Post by: manu57 on September 11, 2005, 04:00:31 PM
There are some manufacturers out there that have become very popular lately with "new" technology that is not all that new or special. Bowlers are hot and cold on the Epoxy ball, others are not seeing a "hole" lot of difference between their old equipment and the new MoRich Vanguard cores, and for that matter Track is "starting a revolution" with basically a new marketing campaign.
Dynothane, with the release of the Centrifugal Mass, may change the way we look at Asymmetrical balls forever, but there are very few threads about it, and no one seems to be really excited about it. It does not seem like Phil and his staff get the recognition that others like Del Warren, Mo Pinel, etc. do. If the CM ball does what they are predicting, I hope Dynothane not only benefits from sales, but also be recognized as being more of a technological leader in the industry.
Is the lack of enthusiasm toward Dyothane because they do not have the same large scale distribution the other big manufactures have? Or is there marketing team just not as strong? Or does there product just not match up with bowlers like what else is out there. What do you guys think?
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Geniu
s has its Limits
Edited on 9/12/2005 0:31 AM
Post by: Waldorf Salad on September 12, 2005, 01:03:39 AM
Post by: manu57 on September 12, 2005, 01:21:51 AM
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: charlest on September 12, 2005, 06:22:33 AM
quote:
There are some manufacturers out there that have become very popular lately with "new" technology that is not all that new or special. Bowlers are hot and cold on the Epoxy ball, others are not seeing a "hole" lot of difference between their old equipment and the new MoRich Vanguard cores, and for that matter Track is "starting a revolution" with basically a new marketing campaign.
The Epoxy technology is new, but unproven. The ball is exceedingly ugly which is a major marketing "faux pas".
MoRich's cores are also less new technology than a better and more effective implementation of an idea that had almost died "aborning"; but it is still badly marketed. They work and seem to increase the effect cores have on a ball's overall reaction. The Morpheus cores by Track have a similar effect, which is no surprise as Del Warren is a disciple of Mo Pinel's.
Dyno-Thane's Soaker technology is new. Unfortunately, its effect is not on easily seen by uneducated and uninformed bowlers. Its side effect, the need for break-in and the slight extra strength it applies to the cover, are also positives that are not easily seen. They are only recognized over time and bowlers are generally not patient people.
quote:
Dynothane, with the release of the Centrifugal Mass, may change the way we look at Asymmetrical balls forever, but there are very few threads about it, and no one seems to be really excited about it.
This makes you seem like a Dyno-Thane insider and makes this thread initialization very suspicious.
We have all heard advance news of supposed "revolutions" in ball designs, be it cover or core that were never quite what the advanced propaganda said they will be. Furthermore, Phil Cardinale has put down and criticized asymmetric cores and Mass Bias/Preferred Spin Axis designs and implementations so often and so loudly here at ballreviews and then all of a sudden reverses that and says he has created a true asymmetric core. Well, I'm the last one in any line to doubt Mr. Cardinale's abilities, for he has a proven track record with demonstrable effects in PBA victories. But my attitude has always been let's see what the tests of the new design in the real world show us.
Besides all that, I have seen that asymmetric cores in MoRich's and Track's balls do provide an easily seen visual difference in ball reaction (not that my word is proof of anything), something that Phil Cardinale says does not exist.
quote:
It does not seem like Phil and his staff get the recognition that others like Del Warren, Mo Pinel, etc. do. If the CM ball does what they are predicting, I hope Dynothane not only benefits from sales, but also be recognized as being more of a technological leader in the industry.
I don't know any knowledgable bowler with an ounce of common sense who has ever said that Phil Cardinale is not a technological leader in this industry. His "Track" record is proven and would stand on its own, if, God forbid, he died tomorrow. I don't even know how you could say that.
Dyno-Thane could use a little more brand recognition. Some tour victories besides that of Steve Jaros would be helpful in that way. Shame that Steve Hoskins didn't make the PBA exempt cut. He helped establish Phil's standing in the bowling community with his tour victories using the original Heat.
quote:
Is the lack of enthusiasm toward Dyothane because they do not have the same large scale distribution the other big manufactures have? Or is there marketing team just not as strong? Or does there product just not match up with bowlers like what else is out there. What do you guys think?
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
The only lack I see is brand marketing. They seem to be in the same boat as Roto-Grip, AMF, Hammer and Visionary, although I think they are a degree better than those companies in applying innovation to design and implementation. Roto-Grip seems better at designing basic balls without getting the consumer confused at to what balls is useful for what.
DT has gone over the edge in having too many balls for who knows what purpose. I can usually master a ball company, but even I am now lost in the maze of new balls in their high-end, Master line. I wouldn't know what to suggest for what kind of bowler on what kind of oil pattern.
Their Vendetta line is good, but even that needs a few more types of balls; plus I haven't seen a Black Vendetta available in a year or two. All the attention seems to be going into the Master line to its detriment - confusion.
