BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Hammer => Topic started by: ignitebowling on January 05, 2022, 08:34:11 AM
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Got a chance to do part two comparison on a fresh house condition. More defined friction compared to the previous video. All three had 3000 applied to the finish to try and keep things as similar as possible.
Lot of fun especially looking at the 2011 vs 2020 mid performance technology. According to manufactures todays newer ball should hook off the rack before you have a chance to pick the ball up....is that really the case when comparing old vs new.
The 3D Offset is still looking good in part two. More so then I expected. Part three is going to be ready this time next week when we compare the 3D Offset to the very asymmetrical Hammer Black Widow 2.0 on a fresh house condition.
In the fourth and likely final video we will take all four out for a test drive on a "pattern" to see what it looks like when defined friction moves from the gutter to the middle of the lane. Should be fun.
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Cool video and enjoyed watching it.
I think the reason you feel the 503C was stronger than the Fugitive is simply because the Fugitive used up energy sooner than the 503C. Even on the shot you went flush with the Fugitive, the ball deflected a bit towards the 9 pin instead of continuing more through the 8 pin. Even though they are all at 3000; I still think the cover on the 503 is a little cleaner and therefore a little more pop thus the reason you had to move inside to create some room for the additional angle it had. It is covering more boards the last 20 feet than the Fugitive giving off the impression it is the stronger ball. The cover on the Fugitive is definitely stronger though. The only explanation on the 3D I can think of is that it has mica added in the cover which adds some pop off the friction.
The reason you are not seeing much difference in performance is because you are on a high friction surface with low volume outside 7-8. The number of units outside is not that different to 20 years ago. Five units is still five units (some centers went even lower). However; the volume in the middle has increased a bit and therefore ratios have increased. House conditions 20 years ago were probably more in the 8:1 area and now they can be 15:1. Another variable may be the oil they are using. Some centers still use oil that came out that long ago like Prodigy and Infinity (still shows up on Kegel's website).
What I am most interested in seeing is the difference between the BW 2.0 and 3D Offset. Have to remember that even though you made these comparisons that you are comparing the high performance ball from 20 years ago in the 3D to a current mid performance ball in the Fugitive.
My experience with older stuff is I still have the 3D Pearl (Gunsmoke w/pink engraving) and down here in Tampa, there are a lot of places using lane surfaces from 20+ years ago. I was able to use my 3D playing 12-13 at the arrows out to 5-6-7 and shot 299 with it about a year ago in a day where I went into the closet and thought to myself I wonder what this rolls like now. Granted I am slightly rev dominate now but it isnt like my ball speed is only 15-16 at release (closer to 18.5 - 19 mph). But I think it is pretty cool what you are doing and look forward to the BW/3D comparison video.
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Glad you liked. It has been a lot of fun.
I look at it as a few different things for comparison. One a 1997 high performance vs much newer mid performance stuff. Then the second being the actual head to head of mid performance from 2011 vs 2020. Since both were drilled up this year its more apples to apples for number of games on each ball etc.
One of the reasons I think the house part comparison is relative, because it is what the majority of the consumers are bowling on regularly and what most are comparing their equipment on. Manufactures know this which is why they shoot their comparisons videos on this typically and always add about how the newest technology is why this ball hooks more then the last for todays new conditions, oils, bowlers, etc etc. Is that really true for most bowlers today? So far id say probably not. But that is why Im happy the forth vid will be on a "pattern" to see what the differences look like with more volume and the friction moved from the gutters to the middle of the lane.
In terms of this video with the Fugitive burning up. I get what you are saying but I think if you were here in person it may come across differently. I threw the fewest shots with it before moving on to the 503c which in the same spot was slowing down way too fast and going through the face. Im suggesting if the Fugitive cover was stronger it would also try to read as early as the 503C before dying vs clearing the fronts much easier. The 503C picked up sooner and just kept trying to go left and more left. If i had gone further left with the Fugitive I don't think it would have recovered. Hopefully we see more answered with the last video for these two.
In terms of the Black Widow vs the Offset.......huge difference. Not to spoil anything but it's literally comparing a very strong asymmetrical core to a symmetrical core in reaction. It is likely why "offset" technology isnt used for creating the core shapes we see today as much as other options of creating much stronger asymmetry. Just a guess on my part. The 3D Offset vs Black Widow will be ready to post next Wednesday.
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I see what you are saying. But if we are comparing apples to apples; then wouldnt you compare high end to high end? Everybody knows that high end from 10 years ago is now mid performance and mid performance is now closer to entry level; at least in terms of coverstocks. If you remember, as an example; the cover from the original Ebonite The One (GB 10.7?) was trickled down and used on the Cyclone which was a $139.00 retail ball and that ball was stupid strong at that price point. Another perfect example is the new Scorpion. It is a mid performance ball using the cover from the high end Scandal from around 2015.
