Post by: Doug Sterner on February 10, 2010, 10:46:22 AM
For the Pro Shop Guys....2 questions
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?
2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?
Don't we realize that when we do #1 and combine it with #2 that there is a 90% chance that the ball isn't going to work? Honestly...look at the heavy hooking balls that we see for sale on this site....90% are drilled stacked with the pin in the ballpark of 3-4" off the PAP...why?
Now for the customers...very simple...
Why don't you all trust your pro shop guy to put you in the ball you NEED instead of the ball you THINK YOU WANT? Then why do you tell him to "drill it to hook!" ?
I am simply baffled at the number of heavy hooking balls I see for sale here drilled for max hook and usually they are dulled up to look like 220 grit!
Why???
Help me out here guys!!!!
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Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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Post by: Locke on February 10, 2010, 06:49:12 PM
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They call me the thread killer...
Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it
The Cell Pimp
Post by: polaris1050 on February 10, 2010, 06:56:55 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 10, 2010, 07:00:19 PM
while "hook = good" what does roll out =???
Mean seriously.....Percy Pussknuckler buys a max stack Storm Invasion drilled 4x4 box finish and throws the ball up the 10 board...guess what happens? The ball starts up then loses axis rotation and hits like a pillow.
Then guess what? "This ball is a POS...it doesn''t hook more than my yellow dot. You sold me a $200 10 pin ball."
polaris...I totally agree. I just want to know why we as consumers do this and why the pro shop guys cave into the customer?
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Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Edited on 2/10/2010 8:02 PM
Post by: DanH78 on February 10, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
Because the customer is always right. I've seen it happen plenty of times, THB comes in, asks for latest hooking ball.
THB: I want HOOK MONSTER
Pro Shop: Ya know, I really think this medium ball would be better
THB: Nope, I want HOOK MONSTER
If the pro shop guy doesn't sell it, THB will just go down the street to the other pro shop that will.
As far as the bowlers go...well, I don't know. If you figure it out, let me know. A couple weeks ago, a guy on my team asked me about a new ball. I gave him 3-4 choices. All were medium/pearls. A guy that works in the pro shop was throwing a Jigsaw Corner that nite and my team mate asked me about it. I said it was too aggressive for what he wanted. The pro shop guy said it was too aggressive for what he wanted. Well the pro shop proceeded to shoot 700 (Because he's freakin good) so of course my team mate had to go out and by a Jigsaw Corner. Next week he barely broke 500 (He averages 208). I've stopped trying with some people, they refuse to understand that a bowling ball only has so much energy, and sometimes, the reason it's not hooking isn't because they need a stronger ball, but because the ball is too strong and is burned up by 20 feet.
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It IS next year!
Post by: charlest on February 10, 2010, 07:09:21 PM
IMHO
1. because most bowlers think they know better than the pro shop.
1A. There are too many "PRO" shops out there who don''t know what they are doing and too many bowlers have had problems with their recommendations. Doug, most people are not like you or many of the good drillers who have posted here.
2. Because that is the only drilling they know. They think that maxing out the ball''s total possible reaction is the way to drill balls because they''re still stuck in the 1970s.
3. They see bowlers using these expensive balls on TV and in other leagues, in other houses and have no idea that the oil pattern and the way people bowl and the way a ball is drilled can affect the ball''s usage.
4. Have you ever tried to talk a bowler out a ball and lost a sale? (I know you have.) Good pro shops, with honest drillers can only do so much. I know my driller has tried to talk people to "down" a ball. Sometimes they listen. Sometimes they think they know better. (Sometimes I try, if only when they seem doubtful about what he told them.) "The customer is always right."
It all comes down to "Ignorance is Bliss."
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 2/10/2010 8:10 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 10, 2010, 07:14:46 PM
They told me they heard the BH is the heaviest hooking ball in the market right now so that means it hooks the most right?
I don't stock anything in the shop that's over $150 drilled. Especially with the tight economic times we are seeing right now, why do the bowlers want to spend that extra $50 on a ball that will just give them more frustration?
IMO I don't see the need for a ball that hooks more than a Diamondback or Furious. Do we need more backend than a Fast or a Reign?
I mean seriously folks....
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: Doug Sterner on February 10, 2010, 07:18:49 PM
this is exactly what Storm and Turbo have teamed up to try and combat. Their Try It Before You Buy It program gives the bowler the chance to try the ball before they buy one.
I think I am going to try and get a similar program to this going over the summer.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: Goof1073 on February 10, 2010, 07:25:49 PM
quote:Bingo!!!
4. Have you ever tried to talk a bowler out a ball and lost a sale? (I know you have.) Good pro shops, with honest drillers can only do so much. I know my driller has tried to talk people to "down" a ball. Sometimes they listen. Sometimes they think they know better. (Sometimes I try, if only when they seem doubtful about what he told them.) "The customer is always right."
