Author Topic: Ebonite Poured Covers (Read 7053 times)

Strider · « **on:** August 09, 2008, 03:26:51 AM »

I posted this under Hammer because there is a recent relevant post. This is a personal theory of mine, based on only what I observe, not on any known fact.

I believe that Ebonite's covers are prone to a little too much variation from ball to ball. A touch too much or too little plasticizer, maybe they cure a little too fast or too slow, I don't know. For every Black Widow (just using a popular ball as an example) that hooked off the lane or kept hooking/hitting strong for many games, I've seen just as many that were much milder or didn't act near the same after X amount of games. You just don't see this constant complaint from other manufacturers.

Remember when Brunswick was having cover issues? Classic Zones and Smokin' Infernos (was there a third one?) were given new pin colors and released as different balls (blems?) because the covers cured too fast and the balls didn't hook near as intended. I believe Ebonite has a similar problem to a lesser degree. There was a huge difference between a red pin and a green pin Classic Zone, but I've seen close to the same difference on some Ebonite/Hammer balls. I haven't seen too many Columbia or Track balls, but I haven't seen the same "problem", at least yet.

I have a Black Widow Bite that I'll use as an example. The ball was marketed as a slightly bigger version of the original Black Widow. Mine doesn't handle near the oil or have near the back end as most of the BW's I saw. I like the ball a lot on shorter PBA type patterns, but the ball didn't fit in my arsenal where I intended. My old Storm Tour Power runs circles around it on heavier patterns. Another guy in my league has a Bite that flares a ton and hooks a lot more than mine. He's got a little more hand than me and drilled his a little stronger, but the difference is night and day.

I'm not trying to start a whine fest, but I'd like to hear other's opinions. I'd also love to hear from people in the industry to see if I'm on the right track.
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charlest · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:32:42 PM »

quote:
That is a lot of flare for a pin position under middle finger.

We're not talking about the pin under the middle finger.
He said the pin was 5" from his PAP.
Pin position with respect to finger is irrelevant.
Pin position w/r to PAP is everything.

quote:

I tend to be a rev dominant person(soft speed) and I do not get 5 inches of flare form that drilling and though my PAP is farther than Striders, I would not drill a ball similar to that even with a strong core and expect much oil handling ability.
I would also expect late flare which tends to make me square up more...

I would expect a low volume condition killer.

My point I would like to see a 4 inch pin to pap drilled bite and see how much oil handling ability it would have...

REgards,

Luckylefty ...
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

We're going WAY, WAY off topic. The Bite was only one example. The drilling is not germane to the topic: inconsistent pourings and their results are the topic.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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LuckyLefty · « **Reply #17 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:38:39 PM »

I just don't know about the pourings. I'm aware of pin to pap. As you are.

Again...the drilling is illustrated in Brunswick drillings as a low volume wet dry killer. The pin is over 1 1/2 inches away from their recommended oil killing setups.

Again...if we assume they are poured fine....I'd love to see him with a 4 inch pin to pap Bite and see the difference.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

cbae · « **Reply #18 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:40:21 PM »

Because the performance of his Bite is not strong he's blaming the cause of inconsistant pour. First drill the ball correct for the intent of use then before saying HIS ball ONLY out of hundreds is the only one with a bad pour.
Correct drill would not bring up the subject. Simple solution, check the other guys Bite (one that hooks more)layout then throw it. If the layout is same as his and it does hook more then he has an issue.

a_ak57 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 09, 2008, 05:17:07 PM »

A 5" drilling isn't that weak on a strong cored ball like the Black Widow Bite, especially because from the picture it appears the mass bias is also in a fairly strong location. I have a Break drilled 5" x 45 degrees and that ball is so strong that it will still occasionally roll out even though it's current cover is at 4000 abralon + polish. As charlest has said, I get a good amount of flare out of that ball as well. I am rev dominant, but not to the point that I can overcome a truly weak layout.

The point in NOT drilling a ball like the BWB or Break with a 3.5" by 45 degree layout or something really strong is because that would be so strong, that the ball would be likely useless as it'd basically grab and burn up 10 feet downlane. I have a lot of my gear drilled with the pin around 5" from my axis, and all of it flares normally and reacts normally.

It's also my feeling that weak layouts are misunderstood. Drill a ball 6" from your axis or so, yes, it won't flare a huge amount and will probably skate and not move much for most bowlers. But I've found that on the correct conditions or with a rev dominant bowler, these layouts will skate, then make a HUGE move in the backend, visually outhooking other equipment that normally appears stronger, in much the same way that a ball like the Green Gargoyle can appear to be "stronger" than something like the solid Ogre, because it will skate then boom off the dry. But now I'm getting off topic.
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- Andy

Edited on 8/9/2008 5:19 PM

Strider · « **Reply #20 on:** August 09, 2008, 05:19:33 PM »

If you're going to continue to argue off topic, at least READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN.

