BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: lefty50 on December 07, 2016, 04:57:50 PM
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I hate asymmetric bowling balls. I have never had a single one that reacted well for me, but I am rolling the ball much better these days, and decided it was time to once again try to put an asymmetric piece in my bag to get a different look than what I have now. (I'm a lefty by the way, can you tell fomr the name?)...
I recently threw a friend's highly touted new asymmetric release (he's right handed). I will not name the ball, because this question has nothing to do with the ball itself, seriously. Every asymmetric I have ever thrown does exactly the same thing: it lopes down the lane, makes a labored turn, and refuses to drive through the pins. I have also been told that asymmetric balls are picky, and must be drilled correctly. That was in the same conversation where I was guaranteed that using an asymmetric right handed ball would yield a valid assessment, although not perfect.
My PAP is 5x1.5 up. This ball was drilled right handed, ping over ring and MB 1 inch to the right of the thumb.
The ball, predictably, puked and puked badly. It looked EXACTLY like every asym I've ever thrown. The question I need ask is this: either throwing a right-handed asymmetric ball for a left-hander is totally ridiculous and the test is completely invalid, even though it reacted just like every other asymmetric I have ever thrown, or it is true that I should have been able to get a decent read on the ball, which puts us back into the I don't like asymmetric category.
I realize this question is a bit circuitous and I hope it makes appropriate sense, but can I trust this test or not?
Feedback appreciated as always.
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I hate asymmetric bowling balls. I have never had a single one that reacted well for me, but I am rolling the ball much better these days, and decided it was time to once again try to put an asymmetric piece in my bag to get a different look than what I have now. (I'm a lefty by the way, can you tell fomr the name?)...
I recently threw a friend's highly touted new asymmetric release (he's right handed). I will not name the ball, because this question has nothing to do with the ball itself, seriously. Every asymmetric I have ever thrown does exactly the same thing: it lopes down the lane, makes a labored turn, and refuses to drive through the pins. I have also been told that asymmetric balls are picky, and must be drilled correctly. That was in the same conversation where I was guaranteed that using an asymmetric right handed ball would yield a valid assessment, although not perfect.
My PAP is 5x1.5 up. This ball was drilled right handed, ping over ring and MB 1 inch to the right of the thumb.
The ball, predictably, puked and puked badly. It looked EXACTLY like every asym I've ever thrown. The question I need ask is this: either throwing a right-handed asymmetric ball for a left-hander is totally ridiculous and the test is completely invalid, even though it reacted just like every other asymmetric I have ever thrown, or it is true that I should have been able to get a decent read on the ball, which puts us back into the I don't like asymmetric category.
I realize this question is a bit circuitous and I hope it makes appropriate sense, but can I trust this test or not?
Feedback appreciated as always.
What I have noticed when rolling asymmetricals; is that they want to roll more forward at the breakpoint whereas symmetricals can go more sideways depending on the rg and diff numbers. Asymmetricals for me tend to work best when the lanes are playing tight and I can square up in the track area. I always have issues with continuation playing deeper than 18-20 at the arrows. The balls lack entry angle and I wrap ten pins more than Christmas presents in December.
The fact you took a ball probably pin of 6.5 inches from your PAP and a horrible mass bias placement for you I am sure had everything to do with the ball rolling like a turd.
What I would suggest.....is if you wanted to try an asymmetrical again; get one with a low intermediate differential because you can drill the ball with a symmetrical layout and be fine. Find a ball with an intermediate diff of less than .008. Once you get to .010 and higher, thats when I see the ball roll more forward at the breakpoint and not so much sideways.
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Do you have any symmetric core bowling balls with a flare increasing weight hole? How are they drilled?
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Yes, almost everything I have is symmetric with a flare increasing hole around P3-P4. Pin is usually above ring or in the middle, with Cg kicked out at 45 minimum.
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Yes, almost everything I have is symmetric with a flare increasing hole around P3-P4. Pin is usually above ring or in the middle, with Cg kicked out at 45 minimum.
Are most of your current symmetric equipment strong balls or on the medium-lighter condition side?
With strong asymmetric cores pin-pap distance is opposite of symmetric cores: Symmetrical retain axis tilt/rotation more as you move farther than 3.375 from your PAP. Strong asymmetric (I.e bigger than .010 int diff) burn tilt faster at longer distances and retains more the closer you get to 2.5" from your PAP.