So many times I've seen people come in wanting a particular ball, not because of its reaction...but because it's new and a high end ball.
I also can't tell you how many times I've heard why is my high hook ball being out hooked by a low end pearl. Ugh...
...for me it's about educating customers to help them make better choices for themselves and understanding ball reaction and why the above happens.
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-Chris: DJ's Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
Post by: charlest on February 10, 2010, 07:32:10 PM
quote:quote:Bingo!!!
4. Have you ever tried to talk a bowler out a ball and lost a sale? (I know you have.) Good pro shops, with honest drillers can only do so much. I know my driller has tried to talk people to "down" a ball. Sometimes they listen. Sometimes they think they know better. (Sometimes I try, if only when they seem doubtful about what he told them.) "The customer is always right."
So many times I''ve seen people come in wanting a particular ball, not because of its reaction...but because it''s new and a high end ball.
I also can''t tell you how many times I''ve heard why is my high hook ball being out hooked by a low end pearl. Ugh...
Them Chris, you have all the ammunition and all the reason in the world to tell them,
"Because, you IDIOT, you didn''t listen to me!!!"
but, you won''t cause you''re too polite, just like Doug. But you want to, don''t you?
quote:
...for me it''s about educating customers to help them make better choices for themselves and understanding ball reaction and why the above happens.
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-Chris: DJ''s Pro Shop : Auburn, MA
The student only learns who wants to learn. Teachers learn that bitter lesson sometime near the end of their first year of teaching children. With adults, sadly, it takes a little longer. Check out my signature block. It''s not there for nothing.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 2/10/2010 8:32 PM
Post by: Mike Austin on February 10, 2010, 09:59:55 PM
2. Still probably wouldn't.
I sure would explain myself, try to educate them as to why the hook monster might be a dud. Man I sold a butt load of Tropical Storms to people bowling at a known dry house, many to people that went and bought the hook monster somewhere else because I recommended the Trop Storm. Ya know what, I was thrilled, I made more money on Trop Storms than I did on hook monsters! Bring em on!
Dan, charlest, others have said it. People just don't know. Watching ball videos on the internet does not translate to the lane conditions they see. Ultimately, the hack is an adult, and will get what he wants regardless. The tough economic times make it harder to send them on their way without a sale.
Doug, don't worry, you got the right idea/are doing the right thing! Carry on my man!!
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Check out my blog:
www.strikes4days.blogspot.com
Post by: BBU on February 10, 2010, 10:08:43 PM
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Its Hammer Time!!
HammerHead 4 Life
Post by: stormed1 on February 10, 2010, 11:46:47 PM
As far as drilling a ball stacked leverage i would say it's been at least 10 years since i have done a stacked drilling
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Arsenal: Mega Friction,Break Point x 2, Break,Clutch,Maniac,Awakening,Lunatic,Heist Pearl,SX-1,Link,Hype urethane,Global Globe, 14# golden globe
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Bowlingboards.com
Post by: agroves on February 11, 2010, 08:35:03 AM
The best idea is find out where the individual bowls league.
quote:
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?
This is where discussing a purchase and having them throw a few shots is beneficial. You know that.
quote:
2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?
Not often.
I just started a monthly newsletter than covers core numbers and coverstocks with recommendations for each style based on speed and rev rate.
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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here's the problem with any retail service - You can't fix stupid."
Post by: Sir Bowl-A-Lot on February 11, 2010, 08:40:40 AM
Post by: JohnP on February 11, 2010, 10:16:18 AM
Post by: chatnboy on February 11, 2010, 02:25:35 PM
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Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!
Post by: Jay on February 12, 2010, 02:16:00 AM
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Justin
Post by: tenpinspro on February 12, 2010, 02:28:45 AM
This also follows along the path of "What would you like the ball to do?"
Ans: Go long, hook hard (on all conditions, including heavy oil)
or"Drill it strong". When questioned, strong early, strong mid lane or strong backend?
Ans: No, just strong...my response?..."uncle".
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion
Edited on 2/12/2010 3:55 AM
Post by: milorafferty on February 12, 2010, 04:32:37 PM
As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.
As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.
Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.
My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"
I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.
Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
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Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!
Post by: Mike Austin on February 12, 2010, 07:00:16 PM
quote:
Being a somewhat new bowler, I think I can give you a good answer. I joined a league and bowled for the first time in January 2008.
As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.
As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.
Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.
My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"
I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.
Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
--------------------
Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!
Milo, you are a very quick learner and obviously an intelligent person. Unfortunately, there are not many like you, and your comments hit a couple nails right on the head.
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Check out my blog:
www.strikes4days.blogspot.com
Post by: FBM357 on February 12, 2010, 08:59:52 PM
quote:
Being a somewhat new bowler, I think I can give you a good answer. I joined a league and bowled for the first time in January 2008.
