on PAP.. stable.. Pin 6 3/4 for PAP .. stable... PIN 3 3/8 from PAP most unstable .. most flare..
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Jay on April 24, 2009, 03:37:35 AM
Back on topic, I think I agree with your interpretation of the VAL placement. I don't really see the way that the gripping holes drilled on top of the core lowers the RG(or keeps it low?) or drilled on the side raises the RG. I'm not scientifically smart, but it makes sense when you consider the fact that the pin near the VAL(fingers on side of core) is supposed to increase length/backend and the pin away from the VAL(fingers near pin/top of core) is supposed to create a more even hooking reaction.
Post by: bluerrpilot on April 24, 2009, 08:53:32 AM
quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Post by: bluerrpilot on April 24, 2009, 08:57:39 AM
...On second thought, please don’t explain that one..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Edited on 4/24/2009 8:58 AM
Post by: khamûl on April 24, 2009, 09:06:25 AM
quote:
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...
You have these kinda backwards. Drilling holes always raises the rg along the plane that the holes are drilled. So, drilling into the side of the core concentrates more mass along the X axis, lowering rgs along X and raising rgs near Y. This causes an increase in diff and intermediate diff and generally a lower overall average rg. Drilling with the pin lower in the grip raises rgs near the X axis and does not change Y values much, keeping the ending diffs & intermediate diffs on the lower end of the spectrum.
Pin placement is just rg contour management.
--------------------
good luck and good bowling.
Post by: insidedrive on April 24, 2009, 09:18:39 AM
One thing to remember that's extremely important is the bowlers track style and PAP. With the track and PAP measurements creating a VAL line it gives you the area of the ball where the Pin placement will have the most, or the least amount of effect on overall ball reaction. One thing to remember is that bowlers with a very low track, < 4 over, will end up having drillings that place the pin closer to the fingers and slightly above or slightly below. By drilling the pin further from the fingers on a track that is low or a PAP that is down can give undesired reaction because it does not match up with that bowlers PAP and Track lines. Therefore distance from fingers can't truly be used as a rule of thumb.
Think about it in terms of placement of the core. By looking at the track and val of the bowler you can actually see how the tilt of the core (placement of the pin) will be drastically different. The drilling of the finger holes is just a secondary effect on the ball that results in a balance hole or no balance hole.
It's similar to doing a dual thumb drilling, the secondary thumb hole does not determine the characteristics of the reaction, it can only enhance or moderately effect it. The same is with the fingers. The pin placement with relation to the val and drilling angle determines what the ball will do, then the finger and weight holes will be adjusting differentials and can be changed with deeper drilling holes, balance holes, X-out hole drillings, etc.
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 09:34:24 AM
quote:
And how is laying out a ball based on the thumb distance from your pin basically the same as a double thumb layout? Is that like saying my 4 runner is basically the same as a corvette because they both have 4 wheels and rear wheel drive ?
...On second thought, please don’t explain that one..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Edited on 4/24/2009 8:58 AM
I am just saying that the pricinpal is the same.. I pick a strong pin position.. say leverage or 4 inches to PAP.. then I make sure the thumb is 6 3/4 from the Pin.. that is essentiall what the double thumb is doing .. putting two big weight voids at 6 3/4 from the pin to enhance the reaction.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 09:46:23 AM
quote:quote:
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...
You have these kinda backwards. Drilling holes always raises the rg along the plane that the holes are drilled. So, drilling into the side of the core concentrates more mass along the X axis, lowering rgs along X and raising rgs near Y. This causes an increase in diff and intermediate diff and generally a lower overall average rg. Drilling with the pin lower in the grip raises rgs near the X axis and does not change Y values much, keeping the ending diffs & intermediate diffs on the lower end of the spectrum.
Pin placement is just rg contour management.
--------------------
good luck and good bowling.
....so you are saying that if you drill into the side of the core that doesn't raise the RG.. ok.. I can maybe get that..not the overal RG but I think you said it... it would increase the differential .. and maybe that is what I was trying to describe.. the core would now have more weight to the outside since you took weight from the center... let me know if I am making sense or still wrong
if I have a core and make it shorter on the top and bottom.. haven't I just lowered the RG of the core compared to the original.. and If I have a core and remove a bunch of weight and mass from the midlane aren't I moving what weight the core has more to the outside which is raising the RG..??
my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 09:48:50 AM
quote:
While the weight of the finger holes coming out of the ball does have an effect, it is not the entirety of the equation.
One thing to remember that's extremely important is the bowlers track style and PAP. With the track and PAP measurements creating a VAL line it gives you the area of the ball where the Pin placement will have the most, or the least amount of effect on overall ball reaction. One thing to remember is that bowlers with a very low track, < 4 over, will end up having drillings that place the pin closer to the fingers and slightly above or slightly below. By drilling the pin further from the fingers on a track that is low or a PAP that is down can give undesired reaction because it does not match up with that bowlers PAP and Track lines. Therefore distance from fingers can't truly be used as a rule of thumb.