If you want to experiment with an asymmetric ball, I'd suggest going with a shorter pin-PAP distance like 2.5-3.5" and a bigger VAL angle so the ball doesn't roll forward as quickly
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I don't know if this does anything for you, but my Sinister rolls better for me than any ball ever has when I throw right handed. If I throw it left handed (roughly same specs, only flipped, it rolls like doggy turds. It rolls even worse if I throw a backup ball
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With strong asymmetric cores pin-pap distance is opposite of symmetric cores: Symmetrical retain axis tilt/rotation more as you move farther than 3.375 from your PAP. Strong asymmetric (I.e bigger than .010 int diff) burn tilt faster at longer distances and retains more the closer you get to 2.5" from your PAP.
This is kind of dated information. Most recently, with the release of the FIX, Mo Pinel of all people even indicated balls with int diffs lower than .015 (after drilling) exhibit motion characteristics of a symmetrical ball. This is a pretty large category of Asyms, as a good amount of them are under that threshold. Now, not saying the drilling can't drastically increase that and make the ball exhibit very strong asymmetric characteristics.
As to the OP's question, I don't think it was a valid test. But I also think it is important to know what the ball was as there are many variables with Asymmetric balls. It matters less because the layout is not ideal for sure, with the MB being right of the thumb and PAP 5" over, your drill angle would likely exceed 90-100 degrees which would create a extremely long skid phase, which is probably why the ball did nothing as it just blew right through the breakpoint. Frankly, there are just too many questions unanswered (rev rate, tilt, rotation, ball specs, lane condition, etc. etc.) to determine why asyms don't roll well for you. I can assure you though, it's a combination of things such as wrong ball/wrong layout/wrong SURFACE that are creating your dis-taste for these types of balls.
The thing about ASYM balls is they are typically top tier balls with strong covers to match their powerful weight blocks. Regardless of layout, most high end asyms coverstocks require a good amount of oil to avoid early hook. ASYMs transition faster when they encounter friction, and people tend to believe that means "more backend" but they transition faster when they hit any type of friction which could be anywhere on the lanes, especially in the fronts, or middle parts of the lane, resulting in less than desirable reaction down lane.
In summary, this is why symmetricals are widely considered much more "user friendly" in general.
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+1
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There are so many things to consider: How were the other asyms drilled? Ball specs (Rg, Diff, Int Diff)? Coverstock (solid, Pearl, hybrid)? Surface prep? Oil pattern?
It sounds to me that the balls were burning up early so there is nothing left down lane. They need oil to be truly effective. Maybe try a pearl or hybrid with a 4"x4"X1" or 5"x4"x3" layout.
If you do your homework and speak with your PSO I'm sure you could find an asym that works for you. Try a DV8 Vandall or Storm Code Black. I love the Vandall, great length, midlane read, hitting power, continuation.
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I hate asymmetric bowling balls.
You have obviously have never had one drilled correctly for your PAP, rev rate, ball speed, with the correct surface for the oil conditions on which you ar bowling. Yes, they are trickier to drill than symmetrics, but they are not impossible. Someone ss doing you wrong, if you haven't found a good reaction for you. Because yo usually use stronger balls, asymmetrics are made for you.
I recently threw a friend's highly touted new asymmetric release (he's right handed). I will not name the ball, because this question has nothing to do with the ball itself, seriously. Every asymmetric I have ever thrown does exactly the same thing: it lopes down the lane, makes a labored turn, and refuses to drive through the pins. I have also been told that asymmetric balls are picky,
They are not picky; they just need more and SPECIFIC bowler's delivery information before they can be drilled properly. Its science, not magic. I repeat, it is science, knowledge and little bit craft an tiny bit iof imagination. BUT it is NOT rocket science.
and must be drilled correctly. That was in the same conversation where I was guaranteed that using an asymmetric right handed ball would yield a valid assessment, although not perfect.
Horse manure! Whoever told you that is a Snake-oil salesman or your enemy or an ignoramus. But he ain't a driller.
My PAP is 5x1.5 up. This ball was drilled right handed, ping over ring and MB 1 inch to the right of the thumb.
Ok, time for clarification since no one else here asked for it; I will:
Was it pin over YOUR ring or over the righty's ring?
Was it MB 1" right of his thumb or your thumb?
Without this info, you're talking about a "pig in a poke".
The ball, predictably, puked and puked badly. It looked EXACTLY like every asym I've ever thrown. The question I need ask is this: either throwing a right-handed asymmetric ball for a left-hander is totally ridiculous and the test is completely invalid, even though it reacted just like every other asymmetric I have ever thrown, or it is true that I should have been able to get a decent read on the ball, which puts us back into the I don't like asymmetric category.
