Post by: 2EZ on November 08, 2005, 06:30:40 AM
Any experiience with any of these carrying the (*^$% ten pin with cary down conditions would be appreciated.
Post by: jimensminger on November 09, 2005, 08:40:49 AM
Edited on 11/11/2005 8:44 AM
Post by: charlest on November 09, 2005, 03:44:32 PM
Carrydown affects the ball you're using at the moment. We don't know if you left a weak ten pin of the ball skidded into the 6 pin. In general, to conquer carrydown, you need the next strongest ball, or the next strongest drilling or the next strongest surface.
If you jump from one ball which may be somewhere in the middle of the Dyno-Thane pack of balls to their strongest ball,which currently seems to be the Critical Mass, you may be using a ball totally inappropriate to the oil pattern.
For example, if you're using a polished Vendetta black, the apropriate step up might be a lightly sanded (say 1200 grit) matte finish Vendetta Black or a Sniper. To use a Critical Mass in this situation may get you a ball that rolls out in the midlane.
Example 2: If you're using a Sniper, the carrydown solution may be a lightly sanded Energy.
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Bowling: Wish I could help me as much as I seem to help others ...
Life ... is what you make of it. No, really!
Post by: sammy the sage on November 09, 2005, 05:26:13 PM
Post by: charlest on November 09, 2005, 06:19:27 PM
quote:
can tell you...the epic...not for carrydown....but excellent for wet/dry....
Isn't the Epic a Roto-Grip ball?
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Bowling: Wish I could help me as much as I seem to help others ...
Life ... is what you make of it. No, really!
Post by: 2EZ on November 10, 2005, 06:39:07 AM
At issue is consistantly leaving the ten pin. Our league follows a ladies teachers league, practically all of whom throw plastic. Balls I have tried to combat this issue with in the past couple of seasons include Storm X-Factor (4 X 3 pin above and beside ring finger), Ebonite Big Time (4 1/2 X 4 pin above and beside ring finger), Lane 1 Blueberry (3 1/2 X 3 pin under and beside ring finger). Experiments with these balls included different levels of surface, playing different parts of the lane, using different speeds and hand positions. None of these pieces have proven capable of leaving less than 2 - 3 ten pins in at least one of the three games bowled on a given night. So, I continue to try and find that right core/cover combination that will more consistantly reward good shot making.
Post by: sammy the sage on November 10, 2005, 06:50:06 AM
Post by: AllAirForceTwice on November 10, 2005, 09:35:42 PM
quote:
764 last night with the CM,..we get carry down in practice. 1000 wet sanded with a Abralon pad,..then dry buffed with a wet rag,...
Not to be a "smartiepants" but how do you dry buff with a wet rag?
Post by: Laybzz74 on November 10, 2005, 09:49:37 PM
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DAMN, I LOVE this game !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM
Edited on 11/10/2005 10:40 PM
Post by: charlest on November 10, 2005, 10:14:41 PM
quote:
charlest - thanks for the reply
At issue is consistantly leaving the ten pin. Our league follows a ladies teachers league, practically all of whom throw plastic. Balls I have tried to combat this issue with in the past couple of seasons include Storm X-Factor (4 X 3 pin above and beside ring finger), Ebonite Big Time (4 1/2 X 4 pin above and beside ring finger), Lane 1 Blueberry (3 1/2 X 3 pin under and beside ring finger). Experiments with these balls included different levels of surface, playing different parts of the lane, using different speeds and hand positions. None of these pieces have proven capable of leaving less than 2 - 3 ten pins in at least one of the three games bowled on a given night. So, I continue to try and find that right core/cover combination that will more consistantly reward good shot making.
2EZ,
There's a fair;y large difference in oil handling capabilities going fromt he Big Time (solid particle ball) to the X-Factor (resin pearl, asymmetric core) & the BlueBerry (solid resin, highly polsihed, low flare).
My feeling, besides the unspecified nature of your surface changes is that the X-Factor and Blueberry might have been very susceptible to the the Carrydown created by the 1st shift plastic legaue (I know, I suffer from the exact same problem, sometimes, in my Tuesday league),
WHile,
on the other hand, the Big Time, may have burned up and expended all its energy in the midlane, before it even got to the carrydown, which it may have handled with ease. The BT is a pretty strong ball, easily capable of handling Medium-heavy oil for most people.