Regarding the Fugitive/503C.......I expanded the window to full screen and watched more closely. It is definitely cleaner through the front part of the lane than the Fugitive. The pearl in the cover is what makes it more responsive to the friction on top of the fact there is some asymmetry in the core. You explained perfectly why the cover on the Fugitive is stronger in your last statement saying if you moved into the center of the lane it wont recover. Thats because a ball at 500/2000 with a core that strong is not designed to be played inside out. I have a GB2 Solid that I have this very issue with. I cant play straight because they ball wants to ready too soon and when I get into 3rd-4th arrow, I leave flat 10s all day with it. A ball like the Fugitive is designed for playing straighter when the fronts have heavier volume which I never saw when trying to throw the GB2. Whenever you see guys playing inside with a ball like a GB4; they most likely have polished the cover up to get it to conserve energy. If any ball hits flush and still deflects; it can only be one of two things. The first is that the weight is more like 12 pounds and the second is that it has lost energy before hitting the pocket. The only possible way for someone to play inside 3rd arrow with a ball like the Fugitive at box finish, would be they need the ball speed to get it through the fronts (close to 20 mph) and the rev rate (500+) to get it to change direction at the right time while probably on a pattern like 44 feet in length. Almost put money on it that if the Fugitive was taken all the way up to 4000 and polish (box finish of the 503C) before hitting it with 3000 as opposed to 500/2000 before 3000; you would see a different ball. But watch the video carefully. Every ball with the Fugitive either rolls out and straightens or it hits the pocket and deflects towards the 9 or 10 pin.
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Apples to apples is the mid performance with the 503C to the Fugitive. Part three will be The Black Widow to the 3D Offset. The Widow is no longer high performance in name but is in core strength and cover so it should be fun to see. Do you predict the Black Widow have similar results as the Fugitive in not having enough oil?
Everything else on why the Fugitive is less then 503C in the video I disagree with but part four will hopefully have some answers. Ive not seen other bowlers locally have issues hooking the Fugitive on house conditions. There seem to be plenty of videos of it on youtube as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZPMBX1sEo
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[quote author=TWOHAND834 link=topic=320936.msg2632727#msg2632727 date=164140178
The reason you are not seeing much difference in performance is because you are on a high friction surface with low volume outside 7-8. The number of units outside is not that different to 20 years ago. Five units is still five units (some centers went even lower). However; the volume in the middle has increased a bit and therefore ratios have increased. House conditions 20 years ago were probably more in the 8:1 area and now they can be 15:1. Another variable may be the oil they are using. Some centers still use oil that came out that long ago like Prodigy and Infinity (still shows up on Kegel's website).
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I currently bowl in 4 different house with 4 different conditions. Two of the Maryland houses are high friction houses with the friction built into the whole length of the lanes. That being said, I have not seen any of these houses with a 15:1 ratio of oil, or a decided pool in the middle. In fact, the only house that develops a pool is the Virginia house which actually develops this from folks throwing super shiny pieces and urethane on the fresh house shot to start the night. The house is notorious for being dryish so this is the way folks have learned to combat all that friction, by pushing it down lane. Most of the houses have a fairly flat condition. No longer can I/we depend on hold in front of the pocket area unless we build it up ourselves.
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Jesse,
I see the exact opposite. I, too, bowl in a high friction house. It starts like it is a 38 foot house shot with adult bumpers outside first arrow. By the time we get to about frames 4 or 5 of game 1; the track area carries down considerably and where we would be hitting flush pocket hits is now 2-8-10. Thing is; nobody is using plastic or urethane. My teammates use a Scorpion, Hyroad, and Damn Good Verge. So the only explanation is that the area from 10 to 10 is flooded in the front part of the lane which would then mean the ratio has to be pretty high (no way it can be less that 10:1). To give you an idea as to the outside part of the lane; if I try to play up first arrow, my ball will hit the 4 pin. This is where the term cliff comes from. Some house shots are more tapered so the ball reaction way outside is not as violent and some house shots are cliffed pretty badly to the point if you tried playing outside 5 the ball would hook before it got to the arrows.
I am glad you chimed in with your insights on what you see because it shows all of us many variables can determine what a ball does. We are both on high friction surface yet we see different things. For the first 5 weeks I struggled to average 210 because my strongest ball was a GB2 Pearl and even the cover on that ball was not strong enough. I would play 12 at the arrows out to 8 breakpoint and go 2-8-10. If I made a move right and leaked it out to 5 it would go through the face or even brooklyn. I drilled a Scorpion solely based on Tom Daugherty's ball reaction video and left the cover at 2000. I have averaged 235 with it and raised my season average to 221. Thats what I am trying to explain to Ignite that sometimes your perception is not the actual reality. Your eyes may tell you one thing but the reality is something different. His perception is that the 503 is rolling quicker but the reality is that the cover responds more once it reads the friction due to the pearl additive in the cover. You see the difference when he moves left in the oil the 503 is cleaner and more angular giving off the perception that it is the stronger ball. The Fugitive when it hits the headpin deflects pretty badly instead of continuing towards the 8 pin.
