BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Ebonite => Topic started by: charlest on May 10, 2015, 07:33:24 AM
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Brunswick had the Danger Zone, Inferno & Mastermind.
Hammer had the Black Widow and the Vibe.
Roto-Grip had the Cell and the Nomad.
Storm had Hy-Road and the Virtual Gravity.
AMF had the Night Hawk.
Each of these balls was such a mainstay for that manufacturer, that many, many versions of each of these very famous series were manufactured. They rode the coattails of the original.
It seems like Ebonite's one "famous" ball was the Vortex 2, the basis for the Gamebreaker and Cyclone series. Now it's 15 years later; the Vortex 2 was introduced in 2000. They seem to be stuck with this as their sole legacy.
It almost appears as if this is the only item keeping Ebonite afloat these days.
I'm sure every Ebonite fan will claim several other balls are equally great; while that may be true, no other ball comes close in sales, which is the bottom line.
I know there are some very talented people still at Ebonite; why can't they hit that magic formula again? Is it just marketing or is there some other reason?
This is not a rant; it's more a statement of sadness, that a once great company has not been able to rise from the ashes, as has most other ball manufacturers. I wish I knew why. Except for a Cyclone, I have not found one Ebonite brand ball that was truly useful for me int he past 10 years or so.
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I thought the "One" series were good balls.
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Charles - do you feel Columbia or Track has a ball that meets this criteria?
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Track - Critical Mass
Columbia - Original Cuda/C
Ebonite - Original Nitro R2....the predecessor to the V2
3835
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Some cores are mediocre, some are good, few are great. Look at the Break/Eagle core. 11 balls in 8 years with that core, and that's not even counting the Black Ops coming up. All but 3 wrapped in S70 (Break Points and S75), varying core tweaks (higher rg, lower diff) and it just rolls well for most people.
Shoot, did I just talk myself into drilling a Break Down?
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Charles - do you feel Columbia or Track has a ball that meets this criteria?
Of course they do; I just was more focused on what seems to be THE Ebonite problem.
I'd suggest the Heat for Track.
and the Messenger/Cuda and Pulse for Columbia.
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Some cores are mediocre, some are good, few are great. Look at the Break/Eagle core. 11 balls in 8 years with that core, and that's not even counting the Black Ops coming up. All but 3 wrapped in S70 (Break Points and S75), varying core tweaks (higher rg, lower diff) and it just rolls well for most people.
Shoot, did I just talk myself into drilling a Break Down?
I wasn't talking about a core or a cover, but the final entity - the ball.
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the turbo
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Ebo had some good ones: mission, the one, total NV. Each one of those lines had some big sellers within each too. I think they need a marketing genius as much as they need help producing better equipment.
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Ebonite's problem is that their covers are not known for being long lasting, and this is coming from a guy that was only Ebonite from 93-02. Their "weaker" covers lasted longer cause they didn't absorb as much oil.
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they may have been true previously
i have at least 300 games on 1 of my GB2 with surface touch ups here and there.
baked it once, it performs as well as new from what i am seeing
I think those issues are behind them IMO
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Ebonite was on top because they had the best mid-price value in bowling. Savage, Pantera, Tiger, Overtime, Vortex Series, those were the best options money could buy at $160 and under. They were putting out balls that were hooking as much as anyone else's $200+ product at the time.
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Ebo had some good ones: mission, the one, total NV. Each one of those lines had some big sellers within each too. I think they need a marketing genius as much as they need help producing better equipment.
I agree that they, Mission, the One series, were good, but they produced nothing in comparison to the Vortex/V2/Gamebreaker balls. I think marketing, or lack thereof, may be one of the missing but vital keys. I am not sure as I am not a corporation.
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Ebonite was on top because they had the best mid-price value in bowling. Savage, Pantera, Tiger, Overtime, Vortex Series, those were the best options money could buy at $160 and under. They were putting out balls that were hooking as much as anyone else's $200+ product at the time.
As I think of it, Ebonite had one ball that was significantly better than the V2; it was the V3, the particle version of the Vortex. It went as long, had slightly less backend, with slightly more overall hook, but its carrry percentage was one of the highest I have ever seen in my 50 years of bowling. Pins couldn't wait to get out its way. It was as if the wind knocked them all down.