Often it is very hard to diagnose these problems, by remote control, as we try to do with descriptive words, instead of wathcing the ball reaction.
It may be possible, with the right surface treatment, that either the Blueberry (Solid PK 18 is very strong with added surface) or the Big Time (600 grit sanding with very light polish) could handle this problem. There are many possible surface changes.
The above is just some general discussion. Sorry, I can't offer any more; there are lots of possible balls, but the 3 you have can handle lots of surface changes.
Another possibility is that each day is slightly different, from real carrydown to burnt up heads and/or midlane.I have found that it varies and can be hard to see exactly what it is on each separate occasion, without some other sharp pairs of eyes closely watching.
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Bowling: Wish I could help me as much as I seem to help others ...
Life ... is what you make of it. No, really!
Post by: AllAirForceTwice on November 10, 2005, 10:19:17 PM
Jim, got any references on your surface prep regimens? I am getting a spinner for Christmas (that's code for I am telling my wife what to buy me or "to the curb" she goes...)
I see a lot of interesting suggestions by you on here...
PS guys, don't tell my wife my secret plans!!!
--------------------
Capt Dave Ingraham
2004 All Air Force
"Don't move Dave... the lanes will come to you." - Chris Kidd
Post by: 2EZ on November 11, 2005, 06:25:31 AM
Dave - sorry, I don't have a spinner. When I want to alter the surface of a ball I give it to my ball driller and have him put either more or less polish on the ball. Not sure exactly what he does or what kind of materials he uses.
Bought a Dynothane Centrifugal Mass yesterday. I will let everyone know how well it performs on this shot.
Post by: jimensminger on November 11, 2005, 06:49:48 AM
I gone to using Abralon pads exclusively, 1000-2000-4000,...and no polishes, too me polish gives me a false surface and tends to track-up and wear off. Also polished balls tend to give too many over-under reads.
1000: balls that I want to arc and read the entire lane,..usually balls with pin to pap in the 3-4" range.
2000: this has become my favorite, most of my benchmark balls have this. This surface clears the fronts with ease,..and will still read the dry backs and track without over reacting. I can usually stay with this surface longer, while moving or chasing the oil line/track.
4000: when I need length, have to go deep, OR want to go up the outside this surface is great,..I usually prep to 1000, and then go up with the 4000,..this really shines the surface up nicely,..the good thing about this is the surface doesn't loose it's look like polish.
When I prepare a ball, I do 4 sides with lots of water and keep the pads rinsed out a bunch, top-bottom-left-right, then when I get done with that,..I take a clean terry-cloth and wet buff the surface, to me it kinda sets the surface, it cleans it real good, and gives me the look I want,..but that's just me.
What works for me may not work for everyone,..but I think that surface plays the biggest part in ball reaction,..you have to learn to put the right surface on the right ball, that's drilled right, for the right reaction,...simple right.
Post by: AllAirForceTwice on November 19, 2005, 08:19:50 PM
--------------------
Capt Dave Ingraham
2004 All Air Force
"Don't move Dave... the lanes will come to you." - Chris Kidd
Post by: 2EZ on November 22, 2005, 02:21:07 PM
Seeing how this is the only league I bowl in, and therefore the only condition I really have to conquer for average, I decided to try two balls. Bought the Vendetta Black Solid and a Centrifucal Mass. FYI - my pap location is 5 3/4" over, 1/4" up. Typical ball speed 18.0 - 18.5 mph, Qubica, with decent revs. Can change hand so axis tilt is variable.
Laid the CM out strong: pin 4" from pap, cap in the power position, between thumb and VAl, also 4" from pap, small balance hole on PAP. Hoping this strong layout would give me more "pop" when it entered the pocket.
Laid the VBS out with my favorite drilling - 4 X 5, with the pin above and the the right of my ring finger, cg near mid grip.
Off to league...
During warm-ups I felt I was getting a better reaction with the VBS. Threw it the first two games for 237, 224 (current league average = 220). Decided to try the CM last game just to see what it would do, and also to test it for a tournament I was going to be competing in over the weekend. Was rewarded with a 184. Was not able to get a consistant reaction from the ball, and was not impressed with carry when I did get it to the pocket.