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Jesse,
I see the exact opposite. I, too, bowl in a high friction house. It starts like it is a 38 foot house shot with adult bumpers outside first arrow. By the time we get to about frames 4 or 5 of game 1; the track area carries down considerably and where we would be hitting flush pocket hits is now 2-8-10. Thing is; nobody is using plastic or urethane. My teammates use a Scorpion, Hyroad, and Damn Good Verge. So the only explanation is that the area from 10 to 10 is flooded in the front part of the lane which would then mean the ratio has to be pretty high (no way it can be less that 10:1). To give you an idea as to the outside part of the lane; if I try to play up first arrow, my ball will hit the 4 pin. This is where the term cliff comes from. Some house shots are more tapered so the ball reaction way outside is not as violent and some house shots are cliffed pretty badly to the point if you tried playing outside 5 the ball would hook before it got to the arrows.
I am glad you chimed in with your insights on what you see because it shows all of us many variables can determine what a ball does. We are both on high friction surface yet we see different things. For the first 5 weeks I struggled to average 210 because my strongest ball was a GB2 Pearl and even the cover on that ball was not strong enough. I would play 12 at the arrows out to 8 breakpoint and go 2-8-10. If I made a move right and leaked it out to 5 it would go through the face or even brooklyn. I drilled a Scorpion solely based on Tom Daugherty's ball reaction video and left the cover at 2000. I have averaged 235 with it and raised my season average to 221. Thats what I am trying to explain to Ignite that sometimes your perception is not the actual reality. Your eyes may tell you one thing but the reality is something different. His perception is that the 503 is rolling quicker but the reality is that the cover responds more once it reads the friction due to the pearl additive in the cover. You see the difference when he moves left in the oil the 503 is cleaner and more angular giving off the perception that it is the stronger ball. The Fugitive when it hits the headpin deflects pretty badly instead of continuing towards the 8 pin.
Do you think the Hammer Black Widow 2.0 will have the same issues as the Fugitive? Too strong a coverstock and a much stronger very asymmetric core?
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Twohands is correct in that the Track ball is stronger because it is more responsive to the friction. The Hammer is a terrible core/cover combo that under reacts.
I'll say the Widow will not have the problem turning the corner that the Fugitive has. Better core/cover match.
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Jesse,
I see the exact opposite. I, too, bowl in a high friction house. It starts like it is a 38 foot house shot with adult bumpers outside first arrow. By the time we get to about frames 4 or 5 of game 1; the track area carries down considerably and where we would be hitting flush pocket hits is now 2-8-10. Thing is; nobody is using plastic or urethane. My teammates use a Scorpion, Hyroad, and Damn Good Verge. So the only explanation is that the area from 10 to 10 is flooded in the front part of the lane which would then mean the ratio has to be pretty high (no way it can be less that 10:1). To give you an idea as to the outside part of the lane; if I try to play up first arrow, my ball will hit the 4 pin. This is where the term cliff comes from. Some house shots are more tapered so the ball reaction way outside is not as violent and some house shots are cliffed pretty badly to the point if you tried playing outside 5 the ball would hook before it got to the arrows.
I am glad you chimed in with your insights on what you see because it shows all of us many variables can determine what a ball does. We are both on high friction surface yet we see different things. For the first 5 weeks I struggled to average 210 because my strongest ball was a GB2 Pearl and even the cover on that ball was not strong enough. I would play 12 at the arrows out to 8 breakpoint and go 2-8-10. If I made a move right and leaked it out to 5 it would go through the face or even brooklyn. I drilled a Scorpion solely based on Tom Daugherty's ball reaction video and left the cover at 2000. I have averaged 235 with it and raised my season average to 221. Thats what I am trying to explain to Ignite that sometimes your perception is not the actual reality. Your eyes may tell you one thing but the reality is something different. His perception is that the 503 is rolling quicker but the reality is that the cover responds more once it reads the friction due to the pearl additive in the cover. You see the difference when he moves left in the oil the 503 is cleaner and more angular giving off the perception that it is the stronger ball. The Fugitive when it hits the headpin deflects pretty badly instead of continuing towards the 8 pin.
Do you think the Hammer Black Widow 2.0 will have the same issues as the Fugitive? Too strong a coverstock and a much stronger very asymmetric core?
I could be wrong but here is my thought on what I think the 2.0 is going to do. If you play 10 to 5, the 2.0 is going to read at 25-30 feet and go left through the face. Once you get inside more towards 3rd arrow; it will get through the fronts easier, read the midlane sooner than the 503, and make a strong but continuous move on the backend. Whereas the 503 goes 40 feet and makes a more defined move, the 2.0 will start to slow down and transition about 5 feet sooner. The backend motion will resemble the 3D but just sooner due to the stronger cover.