BUT and this is a HUGE "BUT", if I had seen one V3, then I saw 10 V3s die within about 25 - 30 games. Back then, people didn't give half a thought to cleaning their balls with any regularity. And when an expensive ball dies in such a short period of time, people get mad and they don't forget. The V3 disappeared quickly into anonymity. It might have been the start of Ebonite's digging it own grave.
The V2's popularity countered a good deal of the V3's bad rep, but not all of it.
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When they bought C300 and Track they got an attitude that they were going to take things over. They tried to force feed some changes to a few large accounts that didn't go as planed and had a much larger negative impact then they expected. They haven't recovered from that and it was over 5 years ago.
Storm has a similar attitude these days. It will be interesting to see when the tide shifts again and they are looking back going WTF happened.
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Over the past 15 years, I occasionally picked a ball from one of their popular lines to give it a shot... Apex line, TPC line, Vortex line, Optyx, etc. Could never seem to match up with anything. The only possible exception was the NVS...which I did actually like.
I always assume I am pretty representative of the general population with equipment that matches... maybe this is why?
S^2
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Quite honestly the only Ebonite balls I ever see getting thrown are the Nitro series balls. And some of the old-timers still kill the THS shot with them!
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the One was a big seller. it did a lot of winning on tour that year too.
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the One was a big seller. it did a lot of winning on tour that year too.
That ball was fairly good for Ebonite, but, still, even that was 10 years ago now.
Like the Mission, they tried to keep the series alive but no successor was even close to the original in sales or utility.
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the One was a big seller. it did a lot of winning on tour that year too.
That ball was fairly good for Ebonite, but, still, even that was 10 years ago now.
Like the Mission, they tried to keep the series alive but no successor was even close to the original in sales or utility.
The Cyclones are the "successor" to the One if that can be considered the case. It is very rare that a ball will last 10 years, but I know that the One ran it's course and was pretty successful and the NV series was the follow up and had moderate success. I think right now it's just a general shift in who the market believes is better based on market dominance and right now Storm/Roto Grip is king.
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I think that these things tend to go in cycles. I'm 35 going on 36, and during my 25 or so years of closely paying attention to bowling balls, I can remember times when just about all of of the "major players" were on top at one point or another. Sure, some companies have managed to stay up there longer and/or more frequently, but all of them have been there at one point or another. Long story short, it's true that Ebonite seems to be in something of a dry spell; nevertheless, it won't shock me at all if they get things rolling and become a major player/seller again. It's happened before, and it will probably happen again at some point.
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I think that these things tend to go in cycles. I'm 35 going on 36, and during my 25 or so years of closely paying attention to bowling balls, I can remember times when just about all of of the "major players" were on top at one point or another. Sure, some companies have managed to stay up there longer and/or more frequently, but all of them have been there at one point or another. Long story short, it's true that Ebonite seems to be in something of a dry spell; nevertheless, it won't shock me at all if they get things rolling and become a major player/seller again. It's happened before, and it will probably happen again at some point.
I certainly hope so, but it seems dubious at best right now. Unless something very dramatic (sudden and positive) happens to them soon, it seems more like the beginning of the end for the brand.
(I think their subordinate brands are doing better than they are, but it's hard to be sure. What happens here via our experience, the diehards, is no indication of what's happening in the bowling world.)
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EBI still sells at least 50% of all bowling ball sold in the world
and that figure comes from a person in the know
how big of a major player do you want
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EBI the four brands, sells a lot. Ebonite themselves has been in a slump as of late it appears. (locally and from reading online)
The V2 line was very popular but I think the One series was right there with it. The One cover is currently used on the Cyclone. That is a lot of awesome for your bowling dollar.
I've not thrown much Ebonite in recent years. I think they are in a transition. It only takes ONE ball to really get things turned around again.
What ball will be The One to do it.........
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EBI still sells at least 50% of all bowling ball sold in the world
and that figure comes from a person in the know
how big of a major player do you want
That implies that that person knows the totals of every manufacturer, both public and private. That is not logical; therefore I doubt the veracity of that statement.
Please provide some manner in which it can be believed that any one person would know the EXACT number of balls sold by every manufacturer in every market in the world.
Edited: I see evidence for your statement further on. Thank you.
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EBI the four brands, sells a lot. Ebonite themselves has been in a slump as of late it appears. (locally and from reading online)
The V2 line was very popular but I think the One series was right there with it. The One cover is currently used on the Cyclone. That is a lot of awesome for your bowling dollar.
I've not thrown much Ebonite in recent years. I think they are in a transition. It only takes ONE ball to really get things turned around again.