Think about it in terms of placement of the core. By looking at the track and val of the bowler you can actually see how the tilt of the core (placement of the pin) will be drastically different. The drilling of the finger holes is just a secondary effect on the ball that results in a balance hole or no balance hole.
It's similar to doing a dual thumb drilling, the secondary thumb hole does not determine the characteristics of the reaction, it can only enhance or moderately effect it. The same is with the fingers. The pin placement with relation to the val and drilling angle determines what the ball will do, then the finger and weight holes will be adjusting differentials and can be changed with deeper drilling holes, balance holes, X-out hole drillings, etc.
For sure.. Pin distance from the PAP is the number 1 factor.. I am just saying the holes fine tune the reaction.. like you said. much the way a weight hole does..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 09:58:11 AM
quote:quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
my point is..
how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 24, 2009, 09:59:39 AM
quote:The orientation of the core changing as the core migrates to the stable position is dependent on the VAL since that's dependent on the ball's position as it rotates down the lane. There are three dimensions to consider when thinking of how the core rotates back to a stable position when it flares -- I'm pretty certain you're oversimplifying it by assuming the pin to PAP distance is the only aspect of the core's location and rotation itself that will affect ball roll.
my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..
Post by: triggerman on April 24, 2009, 10:00:08 AM
quote:quote:quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
my point is..
how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
you are changing core orientation, they will roll different pin dictates core orientation, moving it up down, side to side changes the orientations thus changing dynamics of the ball, as far as how imbalance transfers its engergy even tho they are both 5" to pap, the core sits at a different angle
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Edited on 4/24/2009 10:02 AM
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 10:13:40 AM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
my point is..
how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
you are changing core orientation, they will roll different pin dictates core orientation, moving it up down, side to side changes the orientations thus changing dynamics of the ball, as far as how imbalance transfers its engergy even tho they are both 5" to pap, the core sits at a different angle
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Edited on 4/24/2009 10:02 AM
the pin is still the same distance form the PAP on each "orientation" or placement of the pin.. so the orientation of the core in relation to the Rotation would be the same.. that is what the PAP is.. it is the axis point
So if the pin is 5 inches away from the PAP it is 5 inches away... and the core is in the same relation at all places 5 inches from the PAP..
The core will not sit at a different angle..
say the pin is on the Track.. how will starting the ball with the pin at different locations on the track change how the ball rolls..
or the pin on the PAP.. how will starting the ball with (for this example) the labels in different positions change how the ball reacts...
it won't
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 4/24/2009 10:16 AM
Edited on 4/24/2009 10:17 AM
Post by: triggerman on April 24, 2009, 10:21:10 AM
see below
,,,,o,,,,
...............pap
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap
thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap
because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Post by: JohnP on April 24, 2009, 10:58:55 AM
quote:
the fact that 3 3/8" from the PAP flares the most which makes the ball hook the most and the earliest
3 3/8" pin to PAP does create maximum flare, but not earliest hook. The closer the pin is to the PAP the earlier the ball hooks, so 1" pin to PAP, for example, would hook earlier than 3 3/8". And while max flare does tend to create max hook, it can also result in burn up, making the ball straighten out at the back end of the lane. -- JohnP
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 11:48:20 AM
quote:Quotethe fact that 3 3/8" from the PAP flares the most which makes the ball hook the most and the earliest
3 3/8" pin to PAP does create maximum flare, but not earliest hook. The closer the pin is to the PAP the earlier the ball hooks, so 1" pin to PAP, for example, would hook earlier than 3 3/8". And while max flare does tend to create max hook, it can also result in burn up, making the ball straighten out at the back end of the lane. -- JohnP[/quote
agree'd.. I should have just said max flare = max hook potential..(that may not be entirely true either) earliest was the wrong word to use..
thank you for the correction.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 4/24/2009 11:49 AM
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 11:59:57 AM
quote:
nope, pin moves circular around the pap, even tho it is 5" it moves (based upon where the fingers are going) if you dont ever put any holes in it, you are right, the orientation stays the same, if you were able to lock your pap down and then move the pin around it, you would see the core move, based upon your over simplifying it you are assuming your pap is not locked down,
see below
,,,,o,,,,
...............pap
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap
thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap
because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
yes .. the pin revolves around the pap.. and the pin marks the top of the core.. and the core goes through the middle of the ball(or close to it) to the other side of the ball..
look at a ball and and put a ruler in line with how the core would be sitting.. then rotate the ball around the PAP.. the core orientation in relation to the rotation or PAP will not change.. when you move the pin to different locations say 5" from the PAP all you are doing is rotating the ball about its PAP.. where the pin is at (as long as it is at 5" or some give distance from the PAP) during the release will not affect the ball reaction..
If you visualize the pin on the track.. the opposite side of the core is also on the track on the other side of the ball.. now tell me how if you start the rotation with the pin at different positions on the track how it will change the ball reaction..