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Bowling: Just like hand grenades and horse shoes, you only have to get close.
Life: Deal with what is.
Post by: manu57 on September 12, 2005, 08:56:15 AM
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: jimensminger on September 12, 2005, 09:39:03 AM
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on September 12, 2005, 10:56:03 AM
The Thing, with its part soaker pearl part solid and the Heat core was more forgiving, but less useful on tough conditions. The Thing Returns was a strongish pearl that didn't seem to fit quite what most folks thought of as a pearl reaction, nor was it the best ball in the class on the THS, though it was sensational on any of the regional patterns or flat oil. The Barrage was arguably the best dry lane ball I have ever seen. The Anomaly was and is that, a ball that takes some getting used to. Some of the newer Dynothane equipment is more user friendly for the THB (the Thing Lives, The PUre Energy, The Energy, The Vendetta Black, The Vendetta Particle Pearl, The AU79, The Maxx, Vendetta Pearl), but frankly, less precise.
I think that the patience required for the best use of some of the Dynothane stuff was off-putting to many bowlers. When added with limited availability (I have found it hard to get some of the "in production" equipment") and the change to a more forgiving, hookier set of balls has led people to not be sure where the company is going. Dynothane equipment is absolutely superior. My tournament arsenal still includes the Barrage and an Element I have had sitting around and a High Energy. But the combination of factors has led the company's stuff to be underrated and underutilized, especially by better bowlers. In my opinion.
Oh, and New Guy, if you have any 15 lb NIB red blacks sitting around in the back of the warehouse, gimme a call or PM me. I'll pay top dollar...maybe even royalties...
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"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."
Edited on 9/12/2005 11:42 AM
Post by: charlest on September 12, 2005, 10:57:49 AM
quote:
You always seem to give a perfect answer Charlest. I am a Scientist\Engineer who bowls. I make more of my ball purchasing decisions based on cores and tech docs than I should. I'm about as far away from an insider as you can get.I know Phil's "Track" record, and never said he wasn't known in the business, just that they are not getting much attention. Your last comments sum it up pretty well. It makes perfect sense.
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
No offense implied, manu57.
Your words, to my mind, implied more than they said. Oh well, you know they saying, "When we assume, ...."
I think Phil has a great reputation for both innovation in technology and implementation of that technology, which is something few innovators can do. AND, I believe (I don't know as I am not an insider) he has reputation to all insiders for many good things.
What I didn't sum up in my previous comment is that I think, from what I see, is that Phil is on an innovation "roll" creating many great balls, but his presentation to users. His marketing of these innovations does not seem to be getting done correctly. There are too many Masters balls overlapping one another. Of course, maybe I just don't know them well enough. I don't have many of the new ones but if I can't make heads or tails of them, how will the average good bowler or even the better than average pro shop?
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Bowling: Just like hand grenades and horse shoes, you only have to get close.
Life: Deal with what is.
Post by: manu57 on September 12, 2005, 11:11:50 AM
Thanks Philip for your response. It seems the answers I have been getting are not only what my initial feelings were, but are very much the same accross this message board.
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: Next Level PS on September 12, 2005, 11:28:37 AM
Quote
Dynothane, with the release of the Centrifugal Mass, may change the way we look at Asymmetrical balls forever, but there are very few threads about it, and no one seems to be really excited about it. It does not seem like Phil and his staff get the recognition that others like Del Warren, Mo Pinel, etc. do.
Phil will never get to recognition he needs like Mo and Dell because he will never get on the road and promote his product. I just had Track over last month at my new location and they did 30 minunte seminars with each customer and also recommended a Track ball that would be good for them. That one day I sold over 25 balls. Before that day Track was no name in the area now bowlers are asking what is the latest track ball they have, same with MO he's alway at Semiz Proshop doing Seminars selling 50-70 balls per visit.
Phil needs to get in the trenches like Mo and how Dell use to do (now because of his new position with Columbia). Don't get me wrong Phil makes great equipment but he needs to get out to the bowlers or get the Hype that Lane#1 had 2 years ago.
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www.nextlevelproshop.com
Edited on 9/12/2005 11:31 AM
Post by: Bluff on September 12, 2005, 12:30:33 PM
quote:
No problem Charlest. To some bowlers, knowing who Phil is would be like if I expected everyone to know who Henry Kloss was in my field. There are brilliant minds eveywhere in places we would least expect.
Thanks Philip for your response. It seems the answers I have been getting are not only what my initial feelings were, but are very much the same accross this message board.
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Henry Kloss = Not Hight End Stuff
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Honestly I got a lot of balls. No NOT BOWLING BALLS!
Post by: manu57 on September 12, 2005, 01:34:38 PM
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: newguy on September 13, 2005, 10:49:32 AM
Maybe I should address a few concerns, first off we do not run around the country telling everyone how great we are, we'd rather have them form that opinion themselves. I much prefer people find out about our product thru others that have used it and converted to it because it is a value and performs as advertised. I firmly believe in having people actually see the motion on their own and not have to be told what they are seeing. This way they can see it when I'm not standing there telling them to see it.