I realize this question is a bit circuitous and I hope it makes appropriate sense, but can I trust this test or not?
Feedback appreciated as always.
Your PAP of 1.5" up "USUALLY" indicates a spinner type of release. An acquaintance of many years ago had a PAP like that and he had many screwed up drillings that 17 different drillers gave hm. I am no driller, but have had some experience diagnosing different drillings, especially bad ones on asymmetric cored balls.
(I really, really wish one or more of our experienced drillers would be doing this; but if no one steps up and helps Lefty, I'll do my best.)
FYI In general, asymmetrics can be drilled to do almost anything, if drilled correctly. They can be flippy or very controlled. There is no "every asymmetric is always controlled for me". If so, your driller is still not doing it right. Once drilled for one type of reaction, most asymmetrics will not be forced into changing its reaction due to hand release changes or ball speed changes. Symmetrics, once drilled, can be made to change their reaction by hand changes and speed changes. That is a major difference in these cores.
PLUS Asymmetrics are best used by people, who are on the more consistent side with respect to speed and release.
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You have obviously have never had one drilled correctly for your PAP, rev rate, ball speed, with the correct surface for the oil conditions on which you ar bowling. Yes, they are trickier to drill than symmetrics, but they are not impossible. Someone ss doing you wrong, if you haven't found a good reaction for you. Because yo usually use stronger balls, asymmetrics are made for you
That's pretty much the point of why I think it had to be an invalid test. You can't say "tricky to drill" and "this will be close enough" in the same sentence.
Ok, time for clarification since no one else here asked for it; I will:
Was it pin over YOUR ring or over the righty's ring?
Was it MB 1" right of his thumb or your thumb?
righty spec - pin over righty ring, MB right of thumb
There are so many things to consider: How were the other asyms drilled? Ball specs (Rg, Diff, Int Diff)? Coverstock (solid, Pearl, hybrid)? Surface prep? Oil pattern?
The asyms over the years have been drilled in many different ways, but (I believe) always with an inaccurate PAP as a base. - This ball was a pearl.
I don't know if this does anything for you, but my Sinister rolls better for me than any ball ever has when I throw right handed. If I throw it left handed (roughly same specs, only flipped, it rolls like doggy turds. It rolls even worse if I throw a backup bal
Personally, I absolutely agree and think that's the answer - invalid test.
I truly appreciate all the feedback. I'm going to conclude the test was invalid, asyms are tougher to drill, and none of the balls I've owned that were asyms (6 so far) were drilled really in line with what was needed, which is why they all act in the same bad way. I do however still think it's valid to say that to many people, myself included, and for multiple of the reasons indicated in these replies, asyms can be an expensive disappointment.
I'll ask a follow-up question... What about balls drilled theoretically in the middle for demo days style events... Valid for left hand testing?
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You're a lefty, but the ball was laid out for a righty? If I understand the situation (I've read quickly) then INVALID test in my opinion.
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Yes, it was laid out for a righty. Looking at it as a RIGHT handed layout it was pin just over ring and MB approx 1 inch right of thumb.
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Yes, it was laid out for a righty. Looking at it as a RIGHT handed layout it was pin just over ring and MB approx 1 inch right of thumb.
For a righty (and the lefty equivalent), the drill you described above is a fairly "standard" asymmetric drill. It's a safe pattern and works well for a wide range of bowlers. You'll see rough approximations of that pattern (pin between the center grip line and ring, MB in the strong position) on the majority of asymmetric balls on the racks.
If you've had that pattern on any of your previous asymmetric balls, and you couldn't get at least a decent reaction, there is something going on with your release that needs to be assessed in person. Has anyone ever provided an in person assessment to you?
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Steven, I'm thinking maybe you missed the first part, or perhaps I am misunderstanding. Apologies if that's the case. The drill may be standard for righties, and there may be a lefty equivalent, but when a lefty throws the right hand drill, is that a valid test? I think not, looking for feedback on that question...
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Steven, I'm thinking maybe you missed the first part, or perhaps I am misunderstanding. Apologies if that's the case. The drill may be standard for righties, and there may be a lefty equivalent, but when a lefty throws the right hand drill, is that a valid test? I think not, looking for feedback on that question...