As a new bowler, I was very impressed by the high average bowlers in our mixed handicap league. They all seemed to throw the big hooking ball, which of course, I could not do. At the time, I didn't realize these guys weren't the top bowlers in the area, just the ones who wanted to be the "Big Fish in the little pond". I didn't know the good bowlers were in the Classic Scratch leagues. Nor did I know that Scratch leagues even existed, and forget about the Sport Patterns.
As I learned a bit of control with my Ebonite Tornado, I started reading more about bowling and paying attention to the advertising in the various bowling magazines. The ads all talk about how much hook the ball of the month has. Hook rating is always a huge selling point on the balls getting the most "Buzz" as everyone talks about the newest, most advertised, biggest hook monster available. So what did I do? I went on some web sites and found myself the biggest hook monster I could get. Bowlingball.com has their perfect scale, so I got the highest number at the time. A Bruinswick Fury which was a 217 or something. Since I had no hand and threw the ball with muscle, it gave me my first 200 game. This caused several other bowlers to do pretty much the same thing, go buy a big hooking ball.
Why don't we listen to the proshop guys? Simple, the "better bowlers" in the leagues we bowl in are always coaching. We learn pretty fast that they don't know squat about bowling, except that they have figured out a way to make their way to work for them. And every "coach" has a different solution. Faster feet, slower feet, bend your knee, don't dip your shoulder, throw harder, don't throw as hard etc, etc. At some point, you just stop listening to anyone who tries to tell you what you need to do. Even if it is the proshop guy who does have the knowledge to help you.
My suggestion would be to have the current hot ball on hand and then something on the lower end of the scale. Don't tell them, SHOW them that you can hook the lower end ball. As my first actual coach said when she saw that I had the Fury and ask how it worked for me, "It's not the Arrow, it's the Archer"
I currently use a Lane Masters Buzz Attack, with a very high polished finish and a Columbia 300 Freeze. I also carry a Lane Masters Hornet which gets used quite often. Why no heavy oiler? I rarely bowl in the conditions for that as I have learned. The only time I use my Virtual Energy is for the PBA leagues.
Just my perspective on this, but since I have been one of the bowlers who only wanted the biggest hooking ball I could buy, this might help you proshop owners understand where we are coming from. We are ignorant, not stupid. Well, some of us anyway. :-)
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Nine in the pit with the Tenpin left standing. dooooh!!
Very well stated!!!!
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 12, 2010, 10:36:33 PM
There is an older left hander in our house that has been using a Storm agent and a MoRich N'Tense LevRG. The balls both hook up pretty hard and he spends a lot of time on the nose. He shows up this week with a new ball....Storm Invasion. Why??? I asked...he said that the pro shop where he goes (his son in law works there) just got them in and "it's one of the best balls out there right now." So he got one....
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: jodyk24 on February 12, 2010, 10:43:16 PM
jodyk24
Edited on 2/12/2010 11:52 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 18, 2010, 06:56:15 PM
I''m left handed and just bowl a bit anymore.
But down on the oilier lanes I see in Florida I''ve been bowling nicely throwing some real strong stuff. Now of course my head oil stays longer than for righties in league but getting in deep on a league crown with a nice strong No Mercy Beatn has been fun lately.
I remember once talking to Chad Murphy of Columbia a while back in describing a shot and ball to play on a strong hooking top hat he told me the super strong reaction Roll should make it easy for me AS long as I got my feet and the ball INSIDE the oil ! He was right!
I don''t know why strong DOESN''t work! Maybe it''s the right side! Maybe it''s the area of the country you guys are in???
???
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Edited on 2/18/2010 8:16 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 18, 2010, 10:29:04 PM
This video looks a lot like just what I am seeing. Lots of area on a crown with these powerhouse balls!
Note bowler #3 down on this page of Full Swing videos!
Area! and Carry! (http://"http://www.videoballreviews.com/fullswing.html")
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: TheFreeAgent on February 19, 2010, 07:17:01 AM
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REFS: MrEddie(BBE), notsohotshot(BR), akanayte(UTA)
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 19, 2010, 10:08:23 PM
heavy oil ball and big hooking ball
Many assume that since the ball will be effective in heavy oil that will mean that it will jusut hook the entire lane on medium oil.
We all know that this is not always the case...many times it will work as such but not always.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: LotsaBalls on February 19, 2010, 10:35:53 PM
Post by: coco3085 on February 22, 2010, 08:44:50 PM
Oh yeah, and lanes count for alot. learn what you bowl on, and how that effects your purchase
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201 league average 2 leagues
break point pearl
Mutant cell
Magic action
Cherry vibe
14lb agent-first ball I ever owned
skull and cross bones
rogue cell- not my thing
Post by: qstick777 on February 23, 2010, 06:02:27 AM
1 guy will just come out and tell you "you don't need that ball. It's too aggressive. I'll sell it to you if that's what you want, but I don't think you'll be happy with it."