Our product lines are arsenals, the Vendetta core is very versatile and a great value. Thus we have built an line around that core with different covers, so if the core matches up with a particular player they can have an arsenal with that core.
The Energy line has the soaker cover and it to is an arsenal. Same core several covers. Higher cost since the cover stock is more expensive.
Same went for the Thing line. The Element line etc. So I do not think this is too confusing, if you like a core and need to add to it, there are options with that core design. This over the years has been avery successful marketing technique and it helps the serious bowler to build around a ball they particularly like. Hammer did it years ago and they were number 1 for a very long time. I have been in charge here for less than 4 years so if we were to have developed all these arsenals all at once we would have had to launch 15 balls or so into he first few years.
We do get plenty of recognition, every time we win a major tile like the ToC, or the players Championship we get noticed. Most importantly we get noticed by our satisfied customers who write us every day telling us how they found a company that tells it like it is, the balls perform as advertised and they feel they have gotten their monies worth. Some even get some great award scores and for many it is their first. These are the the things that are important. Not me running around the country telling everyone how great I am. I get plenty of pats on the back at this forum and that is fine.
Finally I feel we have a core unique enough and that performs differently enough that we should get into the asymmetrical core market. It will fill a spot in the line,that I can assure you. It has taken me a very long time to come up with an asymmetrical core that is worthy of the D/T logo.
Ask yourselves this, why do the other Asymmetrical core hypers always feel it is necessary to launch a new latest and greatest asymmetrical core right after they just launched one that they just told you was the best ever. I'm always suspect when someone tell me this was better than the last. Did they not do enough testing on the last one to realize that a better one could have been made, or are they just playing everyone as fools and always keeping the better one for the next launch.
We build arsenals based on particular performances. It usually takes 3 or 4 balls in each line to build an arsenal. That's our PHILosophy.
Post by: Jeffrevs on September 13, 2005, 11:44:42 AM
quote:
Finally I feel we have a core unique enough and that performs differently enough that we should get into the asymmetrical core market. It will fill a spot in the line,that I can assure you. It has taken me a very long time to come up with an asymmetrical core that is worthy of the D/T logo.
Ask yourselves this, why do the other Asymmetrical core hypers always feel it is necessary to launch a new latest and greatest asymmetrical core right after they just launched one that they just told you was the best ever. I'm always suspect when someone tell me this was better than the last. Did they not do enough testing on the last one to realize that a better one could have been made, or are they just playing everyone as fools and always keeping the better one for the next launch.
Often the major asym core producing companies add tweaks w/ density changes and cover changes to get different intended reactions.
quote:
We build arsenals based on particular performances. It usually takes 3 or 4 balls in each line to build an arsenal. That's our PHILosophy.
I'm assuming we'll see the same type thing from D/T. Certainly you can't build ONE ball for 'every' intended reaction.......
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JEFF
"...each anothers audience outside the gilded cage.."
Edited on 9/14/2005 10:04 AM
Post by: newguy on September 14, 2005, 09:46:15 AM
Post by: Jeffrevs on September 14, 2005, 10:00:15 AM
quote:
42 lines of response to several questions and you revert back to the same old info.
Maybe, Phil...it's because it was the first time I had read the thread ?! And....that's the point that interested me most! You must admit, ...this IS quite a reach for you ...yes ?
Go back and see the prior post...I edited it so you can see what I was referring to......
quote:
I'm not the one that keeps buying the new and imporved version of last weeks greatest hits!!!!
Either am I !!!!!!!!!!!
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JEFF
"...each anothers audience outside the gilded cage.."
Edited on 9/14/2005 10:04 AM
Post by: manu57 on September 14, 2005, 08:00:49 PM
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The only difference between Genius and Stupidity is Genius has its Limits
Post by: onlybowling on September 15, 2005, 01:45:37 AM
It seems to me that other ball companies offer asymetrical cores in their top of the line equipment. And a large percentage of balls sold are of the asymetrical core design. Am I wrong in thinking that the lack of a high end asymetrical design could prevent sales of ... any brand of ball?
When comparing symetrical cored balls, Dynothane is second to none. I am thinking that the new asymetrical will be in the same boat. I don't think Phil does his job half way. I expect the new line of asymetrical balls will offer the bowler who prefers this type of ball another high end choice that is equal to any other available today.
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OnlyBowling
Post by: newguy on September 15, 2005, 10:32:00 AM
Post by: cooksey on September 15, 2005, 10:41:26 AM
Thanks, cooksey
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" Focus the next shot is critical"
AIM:johncooksey24
Edited on 9/15/2005 10:35 AM
Post by: cpo_bee on September 15, 2005, 11:37:11 AM