Off to the tournament...
Tournament consists 3 games each at four different houses - 12 total. Total pinfall (scratch tournament) for the top eight qualify for elimination rounds.
1st 2 games (VBS) 216, 207. 3rd game (CM) 171. Stayed with the VBS for house #2, ball moved well and carry was decent, missed some easy spares to fail to give myself a chance to qualify. Just for grins threw the CM in house #3 - 172, 159, 212. Ok, OK, I get it. Not the ball for me. Threw the VBS in the last house, hoping to recoup some of my losses in pots - 257 (front 6, screwed it up) 246 (front 7, REALLY screwed it up) 219. Went home broke.
Long story short... oops, sorry, I guess it's a little too late for that, love the VBS and expect a lot of good scores from the ball over the rest of the season. Highly recommend this ball for a lot of different conditions.
Can't recommend the CM. I'll plug it up try to get something back out of it on the used ball rack.
Post by: AllAirForceTwice on November 23, 2005, 05:11:39 PM
quote:
Dave,...I have a spinner so I've done a lot of experimenting, and here's what I have found that works best FOR ME on the conditions I see most.
I gone to using Abralon pads exclusively, 1000-2000-4000,...and no polishes, too me polish gives me a false surface and tends to track-up and wear off. Also polished balls tend to give too many over-under reads.
1000: balls that I want to arc and read the entire lane,..usually balls with pin to pap in the 3-4" range.
2000: this has become my favorite, most of my benchmark balls have this. This surface clears the fronts with ease,..and will still read the dry backs and track without over reacting. I can usually stay with this surface longer, while moving or chasing the oil line/track.
4000: when I need length, have to go deep, OR want to go up the outside this surface is great,..I usually prep to 1000, and then go up with the 4000,..this really shines the surface up nicely,..the good thing about this is the surface doesn't loose it's look like polish.
When I prepare a ball, I do 4 sides with lots of water and keep the pads rinsed out a bunch, top-bottom-left-right, then when I get done with that,..I take a clean terry-cloth and wet buff the surface, to me it kinda sets the surface, it cleans it real good, and gives me the look I want,..but that's just me.
What works for me may not work for everyone,..but I think that surface plays the biggest part in ball reaction,..you have to learn to put the right surface on the right ball, that's drilled right, for the right reaction,...simple right.
Jim, I got my pads today... 6 inch circular pads 500, 100, 200, 4000... www.toolpeddler.com $3.29 a piece... $23.38 to my door. Kinda pumped up about trying this out... I have 2 or 3 balls that don't match up to me or the shot currently. I want to switch out surfaces so I can feel really good agoing into the Air Force, Armed Forces and Team USA tournaments in Jan. Do you mind if I run a list of 8 balls with the surface and drills by you for recommendations?
Thanks!!!
--------------------
Capt Dave Ingraham
2004 All Air Force
"Don't move Dave... the lanes will come to you." - Chris Kidd
Post by: AllAirForceTwice on November 23, 2005, 11:31:22 PM
They apparently ship from Portland, OR... FYI everyone, this is NOT a bowling site... I even noticed little handy tools that could be adapted to the bowler's proshop.
--------------------
Capt Dave Ingraham
2004 All Air Force
"Don't move Dave... the lanes will come to you." - Chris Kidd
Post by: charlest on November 24, 2005, 07:27:37 AM
quote:
Results are in:
Seeing how this is the only league I bowl in, and therefore the only condition I really have to conquer for average, I decided to try two balls. Bought the Vendetta Black Solid and a Centrifucal Mass. FYI - my pap location is 5 3/4" over, 1/4" up. Typical ball speed 18.0 - 18.5 mph, Qubica, with decent revs. Can change hand so axis tilt is variable.
Laid the CM out strong: pin 4" from pap, cap in the power position, between thumb and VAl, also 4" from pap, small balance hole on PAP. Hoping this strong layout would give me more "pop" when it entered the pocket.
Laid the VBS out with my favorite drilling - 4 X 5, with the pin above and the the right of my ring finger, cg near mid grip.
Off to league...