He doesn't stock many balls, and what he does stock are the latest and greatest "high end" balls. And he sells a lot of these "hook monsters."
And most of his drillings are either label or stacked.
The other guy will basically tell you the same thing. He'll ask which house and league you're bowling in. He also stocks most of the current releases and won't hesitate to recommend a lower end ball, and he'll tell you why he thinks a different ball would be better. But like the first, I'm sure he'll sell you whatever ball you want to buy!
He'll also tell you that part of the problem is internet sites like this. People go to ballreviews and see a video or read a review about how great or strong a ball is and suddenly they think they are an expert about the balls and drillings. They don't have a clue how the other person bowls, or what conditions they see. They get the ball and throw it and it's horrible because they don't put any oil down and they'd have gotten a better reaction buying an entry level or mid priced ball.
^^^^ that's an approximate quote.
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 23, 2010, 10:15:56 PM
If the customer wants a specific ball then I'll do the same thing your 2 shops do...I'll sell them what they want but I will tell them that I think it's a bad choice.
In the end I guess the customer is always right but that begs the other questions.....
why do we as bowlers see the need to buy the latest and greatest hook monster when they are continuously getting their rear ends handed to them by guys throwing cheaper and less aggressive equipment?
Granted I did just drill up a Mission for myself but I had to try one for myself...I want to see if the Ebo-hype holds up...afterall as a pro shop guy that's my job....yes???
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: Billy Ray on February 24, 2010, 08:49:33 AM
quote:
Now I am not professing to be a genius here or even a really smart guy but I have a serious question for both the pro shop guys out here and also the bowlers...
For the Pro Shop Guys....2 questions
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?
2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?
Don't we realize that when we do #1 and combine it with #2 that there is a 90% chance that the ball isn't going to work? Honestly...look at the heavy hooking balls that we see for sale on this site....90% are drilled stacked with the pin in the ballpark of 3-4" off the PAP...why?
Now for the customers...very simple...
Why don't you all trust your pro shop guy to put you in the ball you NEED instead of the ball you THINK YOU WANT? Then why do you tell him to "drill it to hook!" ?
I am simply baffled at the number of heavy hooking balls I see for sale here drilled for max hook and usually they are dulled up to look like 220 grit!
Why???
Help me out here guys!!!!
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Doug,
I am not the typical Pro Shop guy I guess.
I Refuse to Sell a guy a ball if there is a chance he will bad mouth my shop or me if the ball, against all my pleading and begging doesnt work. I used to just punch it up and send them on their way with the way they wanted it drilled but no more! Infact I do something radically different.
Here is what I do:
A guy comes in and says I want Ball X because its the hookingest ball and newest ball on the market. I take him to the lanes and watch him bowl with his 5+ year old ball where he averages 205ish in our house. I ask him why he wants Ball X? He says its the hookingest and newest. I tell him what if I can out him in a ball that gives him everything he wants, more hook and more hit but Save him $50? HE's obviously skeptical because he did his homework on the internet. So I sweeten the deal. If you buy the ball I think you should have and I lay it out properly and drill it, I will show you how to throw it to take full advantage of the ball and its technology, If you dont love it, I will eat it and I will give you 100% of your money back towards the purchase of the ball you originally wanted and drill it how you wanted.
I have never eaten a ball!!!
--------------------
Billy Ray
Track Pro Staff
Owner Rays Pro Shop
At The Playdium
"Let Us Help You Become More Competitive"
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 24, 2010, 09:10:26 AM
As you prescribed for me on a condition that killed me the best fit I had on this brutal shot(it was a weak drilling on stronger than average ball that made the pattern....easy!)
However on the left in Wet Florida I see many of our lefties using stuff drilled too weak(ie for low volume patterns) when they could own the top HAT!
As a result of using their weakly drilled tourney stuff they are converting area shots to single board shots! The opposite can happen can't it?
As in these cases.
Billy Ray please chime in!
Regards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Billy Ray on February 24, 2010, 02:04:52 PM
quote:
Billy Ray...I KNOW you are one of the smartest guys on here!
As you prescribed for me on a condition that killed me the best fit I had on this brutal shot(it was a weak drilling on stronger than average ball that made the pattern....easy!)
However on the left in Wet Florida I see many of our lefties using stuff drilled too weak(ie for low volume patterns) when they could own the top HAT!
As a result of using their weakly drilled tourney stuff they are converting area shots to single board shots! The opposite can happen can't it?
As in these cases.
Billy Ray please chime in!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
The biggest problem with Lefthanders is that they seldom see Transition. On leagues, if the pattern is symetrical right to left, is that the pattern develops/breaks down at a hugely different pace.