There is no such thing as a CORRECT drill. Look at Michael Fagen's common drilling. If you didn't know his PAP or take it into account, you'd think he'd killed the poor thing by putting the pin an inch left of his middle finger (what would look like his track). But since his PAP is so low and his rev rate is so high, it's perfect for him. With my slight rev dominance, I do much better with weaker drilling's. I haven't seen too many bowlers with any hand drill a ball with a leveraged pin in a while. If it works for you, fine, but don't even to try to tell me I ruined a ball by putting the pin 5" from my PAP (and below the finger line). I'm not necessarily blaming the performance of my Bite on the pour consistency. I wanted something that would be cleaner through the heads and have more recovery at the back than another ball. If I put the pin at 3 3/8 to 4" from my PAP, sure it would flare more. But then I'd have a boat anchor that needed a ton of head oil and clean back ends. What ball doesn't look good under those conditions?

What I'm saying is that I've seen multiples of the same ball (drilled roughly the same) with very different performance. I've seen this from a ton of Ebonite and Hammer balls. The original BW was a ball that looked good in so many people's hands that I decided to try the Bite. If mine would have been one of the good/strong balls, I would still be making the same post, and probably still getting the same idiotic responses.

But since you insist, why doesn't my Bite do much more than my Tsunami? Very similar drill, and I've had them at the same cover prep. The Bite's cover is stronger and the core is MUCH stronger. My MoRich WMB's pin is only about 1/2" stronger than my Bite and it's an early rolling oil eater. I didn't kill that ball by drilling it "weak".
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LuckyLefty · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2008, 05:23:09 PM »

it's the cover.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

charlest · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2008, 05:56:46 PM »

Strider,

Can't say I didn't warn you ....
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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mrbowlingnut · « **Reply #23 on:** August 09, 2008, 06:29:41 PM »

I have had 3 different BW's one pin over 4 1/2 x 4 3/4 mb to pap, 2 balls pin down 4 1/2 pin to pap and 5 inch mb to pap. It could be the cover but I suspect the gas mask core when made shorter becomes a much more arcy type of ball.

The pin down balls were very strong arcing balls, the pin up model has crazy backend but it cracked in half and now is gone. Also one of the pin down balls split in half, so maybe you are on to something with the mixing of these covers.

Got one pin down ball left rarely use it, good ball but for me nothing special and maybe the core height is also a problem for you.

Have two Bite's pin over ring 4 3/4 pin and 4 1/2 to mb these babies move alot on decent oil, they were early run balls so who knows maybe the quality control was better then.

Oh Jeff Ussery where art thou right now???

Edited on 8/9/2008 6:31 PM

dogman666 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 09, 2008, 08:29:52 PM »

Strider,

Can't say if your theory about covers is correct, but will make some obervations about ball death with ebonite covers. I notice that the bowlers that state that their bowl dies fall into one particular group. People who want to hook the whole lane with their shot. Those that play straighter or with smaller swings, say that their balls last for 100's of games. Have bowlers who trade their bowls in(TNV) and claim it does not hook at all, then the ball is put back to factory OOB, and the bowler who buys this used ball, comes back and say it is a great ball and hook monster. Same ball, two differnet view poins. My personal opinion about this whole ball dealth thing, is that is revolves around style of bowling and lane conditions. If you bowl with a Black Widow on mediums conditions, after a certain amount of gains, that ball will be a 600 grit. Oil extraction, take it back to 4000 grit(factory OOB) and your money.Remember, all reactive balls, after a certain amount of use will end up a 600 grit. Make sure you take these balls back to factory OOB after the oil extraction.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2008, 08:59:05 PM »

Sort of kiddin around...but...it may be the cover...but I was wondering if possibly the pin down position was a factor(along the lines of Mr. Bowlingnut above). I notice many of the balls you talk about enjoying have pin up! And pin up quite a bit!

There others you talk about like the WMB however that I agree are pin down. And a NEAR similar pin position.

However I notice that the cover on the WMB....pin down is very dull looking.
The cover on the Tsumami with a pin up pin position in the over 5 inch pin to pap is dramatically different(duller) than other out of box Tsunamis I've seen.

For me....Pins a little farther from my pap 5 to 6 inch range and down and with weak surface are very mild and archy....no matter how new or powerful the coverstock is.