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Its just the 3D Offset compared to the Black Widow for the third video. Based on your comments about the coverstock strength of the Fugitive being too strong for the condition playing inside to out I was curious if you feel the same will happen for the Black Widow. Not actually comparing the BW to the Fugitive or the 503C, just the BW to the 3D in the third part.
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Its just the 3D Offset compared to the Black Widow for the third video. Based on your comments about the coverstock strength of the Fugitive being too strong for the condition playing inside to out I was curious if you feel the same will happen for the Black Widow. Not actually comparing the BW to the Fugitive or the 503C, just the BW to the 3D in the third part.
I gotcha. That is why I prefaced my last statement saying I could be wrong because I really do not know how much volume is in the front 25 feet. The difference is that the core in the 2.0 is slightly higher RG than the Fugitive but slightly lower than the 3D and the fact it is asymmetric. So it should give added help on the backend. Secondly, the underlying surface on the Fugitive is 500 whereas the 2.0 is a true 2000. So if you were to take the cover on it to 3000, it will be a true 3000 whereas the Fugitive isnt unless you took it back down to 500 and then worked it all the way back up to 3000.
Comparing the 3D to the 2.0; you may not see as huge a difference playing closer to the gutter because of little to no volume. Both balls will most likely check up and go left as soon as it sees the 5 board. If both the 3D and 2.0 are at a true 3000 grit and you throw them around 15-17 at the arrows with a breakpoint around 8-10; the 2.0 should start slowing down around the 30-32 foot mark and transition in to a heavy rolling ball. The 3D I would think would go 42-45 feet before making any attempt to go left. So all things being equal; if the 2.0 hits the pocket, I would think the 3D would be fortunate to hit the headpin and leave a 2 pin. But once again; I could be wrong just because there are other variables in play.
Now......if you throw the 2.0 and it does the same thing as the Fugitive, then it means there isnt enough volume to handle the cover strength and you would need to polish it to get the maximum benefit from it because it is trying to grab the lane surface too quickly, which then in turn will make the 3D look stronger because the cover is weak enough to push and conserve its energy for the backend. But I am very interested to see how the video goes.
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The house condition is kegel stone street if that helps. It recently changed for the better from what we had. Oil Is terrian
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The house condition is kegel stone street if that helps. It recently changed for the better from what we had. Oil Is terrian
Sweet. Thanks for the info. So 42 feet, medium volume, and 10.5:1 ratio. The BW 2.0 should be right at home playing in that 3rd arrow area with breakpoint around 8-10 on the fresh. However, I didnt really know much about terrain until I read up on it. That oil is pretty fascinating in that it adapts to each individual bowler.
One thing I did notice when watching the 503C; is that you appear to have a very end over end type of ball roll which will help make a ball want to rev up faster which then could explain why the Fugitive lacks continuation. So in that regard it will be even more interesting to me as to how the BW 2.0 is going to roll.
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Axis rotation 60, axis tilt 13
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U match up well with that 503C, and my other 2 cents is if "new isn't better' we would have more manufactures out of biz...
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U match up well with that 503C, and my other 2 cents is if "new isn't better' we would have more manufactures out of biz...
If you saw the 5 to 6 shots prior with the 503c prior to getting the 5 or 6 posted you may reconsider lol. It rolls great it's just a lot, a lot earlier then expected.
In regards to the manufactures, we are down to two that produce 90% the market now. The moment they stop saying the next doesn't hook/out perform the last would be the first honest thing they have advertised in a while 😁
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It is the same with golf. Every year they tout the newest irons as the most forgiving and that they help increase spin around the greens. Same with the driver. Every new driver is apparently 10 yards longer than the previous. Yet former players like Nicklaus are saying it is the golf ball that needs to be changed to reel back in the distance.
Regarding bowling; most of us have figured out the industry can be very mix and match. An example is Storm and R2S. How many different balls have had that cover on it and when was that cover first introduced? Seems like only once every few years does a company introduce a new cover and/or core. Even then, 2.55 RG is still 2.55 RG no matter what the core looks like. The biggest difference now regarding cores in intermediate differential or torque. You can have a 2.55 RG on two different cores. However, the difference in .010 and .020 is pretty significant.
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U match up well with that 503C, and my other 2 cents is if "new isn't better' we would have more manufactures out of biz...
That because of marketing and people are gullible as hell. Not to say that there is not some level of truth to today's equipment being "better". Modern day equipment relative to older equipment from 10 to 25 years is stronger ON AVERAGE but that does not mean that newer balls are always stronger than the older stuff. Newer balls are generally more versatile across different pattern lengths and volumes.