So to combat this many lefties think they need to stay closer to the twig (gutter) to remain competitive and drill weaker equipment to allow them to stay in the burn. When in actuality if they have a decent rev rate they are giving up the ability to create more area by using a stronger ball and moving inside to develop their own area. This obviously does not apply as much to guys with low rev rates or that have no inside game. For these guys to move in a take advantage of no or little transition they would have to use some different layouts and surfaces to accomplish what I am talking about. But for most lefties I know,(and I hate most of them LOL, Inside Joke) like to stay in their comfort zone and play down the boards. As a Pro Shop guy I have taken many lefties and righties for that matter and shown them how to play the lanes and to take advantage of their abilities. The modern balls break down a lane so much differently than the balls of the past and some of these guys are stuck in the 90's with their releases and thinking. If you change their minds you will change their games.
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Billy Ray
Track Pro Staff
Owner Rays Pro Shop
At The Playdium
"Let Us Help You Become More Competitive"
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 24, 2010, 02:47:20 PM
I have done similar things over the years with a few customers. I basically said "here, I'll drill you the ball I think will work for you. When it does work, give me $xx.xx (which that price is ALWAYS less than advertised retail). If it doesn't work out for you, you don't owe me anything.. How's that?"
Amazingly I have had only 3-4 people over the last 5 years take me up on it....
Go figure.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: LuckyLefty on February 25, 2010, 11:07:55 PM
I think a lot of the comments above are regarding bowlers on either side staying straight up 10 and having to go to weaker equipement or weaker drilled equipment to play these lines which maybe should be abandoned..
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: kcbruns300 on February 26, 2010, 12:21:00 AM
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Brunswick Pro Shop Staff Member
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Bowler's Connection Pro Shop
Post by: TDC57 on February 26, 2010, 12:30:43 AM
Post by: Bigmike on February 26, 2010, 06:37:29 AM
We do it for all of the brands that will send us the balls. Our store is Roto STAR and Storm VIP so their sales rep sends us stuff to drill. One of our owners is a Columbia staffer, so he gets freebies to drill and we usually get one each of the Hammer/Track/Ebo brands to drill.
I let a guy try out the Jigsaw Corner the other night during his league and he had a 7 bagger and didn't want to give it back. One of the guys in his league does some work/lessons thru us and has a key to the store so he returned it when this customer finished his league set. The very next day this guy was sitting in front of the store 15 minutes before we opened to get the last blank Jigsaw Corner we have at the time.
We do Try before you Buy clinics occasionally to drum up some business and it works. We will have a short teaching session then hit the lanes. It works and is worth the price!
Mike
quote:
Something just hit me as I read charlest's response....
this is exactly what Storm and Turbo have teamed up to try and combat. Their Try It Before You Buy It program gives the bowler the chance to try the ball before they buy one.
I think I am going to try and get a similar program to this going over the summer.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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--------------------
"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to Sally Kellerman, his college professor in Back to School ~~1986
Mike Craig - Storm Products Pro Shop staff -Columbus, OH
Post by: Doug Sterner on February 26, 2010, 12:36:40 PM
The typical hack wants the latest and greatest because they see other guys throwing it even though the oil soaked 5 year old ball they have is hooking too much as they stand right and point it up the 10 board.
My question is why do people act this way? Why won't they listen to reason? Dont they realize that most pro shop guys know way more about bowling balls than the individual bowler could ever know?
And on the flipside, why do some pro shops push the latest and greatest on their customers? Why sell a Mutant Cell when a Nomad Solid will work every bit as good and give the customer money back in their pocket as well as more forgiveness on the lanes? I know there are plenty of greedy pro shops out there that want to make a buck but c'mon.
Granted if I had bought the big package deals at the last 2 seminars I went to I could have gotten Jigsaw Corners, Missions and Pure Swings for under $100 each. Does that mean I should push those balls onto everybody that comes in the shop so I can make extra cash? I know there are plenty of shops that tell the customer the ball for them is the one they "just got in" and have "3 cases sitting right here." "It's the hottest ball on the market right now." is not a selling point for all of the customers through the door.....
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: JohnnyRocket on February 28, 2010, 04:45:48 PM
JR
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Johnny
Post by: nd300 on February 28, 2010, 05:09:36 PM
I went with both after watching them thrown by good---220 plus---bowlers. And they do what they're supposed to. I've bought many balls over the years,as many of us have. I try not to buy unless it's needed or to fit in as a tournament arsenal ball.
While the 'Net has made research easier,there's still way too many THB's out there who do want the latest hook ball,BECASUE THEY DON'T PRACTICE.......
That's where I agree totally with you experienced pro shop owners about selling. They should spend the extra $$ on lessons and practice instead of a ball.
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Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........