I just wonder if that combination leads to weakness for most normal range rev guys?

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

Strider · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2008, 09:01:15 PM »

Thank you for a few posts on topic. I personally have a spinner and maintain the covers on my equipment. The duller they are or the more oil they are used on, the more often they are cleaned. If I de-oil a ball, I'll dull it to 400-600 for the treatment, then bring it up in steps to where I intend it to be.

I can't really say I've personally had a ball die. My Bite is as strong today as when I bought it (roughly 70 games). I do believe cleaning and keeping up with the cover is 80% of the battle, but even well maintained balls can have issues. My friend Andy had a Killer Instinct Pearl that went completely dead after 80 or so games. We tried every thing we could, but nothing brought it back. I've seen pearls that became less snappy as time went on, but that's the only pearl I've ever seen die hard and fast. That was well before my current theory about Ebonite cover stocks and didn't enter mind until now. That might have just been a bad ball.

I would think the plasticizer would be measured very consistently, but maybe not. The "How it's Made" show that featured Ebonite made the process look pretty low tech, but that's probably all ball manufacturers. I wonder how consistent the cure time/temperature is monitored. Is a few degrees statistically meaningful? Are the cure times consistent withing 5 minutes? One hour? I have no idea.
--------------------
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LuckyLefty · « **Reply #27 on:** August 09, 2008, 09:13:05 PM »

I know it can vary...I have an Xcel Pearl and many guys in our area did too and still do!

That thing is pin UP 5 1/2 inches pin to pap (weak MB position(touching thumb) and is an ANIMAL at the back. This is an older not as oil absorbing coverstock I believe. Can you say....right turn?!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

Oldskool2 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:10:31 AM »

This is my reply on the "disappointment with Hammer" post.
I think Strider's post is worth a dicussion. I don't understand why people go off-topic on this.

What makes me a little mad is, when people say they maintain there equipment well and the ball still died, others state that those people are wrong because their own ball didn't die.

> I think there are more reasons for ball dead then just oil and dirt.

I clean my equipment very well. When they lost performance, some of them I got back to react good again, others stayed dead.

I think it is also in the material itself. the additives that make the urethane proreactive vaporize in time. This happens with all plastics. My neighbor had an plastic ship model, that just crumbled at touch. Maybe that in some balls this happens to fast?

Because some people experience it and others don't with the same type of ball( maintained correctly), maybe it has to do with the consistency in quality of the raw materials.

I think, would this happen with a product other then a bowlingball, the company would get a lot more warranty claims. Now all is due to the owner or use.

When I calculate what the costs per game were for some balls I get a little irritated.

Greetings,

Antoine <

Edited on 8/10/2008 8:14 AM

Edited on 8/10/2008 8:16 AM

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #29 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:20:52 AM »

I'm wondering if per another post out here regarding particles. Is it just these new super oil absorbing covers that are intended to replace particles that is where the problems are coming in?

Note the particle post....

I have many particles from the olden days and many older Ebonite covers!
(I never touch my particles with sandpaper only scotch bright, or abralon).
All of them seem to still be acting like new. I have Icon2s and Icons in my arsenal and a Wow Pearl. All love to hook!

From the olden days of Ebonite I have an Xcel Pearl and Tornado blue pearl.
When I pull them out....they hook!

Maybe it is these new covers...I have heard much of the same regarding the Black Widow. While the old Big Deal(with Gas mask core) that some friends still throw continue to hook.

??

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS were we better off with particles!? If not sanded.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

janderson · « **Reply #30 on:** August 14, 2008, 11:08:29 AM »

quote:
Are the cure times consistent withing 5 minutes?

Strider - did you catch the episode of "How it's Made" on the Discovery Channel Network where they went inside of the Ebonite ball factory? According to the show, cure times for bowling balls at the Ebonite factory are in the seconds, not minutes. It is an automated process, so conceivably, if the machines are not regularly calibrated, one would expect to see variance.

I called the 800 number after the show to order a copy on DVD and was told that whether or not it would be made available on DVD depended solely on demand. Since I happened to catch the first run of the show, it wasn't available yet.

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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row

Author Topic: Ebonite Poured Covers (Read 7053 times)

Strider

Ebonite Poured Covers

charlest

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

LuckyLefty

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

cbae

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

a_ak57

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

Strider

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

LuckyLefty

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

charlest

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

mrbowlingnut

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

dogman666

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

LuckyLefty

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

Strider

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

LuckyLefty

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

Oldskool2

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

LuckyLefty

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers

janderson

Re: Ebonite Poured Covers