What ball will be The One to do it.........
I believe that is a reasonable assessment.
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All the major ball manufacturers report ball sales by price category each month to an independent agent and a report is generated with total sales for the industry.
The 50% may be true but more than likely that includes plastic.
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The original Mission isn't from that long ago and it was a solid performer and the Black Widow pearl was a killer ball!!
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All the major ball manufacturers report ball sales by price category each month to an independent agent and a report is generated with total sales for the industry.
The 50% may be true but more than likely that includes plastic.
I didn't know that. Thank you. That sheds more like on the subject.
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Anyone have a link to these results?
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The V2 line was very popular but I think the One series was right there with it. The One cover is currently used on the Cyclone.
I thought (without checking) that the Cyclone cover was the same one used on the Gamebreaker (GB 10.7 ) ... So, did the One have the same cover?
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The results are not made public and are kept pretty confidential. All it shows is total units by price point and month. It is not broken down by manufacturer.
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The V2 line was very popular but I think the One series was right there with it. The One cover is currently used on the Cyclone.
I thought (without checking) that the Cyclone cover was the same one used on the Gamebreaker (GB 10.7 ) ... So, did the One have the same cover?
Yes.
The BIG ONE had GB 12.1 I think.
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i think ebonite should use the gb 10.7 cover on as many balls as they can. its their version of r2s. everything they use it on is a homerun. the one, GB,GB2, cyclone, playmaker, SR300 (i liked that ball)
i forgot about the NV line. they sold a lot around here. everyone i saw seemed to like them , especially the total NV and Complete NV
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Cheech
6/11/15
your wish will come true
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Cheech
6/11/15
your wish will come true
Could this reference have something to do with this post:
http://www.ballreviews.com/ebonite/gamebreaker-2-pearl-t308091.0.html;msg2528436;topicseen#new (http://www.ballreviews.com/ebonite/gamebreaker-2-pearl-t308091.0.html;msg2528436;topicseen#new)
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i think ebonite should use the gb 10.7 cover on as many balls as they can. its their version of r2s. everything they use it on is a homerun. the one, GB,GB2, cyclone, playmaker, SR300 (i liked that ball)
i forgot about the NV line. they sold a lot around here. everyone i saw seemed to like them , especially the total NV and Complete NV
Agree! The GB (good business) coverstock is very versatile. My angular one is still kicking like crazy. has a lot of nicks and scratches on the shell, but still performing. must be at least 800 games.
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This brings up another issue, especially when it comes to value.
For some manufacturers now, the name also helps to extend the value of a line of bowling balls. For example, Brunswick just resurrected the Rhino Pro line and re-released the Gold Rhino Pro. C300 brought back the U2. Hammer brought back the Burgundy.
Obviously, none of thee balls are of the same cover, core, and finish of their originals, but they did bring back something more unique: trust in the brand of the ball, as its reputation has preceded it...
However, nothing from Ebonite in this case. Of the three mentioned above, the U2 would have been the oldest, dating back to 1990. Gold Rhino Pro was 1993. Ebonite has been rather silent on this; not as if they are required to do something, but quite the opposite. They haven't jumped on the bandwagon.
They have some good lines they could do this with: Thunderbolt, Crush, Nitro, Turbo. If half of EBI has done climbed on board with this, I'm surprised Ebonite hasn't.
I know they just revived (more like 'extended') the GB series, but between that, and the Cyclone, it never really was 'dead'. And comparing the time it first came out to the releases of the first U2, Rhino Pro and Burgundy, they are still new and relevant.
BL.
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Don't forget AMF came out with a new Cobra and King Cobra that are a few decades old as well. Same as the others, same name, completely different ball.
3835
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Don't forget AMF came out with a new Cobra and King Cobra that are a few decades old as well. Same as the others, same name, completely different ball.
3835
good point. This even further proves the point. It isn't as if Ebonite doesn't have the solid lines to do this with, but is interesting that they HAVEN'T done this.
BL.
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Sorry, guys, but, for me, the new Gold Rhino, and the Cobras, are virtually totally unrelated to the original balls by the same name. Their ball reactions seem totally different. Their naming was solely a marketing ploy by both manufacturers to take advantage of possibly gullible bowlers. I think that's sad and disreputable.