Post by: tommymo on February 28, 2010, 08:37:13 PM
How many times have you heard I want this ball to go really long and then snap on HEAVY oil? Or I don't want to adjust on heavy oil, I want to play the line I normally play so drill this ball really strong. I try to educate my customers during the process of picking a new ball. Yet, I still have one older gentleman that insists on buying the hottest ball on the market but he wants to play "down and in" on a medium oiled house shot on older wood lanes. He ends up selling the ball after that because he's mad it's not working. I also sold a Mutant to a gentleman this year who's been using a White Dot because "The color is ugly and no one else has it." There was nothing I could do to talk him out of it. I wanted to refuse to drill it but to be truthful I wanted to see him struggle for being so hard headed. I ended up plugging that ball a month later and trading it for a Freeze we had in stock. I strongly believe in educating my customers that's why I've sold more Fast, Furious, Nomads and Freezes this year its disgusting. I've also sold many Invasions, Jigsaw Corners and Virtual Energy's but those are the cases that were insistant on a high priced ball.
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Your mind is like a parachute . . . Useless if it's not open!!!!
10/21/05 Kaitlyn Emily and 02/01/07 Meghan Alexis, Daddy's little girls! 06/02/09 Zachary Thomas, Finally daddy's little man!!!
R.I.P Kevin Trombley 11/26/05 You were taken too soon!
Visionary Test Staff Member 07-Current
Frankie May Gryphon
Immortal Pearl
Ogre Pearl
Ogre SS
Gladiator
B/G Centaur
Post by: JohnP on March 01, 2010, 09:35:48 AM
Post by: tommymo on March 01, 2010, 11:07:40 AM
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Your mind is like a parachute . . . Useless if it's not open!!!!
10/21/05 Kaitlyn Emily and 02/01/07 Meghan Alexis, Daddy's little girls! 06/02/09 Zachary Thomas, Finally daddy's little man!!!
R.I.P Kevin Trombley 11/26/05 You were taken too soon!
Visionary Test Staff Member 07-Current
Frankie May Gryphon
Immortal Pearl
Ogre Pearl
Ogre SS
Gladiator
B/G Centaur
Post by: Kinalyx on March 01, 2010, 11:46:41 AM
The average joe bowler wants to show up once a week, stand where they always stand & average 200 without a problem. The issue is that they always want the new hook monster because "random person" made it look good. When they finally get the hook monster, at the very least it means they have to move.
Ive known MANY house bowlers that can literally not move at all, not one inch. If they have to move in any way, their game goes from a 200 to a 140 because they simply cant adjust....at all.
So now pro shops have to deal with the internet & TV selling people on a ball that will NEVER work for them & their current game. The pro shop drills the ball the way the customer wants because if they dont, they lose business. Then after the guy has the ball & doesnt like it, its the pro shops fault(honestly, how many times have u seen the average bowler blame himself for making a bad shot or a bad choice?).
The pro shops are in a catch 22, if they try to sell them something different, they risk losing business, if they drill it knowing it wont work, they run the risk of losing the business of people this guy bashes the pro shop to.
I for one dont envy any pro shop operators in this day & age.
Shawn
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In the bag
Ebonite Mission(pin under bridge, low weight hole) polish over OOB
Storm Fast(pin under bridge, low weight hole)
Storm Natural(pin over ring)
Coming soon
high scores??
Post by: six pack on March 01, 2010, 01:10:36 PM
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 01, 2010, 01:25:27 PM
so the guy in your scenario did right.....he got the ball he needed...not the ball he wanted because John Q Bowler had one or Randy Peetersen said it was the best ball on the planet.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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Post by: six pack on March 01, 2010, 01:36:35 PM
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 01, 2010, 01:38:45 PM
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on March 01, 2010, 01:52:18 PM
Now that I understand the game better and know more about surface prep and lay outs, all the stuff I have is mid priced. I can save $60 a ball and get a better reaction. Seems like a no brainer. Oddly enough EVERY single mid priced ball I have bought in the past 4 years paid for itself and then some very quickly. I'm still waiting for my Jigsaw to pay me back and I drilled it this summer. Rattler, paid me back in the first night I used it. Jigsaw is a great ball and I like it, but how often do I see a condition that I need it for...not often.
This probably makes me a jerk, but I love seeing the guy bring in his 3 ball roller with 3 high end bowling balls all drilled the same way, averaging in the 180's. I love seeing a guy walking in talking about how his new high end oiler is the greatest ball on the market, and proceed to watch it burn up at 30 feet and not make the pocket. This is why it's so easy on here to find these $210 balls with 10 games on them for sale for like $80.
If I were a pro shop owner, I would try to talk the buyer out of certain purchases, but in the end, the consumer knows more than you...just ask him/her.
Good Topic!
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on March 01, 2010, 01:53:40 PM
quote:
they don't need those type of balls for that condition.they need to learn to bowl,but they don't.they run out and buy the hook monsters.game in a box is all people want.they don't enjoy bowling only scoreing.two sides of the coin.