During warm-ups I felt I was getting a better reaction with the VBS. Threw it the first two games for 237, 224 (current league average = 220). Decided to try the CM last game just to see what it would do, and also to test it for a tournament I was going to be competing in over the weekend. Was rewarded with a 184. Was not able to get a consistant reaction from the ball, and was not impressed with carry when I did get it to the pocket.
Off to the tournament...
Tournament consists 3 games each at four different houses - 12 total. Total pinfall (scratch tournament) for the top eight qualify for elimination rounds.
1st 2 games (VBS) 216, 207. 3rd game (CM) 171. Stayed with the VBS for house #2, ball moved well and carry was decent, missed some easy spares to fail to give myself a chance to qualify. Just for grins threw the CM in house #3 - 172, 159, 212. Ok, OK, I get it. Not the ball for me. Threw the VBS in the last house, hoping to recoup some of my losses in pots - 257 (front 6, screwed it up) 246 (front 7, REALLY screwed it up) 219. Went home broke.
Long story short... oops, sorry, I guess it's a little too late for that, love the VBS and expect a lot of good scores from the ball over the rest of the season. Highly recommend this ball for a lot of different conditions.
Can't recommend the CM. I'll plug it up try to get something back out of it on the used ball rack.
2EZ,
You're jumping to the wrong conclusions. The CM is a much stronger balla nd needs more oil than the VBS to begin with. Ontop of that you drilled it MUCH stronger. You can't go from a weaker ball (the VBS is weaker, not weak) to a stronger ball after the weaker ball proves to be too strong. Of course the CM will hit weaker than the VBS or hardly hit at all.
Before dumping an expensive investment, try modifying the cover of the CM. Use some of Jim's finer sandpaper; doesn't have to be Abralon or adding a light polish to the CM, for added length. Even better, sand it to 1000, 1200 grit and then add some polish.
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Most of the stuff people worry about ain't never gonna happen anyway...
Post by: tekneek on November 24, 2005, 11:36:28 AM
Post by: 2EZ on November 25, 2005, 12:25:40 PM
Bottom line; from my experience throwing the CM in three different houses, including synthetic and wood, on three different oil patterns, it qualifies as a POS. If you love yours, I'm happy for you. Hopefully the next owner of the one I bought will have more success with it.
Post by: 2EZ on November 25, 2005, 04:24:27 PM
Post by: charlest on November 25, 2005, 05:19:55 PM
quote:
Charles - While I appreciate the advice, I have to ask how you can make a statement like I am jumping to the wrong conclusions. You don't know me, my skill at reading lane conditions or ball reactions, what part of the lane I played, how much oil was on the lane, etc. However, you drew the wrong conclusion: I never wrote that the Vendetta Black Solid was too strong. I also already stated that I had drilled the CM stronger, and did this on purpose.
You didn't write it. I said it. This has not one blessed thing to do with your abiltiy tro read lanes.
The balls have some huge basic differences. The CM is just a stronger ball, overall, in every aspect than the VBS. period. No IFs, ANDs or BUTs about it.
It has nothing to do with how you drilled the balls.
You're making a huge major assumption: that you can make a weaker ball stronger than a MUCH stronger ball just by drilling it stronger. You can't.
quote:
Bottom line; from my experience throwing the CM in three different houses, including synthetic and wood, on three different oil patterns, it qualifies as a POS. If you love yours, I'm happy for you. Hopefully the next owner of the one I bought will have more success with it.
It has nothing to do with what I like or dislike If you refuse to accept the facts, I'm sorry. You'll forever be stuck in the mindset you have now and will rarely be able to use many balls to their optimum. Recognize the basic designed-in differences.
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Most of the stuff people worry about ain't never gonna happen anyway...
Post by: 2EZ on November 26, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
You are way off base, because someone that puts more turn on the ball will get a COMPLETELY different reaction from someone that throws a back-up ball, regardless of how the ball is drilled. Until you accept that fact, you will never average over 150.
Post by: 2EZ on December 06, 2005, 07:08:53 AM
SE MICH - just north of Detroit. Lots of tourneys in the Detroit area - will be coming out you way for the state tourney this year. I believe it is either in G Rapids or Kzoo.