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Sorry, guys, but, for me, the new Gold Rhino, and the Cobras, are virtually totally unrelated to the original balls by the same name. Their ball reactions seem totally different. Their naming was solely a marketing ploy by both manufacturers to take advantage of possibly gullible bowlers. I think that's sad and disreputable.
We know. That's the point. It isn't that they are related to the original balls, because we know that different technology went into today's version of those balls. The point is that the name and the reputation of the name of the ball precedes the ball itself and how it rolls on the lane. Ebonite and Track are the only brands left under EBI that have not gone down that route, where Hammer, C300, Brunswick, and AMF have.
BL.
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Funny.....I have an old Angular One which I still absolutely love. I had an original One which I once shot 289 with, so I bought a re-make One, and hardly ever use it because the reaction of that ball is completely foreign to me. I also own a Cyclone, with maybe 10 games on it, but I never throw it because I don't match up to it!
I still have two old Vortexes however, that roll excellent, just like the day I bought them. I have a Savage that still hooks like crazy. It used to be one of Ebonite's heavy oil balls, but in today's environment it is more of a medium condition ball.
EBO has got to take a look backwards and see what worked in the past, to get through this present and into the future! (and not just a name change)
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Funny.....I have an old Angular One which I still absolutely love. I had an original One which I once shot 289 with, so I bought a re-make One, and hardly ever use it because the reaction of that ball is completely foreign to me. I also own a Cyclone, with maybe 10 games on it, but I never throw it because I don't match up to it!
I still have two old Vortexes however, that roll excellent, just like the day I bought them. I have a Savage that still hooks like crazy. It used to be one of Ebonite's heavy oil balls, but in today's environment it is more of a medium condition ball.
EBO has got to take a look backwards and see what worked in the past, to get through this present and into the future! (and not just a name change)
I'll agree with that. I'd love to see a Nitro/R, Turbo-X, or something of that nature make a comeback. I remember asking Kim Terrell something about that around the time the Total NV came out, which she stated then that they weren't entertaining the idea at that time. That was 8 years ago, so that could change.
But I used to bowl league with Dave Wodka back in the late 90s/early 2000s, and while he would throw and market new balls for people to use, he always kept his go-to ball in his bag, which was the Matrix Dynasty. He'd talk to you about everything in the Apex line, the Optyx line, and the TPC line, but always pulled out that Dynasty, which confused the hell out of me because the house we were at was a heavy oil house at that time.
I honestly don't know what the answer should be, though I agree that they should look back at what worked and sold for them and hit the drawing board.
Anyone know how well Brunswick's LT-42 (I think that's the right one.. the Petraglia ball?) sold? If sold well, could they put together a ball for Earl?
BL.
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Ebonite re did the Puma and the Nitro before anyone else started re doing product. They used the original core cover for the Puma, not sure on the Nitro.
The One and the Total NV were very successful but not anything I'd rush to remake or renew. They need to focus on moving forward and I think they are.
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Eh, the game breaker 2 and Salute are remakes with slightly tuned cover and cores. The Legacy used the Total NV core. So yes, Ebonite has been trying to replicate some of their former releases.
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The ball with the longest lastng value for me personally is the Ebonite Apex Adrenaline. More than 13 years after purchase it still is a very good combination of midlane push and angular hook on most medium conditions.
I think that the Hammer Arson Low Flare could be a contender for ball of lasting value on burned-up tricky tournament conditions.
Otherwise, the only other balls of lasting value that I've used myself are the Danger Zone and the Ultimate Inferno from Brunswick.
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Ebo had some good ones: mission, the one, total NV. Each one of those lines had some big sellers within each too. I think they need a marketing genius as much as they need help producing better equipment.
I agree that they, Mission, the One series, were good, but they produced nothing in comparison to the Vortex/V2/Gamebreaker balls. I think marketing, or lack thereof, may be one of the missing but vital keys. I am not sure as I am not a corporation.
As much as people liked the Mission, they followed it up with the orange Mission 2, which was terrible. It was a total dud. That put an end to any momentum that the initial Mission had gained them. The Mission 250k was ok, but I don't think too many gave it a chance after the Mission 2.
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just had to chime it again. Longest running ball in my arsenal - PANTERA (OVER 4K games) TIGER (over 3k games). Just shot 897 (4 games) last week with the Pantera. Cover stock has been re-sanded less than a dozen times!! It's partner, the Tiger not has strong as before.. but still slugging it out in light oil conditions.
Waiting for more oil to pull the Apexes out.. but no luck still. ;)