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The harder I try the harder they fall
I think that's the main problem. Very few people actually KNOW how to bowl correctly and think a $220 ball will turn them into pro's.
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: OddBalls on March 01, 2010, 01:59:13 PM
Now, the guy takes three steps and throws a back up ball.
His aresenal includes:
Hammer Jigsaw
Black Widow Nasty
Mutant Cell
and a WD for spares
I asked our PS guy why he would sell and fit these balls for him..
Seems his parents came in the day before and told him NOT to try and talk him out of any balls that he wanted. He's convinced that he's going to be a pro bowler and it keep him focused..
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Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: six pack on March 01, 2010, 02:05:28 PM
my current arsensal
Ogre pearl
Ogre ss
Lane 1 Gem Stone
Fab black hammer
I do have an Ogre particle on the way. I too enjoy hook monsters even though they usually just sit on the rack.
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: joeschmoe on March 01, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
ball that fits perfect than a ball that may be right for the conditions I'm bowling on. If my fit is right I can decide for myself if the ball is right. And I've never blamed any pro shop for a bad reaction, I can only say I'm at fault. A ball can only be as good as the guy that drills it.
That being said, no pro shop owner in their right mind would sell a ball to someone that they've never seen bowl, yet there are some in existence who do just that because a customer is hot for the latest hook-in-a-box out there.
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Beer makes ya smart...It made Bud-wiser.
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 03, 2010, 07:04:30 PM
Many look very good with these balls!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS on the top hat it seems they are all moving their feet inside until it strikes! I don't get this post!
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 03, 2010, 09:09:45 PM
"PS on the top hat it seems they are all moving their feet inside until it strikes! I don't get this post!"
What don't you get? MY questions were pretty straight forward and simple...
Why are these "league hacks" walking in and demanding to buy the latest hook in a box oil monster when all they do is chunk the ball up the 2nd arrow? When teh pro shop caves in and gives them what they want then they complain they cannot keep the ball off the headpin.
On the other hand I have seen tons of pro shops push the latest and greatest on everybody when they walk in the door. Just had an issue like this the other night.
A lady walks in the door of a buddy's shop with a balkl hse just got from another shop. She wanted a ball that finished just a little bit more than her Tropical Storm. She pulls out a Black Widow Nasty drilled stacked leverage! This is the kind of crap I am talking about.
Some pro shops screw the customer over like this and then the rest of us suffer when the customer won't trust any shop anymore.
It just baffles me......
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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Post by: bfreshour on March 04, 2010, 08:35:03 AM
120, 145, 161, 152, 159
That''''s a pretty good improvement for not having coach and just reading and watching everything I can find online.
My ball is a Mission X-OUT (I worry other bowlers make fun of me for throwing a Mission since I''m new) that was given to me by an Ebonite rep and I had drilled by a Pro who had never seen me throw. I just told her I was new to the game and the ball was given to me. She showed me how something was out of line (maybe the CG or Pin, not sure) but she would drill it the best she could.
I don''t plan on buying just any ball next time I get one, I''ll ask her and the Ebonite rep to at least watch me bowl (even if its not a lesson) so they can make a good recommendation on which ball to get, and how to have it drilled (and hopefully get my PAP, speed, revs from my current ball).
Edited on 3/4/2010 9:36 AM
Post by: Dave_in_Rio_Rancho on March 04, 2010, 04:23:48 PM
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 05, 2010, 02:54:48 AM
quote:
It just comes down to no actual knowledge of the game. Personally, I used to buy a lot of the oilers before I had a clue. I liked to have the latest and greatest and no one ever talked me out of it, so I kept doing it. I had some success, but it was very shaky at best.
Similar here - it comes like a revelation when you realize how a ball actually works on the lane and you can recognize its reaction and effectiveness. Since then, I have consequently "reduced" the aggressiveness of my arsenal, since I realized that I actually do not need "much ball" with my release and speed and the conditions that I actually face.
I am rather happy with a "simple" and harmless ball that "works" than a bag full of high end stuff that makes me look like a wannabe who might be lucky that the ball copes with the lane one night, with some good scores, but without a clue what I am actually doing (or the ball, respectively).
Sad thing about bowling is that just the wood counts, not the way you knock it down...
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
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Post by: kidlost2000 on March 05, 2010, 05:04:51 PM
My new favorite ball is a Brunswick Wild Thing drilled on a modified rico pattern. Supper clean, and great for playing up the right side. When they break down I move in with a blue avalanche or revolution real speed pro and have the whole right side to play off of.
Many good bowlers with less hand will be playing the super soakers and burning up the right sides and struggling to adjust when the lanes break down. I have also noticed many of them are over 50. Not all but many.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: cappy718 on March 07, 2010, 06:56:18 PM
After all the things I went through with the fury (polishing it up and such), I decided it try a pearl and got a gladiator pearl. I have only had it a few weeks now, but I do like it and I have been more consistent. It gave me more length and kept me on the pocket side more often.