It is the same thing for any set distance from the PAP..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 12:18:34 PM
quote:quote:The orientation of the core changing as the core migrates to the stable position is dependent on the VAL since that's dependent on the ball's position as it rotates down the lane. There are three dimensions to consider when thinking of how the core rotates back to a stable position when it flares -- I'm pretty certain you're oversimplifying it by assuming the pin to PAP distance is the only aspect of the core's location and rotation itself that will affect ball roll.
my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..
yes the pin will migrate (actually the axis migrating)or move to a different distance from the PAP during its path down the lane.. but at the start of the rotation at release is what I am talking about.. basically the imaginary layout on the ball... you could put the pin on the opposite side of the through bots hand at 5" from PAP and it would be the same reaction as if the pin was near center grip at 5 inches to PAP..
I don't see how the orientation to the PAP would be any different.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 12:24:41 PM
but at the starting layout is what I am talking about.. which is basically what you are doing when you lay out a drilled bowling ball.. you are laying it out according to the PAP at release..
maybe there is just a misunderstanding in what I am trying to say..
basically how high or how low(for a given distance from PAP) or how close to or far from the VAL (for a given distance from PAP) makes no difference in reaction unless there are holes in the ball..
that basically sums up my position..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: triggerman on April 24, 2009, 12:51:07 PM
quote:quote:
nope, pin moves circular around the pap, even tho it is 5" it moves (based upon where the fingers are going) if you dont ever put any holes in it, you are right, the orientation stays the same, if you were able to lock your pap down and then move the pin around it, you would see the core move, based upon your over simplifying it you are assuming your pap is not locked down,
see below
,,,,o,,,,
...............pap
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap
thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap
because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
yes .. the pin revolves around the pap.. and the pin marks the top of the core.. and the core goes through the middle of the ball(or close to it) to the other side of the ball..
look at a ball and and put a ruler in line with how the core would be sitting.. then rotate the ball around the PAP.. the core orientation in relation to the rotation or PAP will not change.. when you move the pin to different locations say 5" from the PAP all you are doing is rotating the ball about its PAP.. where the pin is at (as long as it is at 5" or some give distance from the PAP) during the release will not affect the ball reaction..
If you visualize the pin on the track.. the opposite side of the core is also on the track on the other side of the ball.. now tell me how if you start the rotation with the pin at different positions on the track how it will change the ball reaction..
It is the same thing for any set distance from the PAP..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
because you have put finger holes in it locking down the pap in a location and now what your are moving is the pin up and down, changing the core orientation
pap is based off your grip center line so you have two variables that lock your pap, when you put a pin in a different location relative to your pap (with finger holes) your core orientation is changed. now if you dont drill holes but lock the ball in a position such thta you had holes the ball would react differently
o...................
..\.................
....\.....pap......
......\............
........\............
5
in to pap.........../
........./..
......./...pap
...../..........
.../
./
o
both still on the track side but core orientation changed, pin to pap distance did not, imagine the slashed lines are the pin going thru the core, now tell me again that the core orientation did not change, the two givens pap is measured from grip center, so your grip center and pap dont change, pap is not just given dimension from the pin, it is measured from your grip center verticle and horizontal line (a fixed spot)
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 01:12:56 PM
take a ball and put it in the position you are talking about.. now rotate it about the pap and put the pin in the other position..(with the same pin to pap distance) the core orientation is that same relation to the PAP no matter where you rotate the ball...
you are basically just looking at the ball from another angle..
another way to look at it.. put the ball on the table..set the pin say 5 inches from that pap.. now look at the ball from the top... now put your eye down level with the table..The pin is in a different spot in relation to the PAP based on where you are veiwing it.. but the core orientation has not changed..
it is just the same thing as rotating it about the PAP..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 01:15:00 PM
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 24, 2009, 01:17:42 PM
Post by: J_w73 on April 24, 2009, 02:12:21 PM
quote:
But the ball isn't sitting still! It's rolling around the PAP, which means it's not a matter of just perspective. That's the thing you're ignoring. Imagine just the core itself rotating around a fixed point (hell, Storm's website has the ability to view a 3D core and rotate it on each ball, I think 900 Global does too?) in a specific direction (let's say 30 degrees of axis rotation and 15 degrees of axis tilt, for example) and this should explain better what everybody but you is trying to say. The core is pointing a certain direction at the start, and it's going to rotate from this position to migrate the top of the core back into the stable position. How the core is angled on the Y coordinate as well as the X coordinate will have an effect on when, where, and how the core migrates back into a stable position.
I understand the pin moves and migrates during its rotation down the lane..I am not talking about that...
I am talking about the pin relation to the VAL in a layout at release.. or on the layout.. the pin doesn't know where it is at in the rotation about the PAP at every point 5 " from the PAP at release... so it isn't the pin being close to a magical VAL line that changes the reaction.. it is the position of the holes in relation to the core that changes the ball reaction..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180