While it depends on the drilling, in the 99% case, it will never be a valid test, Steve.
a minimum, the MB being to the right of the thumb hole for a righty would put it near the track for a lefty. That position reduces the backend significantly. In your case a lower rev bowler, it might eliminate it altogether, depending on the original PSA/MB strength. The pin, being over the ring finger for a righty, would be over the middle finger for a lefty, would make the pin-PAP around 6"; that usually results in a more end-over-end ball movement at the breakpoint. That is usually good for playing an outside line, but for an asymmetric, it is still a very high flaring drilling. These are just in general. Are these the factors you need, personally??
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Correct. I'm quite comfortable concluding it was an invalid test. Now, if I take into consideration that the MB position should reduce backend, then it gets intriguing. But that's a story for another day.
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I'm not totally sure what you are trying to achieve at this point other than debunk for yourself the generalization that "asyms don't work for you". Maybe just to feel like you aren't limited in selection?
It's all fine but let me throw in my 2 cents...
1. You should always have a knowledgeable and experienced ball driller who knows your game
2. Yes Asyms are a little more tricky to drill but not so much so that it should be so difficult for an experienced driller to get it right for you
3. More so than being tricky to drill, I think asymmetrics are simply more condition specific than symmetrics.
Asyms tend to have a more defined move at the breakpoint and that may be advantageous in certain conditions (heavier, etc.), that can be a major disadvantage in other conditions because they also stand up more and can puke at the pins.
So if you are constantly seeing conditions where the balls have rolled out and aren't as smooth at the breakpoint, you will always see the same reaction. Then you'll come across a condition where you will swear the asym is magic.
In the end, it's not you. Asyms are simply more condition specific and if you don't bowl on the matching condition, asyms might always seem like crap for you.
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Steven, I'm thinking maybe you missed the first part, or perhaps I am misunderstanding. Apologies if that's the case. The drill may be standard for righties, and there may be a lefty equivalent, but when a lefty throws the right hand drill, is that a valid test? I think not, looking for feedback on that question...
Yea, I guess I didn't make myself clear.
I was essentially asking if you ever had the left handed equivalent to the drill on your friend's ball on any of the asymmetrical balls you previously owned. That pattern is pretty vanilla, and most styles should at least be able to throw it decent.
To your original question, the test is invalid. Being a right handed ball, for you the MB is in the weak position, and you have a long pin to PAP. Unless you throw 400-500 RPM's, you're going to see a puke reaction.
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Steven, I can't really say with certainty that I've had the equivalent left hand drill. I've tried several different drills on the 6 asyms I've hated over the years, but no guarantees. The closest I've had to a drill that didn't roll over and die was pin under ring, MB kicked out 45 degrees. I remember from testing that the further out I put the MB, the better I "liked" it, although nothing entered the actual realm of like. I remember an old Track Mutant that would go 35-40 feet, make a violent right hand turn, and die... That's always stuck with me for some reason. These years I take down all measurements and take a picture and save it in an archive, but I didn't back then.
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Asyms are not too much of an anomaly. They are bigger cored, shorter hook zoned, mostly fast response balls. Very few are symmetric like in nature where they can corner and cover boards. They're to be used when you chase in or you need the ball to respond faster. It sounds to me like you don't have a lot of volume, so an Asym with a much shorter hook zone will start to hook in the heads and then roll out by the time it reaches the exit point of the pattern.
As a lefty myself, I have the same issue with Asyms as there just isn't enough volume to use them. I have to wait for mild Asyms(i.e. DV8 Vandal[Very good ball btw]) or weaker shells like the Code Black (another very good ball). Other than that, drilling them is key. I use either Big VAL angles(pin down or in rf) or short pin PAP(3" or less) and drill the MB in the thumb to lengthen the hook zone so the ball reads more like a Symmetrical. I drill most of my Asyms pin down but there are a few balls that have rolled really well with the MB in thumb.
The most successful is a Radical Black Reax (85x3 3/4x45, MB in thumb, pin above the rf) that rolled phenomenally but sadly cracked. I haven't wanted to really drill another asym yet but when I do, that layout will go into it.
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Yes, almost everything I have is symmetric with a flare increasing hole around P3-P4. Pin is usually above ring or in the middle, with Cg kicked out at 45 minimum.
Most newer asymmetric bowling balls aren't nearly as strong Int Diff wise as we saw a few years ago. Most manufactures keep the Int Diff on their stuff at .020 or less these days. Int diff of .008 or higher is considered asymmetric. Go look at the specs on any brands asymmetric core stuff and see.
With you having several bowling balls drilled pin up and with flare increasing weight holes that makes their finished core numbers every bit as asymmetric as almost any ball on the market these days.. You can easily get int diffs on symmetric core bowling balls in the .020 range or higher with these layouts. Something to consider