Just the other day I did get to throw a 14lb ball. It happened to be the next "hook in a box" the c-system 3.5. That thing is a beast, but the thing I noticed about it was that I was able to get my ball speed up higher and get more pin action. I know some of that was the ball itself, but I liked the look of the 14lb. So I am planning on slowly stepping down to 14lbs. I dont make enough money to do it all at once.
That being said, I just got a Break s75 14lb. I guess I am starting over in a way, but I am reading and learning as much as I can. I plan on getting a mid/low end ball to give me options on different patterns. I'm glad that I find places like this to read information like this to understand what I am doing other than just throwing the ball down the lane.
I may be one of these people with the arsenal full of hook monsters but I am learning the errors of my ways. And how to adjust surfaces to help the problem...ha!
Little info about my style:
Speed of around 13.5 on 15lb ball
I dont know my revs tho.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and it has given me confirmation of some things that I've been thinking about recently. Thanks and dont get discouraged PS guys, there are some of us that will come around to realizing what you're saying. I really think most people just want to have a better game, they're just mislead.
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 07, 2010, 08:15:41 PM
Keep working at it, trust your pro shop guy and dont be afraid to experiment with something different if your driller suggests it will work.
Keep at it!!!!
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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Post by: cappy718 on March 08, 2010, 07:35:10 AM
Me bashing that guy would be really insensitive since he's since passed on! Even though he didnt watch me throw, he really couldnt. I didnt have a ball before he drilled it and he was left handed so even throwing one of his would of got us no where. I dont have any plans for the s75 I just got yet. I'll probably ask the pro shop guy what he thinks, although my current guy keeps wanting to drill all my balls the same. Pin next to ring finger with CG somewhere near my palm. Sometimes it will be kicked out to the right of my palm, but basically same drilling. Some of the used balls I have do have more exotic drillings, but unfortunately I dont know what it all means. But I will say when I see the drilling sheets now, I have a better idea. And I am going to keep looking and learning.
Post by: ImBackInTheGame on March 08, 2010, 09:32:11 AM
The center I bowl at has wood lanes that were resurfaced about 3 years ago I believe. It "seems" to me that the oil is fairly light but that might be part of the fast transition of the wood lanes. The owner has recently extended the pattern by a couple of feet, just to see if anyone would notice. My first shadow ball on this "extended" pattern missed way right, so I guess I noticed, lol.
I bought a Cell Pearl half way thru last season(first new ball since HS) so I really had no idea what I was really buying or how to have it drilled. The owner of the lanes drilled it up stacked. After a surface change, the ball has done well for me. With how dry the lanes seemed to get, I got the original Chainsaw (from Doug) and it is perfect for what I wanted it for. With the "extended" pattern I was struggling with the pearl (I still have issues with adjustments) so I wanted something with more midlane and I found a deal on the original Cell. I took it to a driller that was recommended to me by Mo Pinel. He watched me throw a few shots and drilled it up. It's drilled almost identical to my Pearl, but the pin to pap is a bit shorter. It has been ideal for me for the first two games, then I start going through the nose.
Now I have a NIB C-System 3.5 that I won in one of the raffles. After reading about the ball, I'm probably never going to be able to use it at my center, lol.
Next time I purchase a ball, I will buy it from a shop vs on the net and trust the shop owner to direct me to the correct ball. Unfortunatly the shop in my lanes is run by the owner of the center, and I'm not fond of his ability to drill. Plus his prices are insane ($235 drilled for the pearl and that didnt' includ grips or a slug, I didn't buy the ball from him so drilling was $90 with the grips and slug) He drilled up my Pearl and I had issues with it, took it to another shop and he adjusted my span and now it fits/feels great. However, I now have a great source for drilling, he knows my game and I have complete confidence in him.
Sorry for the rambling post, lol.
Post by: stroked298 on March 09, 2010, 08:06:01 PM
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Rotogrip staff member
Post by: cappy718 on March 09, 2010, 08:59:29 PM
Post by: cappy718 on March 12, 2010, 08:57:37 AM
Post by: fluff33 on March 12, 2010, 09:21:21 AM
quote:
Yeah speaking of pro shops drilling the same way all the time cuz that's what they like. Does anyone know of a good proshop down here on the MS gulf coast? Thanks again yall!
Don't know where this is but there is a McCorvey Pro Shop in Gautier, MS. Excellent reputation.
Post by: Doug Sterner on March 12, 2010, 02:05:54 PM
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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Post by: buffto on March 24, 2010, 11:12:09 AM
But in all honesty, if we had a light pattern at our house, I would probably be seeing the same problems listed in this topic.
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High Game - 300 (2008 With Storm Shift, 2009 With Storm Rapid Fire Pearl) High Series - 805 (2008 With Storm Shift).